Can you identify this cue?
- Thread starter KoolKat9Lives
- Start date
kvinbrwr said:
Kevin, I appreciate your vouching for Tate, and your PM to me . He seems like the real deal, but not being versed well on cues, and having this sold to me as a Palmer, it's hard to accept. Well, it would be easier if it had been mistaken as a Palmer and turned out to be a Balabushka, but not so!
Matt
I have done some internet searching on the prospects that posters here have brought up. I see that many of them operated closely, and shared many influences, if not people or mentors. Interesting!
I sent an email to Paul Rubino (although I have tried this before and struck out). Also to Viking. I have not found a way to contact anyone for Rich, Doc Fry, National, or Karl Mayer. I'm not aware of any presence they may currently have, but if anyone here does, please advise if you would.
If I solve the mystery of the Sphinx, I will post up.
Thanks again,
Matt
I sent an email to Paul Rubino (although I have tried this before and struck out). Also to Viking. I have not found a way to contact anyone for Rich, Doc Fry, National, or Karl Mayer. I'm not aware of any presence they may currently have, but if anyone here does, please advise if you would.
If I solve the mystery of the Sphinx, I will post up.
Thanks again,
Matt
mike walsh may be able to help but;
i do not have any contact info handy. he could help with id for rich/ doc fry possibilities. i will look and see if i have anything for him.
i do not have any contact info handy. he could help with id for rich/ doc fry possibilities. i will look and see if i have anything for him.
It's most certainly not a Palmer. I would say most likely a Rich cue, maybe Karl Mayer.....doubtful Viking, but anything's possible.....except Palmer or Paradise. :smile:
Not Mayer... joint no good, brass no good.. The rounded brass pin and centered metal ring are not Mayer trademarks.
See this weight bolt????
JV
See this weight bolt????
JV
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That would be awesome (to get some Rich info) woody!
I had someone in Viking look at the pic's and claim it was definitely not a Viking. classiccues says it's not a Mayer. So, I am getting closer via emilination.
Here's some new info I got from Dick Abbott. He believes after looking at these same pic's that it could be a Palmer if 1) the shaft was replaced between 78-80 (which I guess it could have been; my memory is lacking on this), 2) if the rubber was replaced, as Dick says "it's not Palmer rubber and it's too big for the cue". Maybe it was, I just don't recall (too much skipping school for maryjane & pool 30-some years ago!). I may vaguely remember my washer going thru my bumper from jamming my cue straight down on the floor after doggin a few...
I believe, IIRC thru the third party, that Dick says it could also be a Rich. Or it could be a cue made by a lesser known cuemaker that was producing in the Philly area at the time and influenced by the cuemakers & similar suppliers that we have been discussing.
The madness of it all!!!
I'll sit idly by hoping woody can hook me up. Thanks again for all the input. :smile: :thumbup:
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the mystery continues
I have been fortunate enough to get more insight from some collectors/cuemakers. First reply I will quote is from Mike Walsh, who then pointed me to Barry Szamboti, who's reply I pasted in after Mike's.
Mike Walsh:
“matt,.. i live near philadelphia and am aware of a local cuemaker who sold his cues at alangers in center city. i'm from bucks county, near where doc frye and gus zamboti lived. i'm an expert on doc's cues and there is no way your cue is his work. i would suggest you send your pictures to barry z to review. gus made a few plain jane cues, you never know.
as far as yours is concerned, sorry but i cant give you a positive id. its like 8 or 10 cues in my collection. beautifully made but i'm just not sure on their origin. the early cuemakers use many similar techniques which doesn't help. in addition, they frequently evolved to different style joints, butts, screws etc. .
my sense is you'll never know for sure. i suggest you just be glad you own such a nice cue and enjoy it. best wishes,...mike”
matt,..i frequented pool halls daily until i went in service in 1970, the only place i recall with upstairs tables was call boulevard billiards. it's still there, on roosevelt boulevard near adams ave. was always a seedy place and now is even worse. the best players in the city were there, and it has a great atmosphere, just like in the movies.
based on your recollection, it's possible the cue you have is from victor billiards. they made tables and sold lots of cues. most were good quality foreign made. as far as i know, they never made cues but sold cues to philly pool rooms made by others. the price you paid is consistent with what they sold.
by 1974 gus was doing custom orders only. his base price was much higher and there was a two year wait. none the less, i suggest you give barry a try. he's very engaging. his emal is; blscues@verizon.net .
never heard of a fedunka. i'd rule out doc, viking, rich and meyer..... frank coster is a penna maker who used a similar joint and always signed under the wrap. up to you if that's worth investigating??
last possibility i'd raise is a philadelphia cue maker named john oakie (unsure of spelling). he was a table mechanic who made cues in his spare time. i have a titlist conversion he did. barry is familiar with him and would be in a better position than i to offer an opinion.
let me know if you every are satisfied your mystery is solved. i'll send you a ciuple of mine to work on next.
one last thing, i'm sure by now you have figured out there are hundreds of cue experts out there. remember most aren't including book authors. best wishes,...mike
From Barry Z:
Hi Matt,
I've looked at the pictures from AZB. I don't have a definate answer for
you as to who made it. It is not a Paradise cue, his cues have a flat tipped joint screw. It could be a Palmer or even a cue made offsite by someone who worked at Palmer. I've been told and even shown a cue that was done by a guy who worked at Palmer, but did some of his own cue work too. I don't know his name though. Or even if this is 100% fact.
Your cue is not something that I would be an expert at identifying. I'm better at Szamboti's and Balabushka cues.
Good luck to you,
Barry
I have been fortunate enough to get more insight from some collectors/cuemakers. First reply I will quote is from Mike Walsh, who then pointed me to Barry Szamboti, who's reply I pasted in after Mike's.
Mike Walsh:
“matt,.. i live near philadelphia and am aware of a local cuemaker who sold his cues at alangers in center city. i'm from bucks county, near where doc frye and gus zamboti lived. i'm an expert on doc's cues and there is no way your cue is his work. i would suggest you send your pictures to barry z to review. gus made a few plain jane cues, you never know.
as far as yours is concerned, sorry but i cant give you a positive id. its like 8 or 10 cues in my collection. beautifully made but i'm just not sure on their origin. the early cuemakers use many similar techniques which doesn't help. in addition, they frequently evolved to different style joints, butts, screws etc. .
my sense is you'll never know for sure. i suggest you just be glad you own such a nice cue and enjoy it. best wishes,...mike”
matt,..i frequented pool halls daily until i went in service in 1970, the only place i recall with upstairs tables was call boulevard billiards. it's still there, on roosevelt boulevard near adams ave. was always a seedy place and now is even worse. the best players in the city were there, and it has a great atmosphere, just like in the movies.
based on your recollection, it's possible the cue you have is from victor billiards. they made tables and sold lots of cues. most were good quality foreign made. as far as i know, they never made cues but sold cues to philly pool rooms made by others. the price you paid is consistent with what they sold.
by 1974 gus was doing custom orders only. his base price was much higher and there was a two year wait. none the less, i suggest you give barry a try. he's very engaging. his emal is; blscues@verizon.net .
never heard of a fedunka. i'd rule out doc, viking, rich and meyer..... frank coster is a penna maker who used a similar joint and always signed under the wrap. up to you if that's worth investigating??
last possibility i'd raise is a philadelphia cue maker named john oakie (unsure of spelling). he was a table mechanic who made cues in his spare time. i have a titlist conversion he did. barry is familiar with him and would be in a better position than i to offer an opinion.
let me know if you every are satisfied your mystery is solved. i'll send you a ciuple of mine to work on next.
one last thing, i'm sure by now you have figured out there are hundreds of cue experts out there. remember most aren't including book authors. best wishes,...mike
From Barry Z:
Hi Matt,
I've looked at the pictures from AZB. I don't have a definate answer for
you as to who made it. It is not a Paradise cue, his cues have a flat tipped joint screw. It could be a Palmer or even a cue made offsite by someone who worked at Palmer. I've been told and even shown a cue that was done by a guy who worked at Palmer, but did some of his own cue work too. I don't know his name though. Or even if this is 100% fact.
Your cue is not something that I would be an expert at identifying. I'm better at Szamboti's and Balabushka cues.
Good luck to you,
Barry
i'm gonna go with you on this one......i'm thinking national, that was sold as a palmer. (scams in poolhalls, are like nuns in church)
if it's not a national, viking is my only other thought.
Since viking is still in business, e-mail them. If they say no, i'd say it's a national.
P.s. Koolkat, i sent ya a pm.
Thanks Marcus. I asked Mike Janis (runs the Viking Tour) to run it up the flag pole at Viking. He responded and stated they said it was not a Viking.
Anyone know how to get up with National Cue, or as close as possible to the source, to confirm or deny?
Thanks!!
Matt
Anyone know how to get up with National Cue, or as close as possible to the source, to confirm or deny?
Thanks!!
Matt
Hi Matt,
I was the guy that gave Woody Mike Walsh's info. He has always been very good with Doc vs. Abe cues. Initially, the cue looks like it could have been made by either, so I wanted to rule those out before taking a guess.
I personally think that the cue was made by one of the guys that worked in Frank Paradise's shop. Mike Fudunka would be the logical choice, as I've seen more of his cues than any of the other guys that worked for Frank, with the obvious exception of Gene Balner (Palmer). The other guys in Frank's shop were Jack Colavita and Harry King, either of which could have also made it, as it is a simple dressed up bar cue that they could have made for a friend or for personal use. I just haven't seen many of their cues floating around (Jack's more than Harry's, but neither is common).
One way or another, it is probably a nice player, and I wish you luck in your search. I'd place a small vcash wager that it's a Fudunka, though.
Regards,
Steve
I was the guy that gave Woody Mike Walsh's info. He has always been very good with Doc vs. Abe cues. Initially, the cue looks like it could have been made by either, so I wanted to rule those out before taking a guess.
I personally think that the cue was made by one of the guys that worked in Frank Paradise's shop. Mike Fudunka would be the logical choice, as I've seen more of his cues than any of the other guys that worked for Frank, with the obvious exception of Gene Balner (Palmer). The other guys in Frank's shop were Jack Colavita and Harry King, either of which could have also made it, as it is a simple dressed up bar cue that they could have made for a friend or for personal use. I just haven't seen many of their cues floating around (Jack's more than Harry's, but neither is common).
One way or another, it is probably a nice player, and I wish you luck in your search. I'd place a small vcash wager that it's a Fudunka, though.
Regards,
Steve
Matt,
Thanks for the PM asking me to explain why I didn't think the cue was a Palmer. The cue looks to me like it was made around 1970 or so. The joint parts on this cue were commonly available from the late 1960's and on, but the configuration is unusual.
If it were a Palmer, the buttcap shown, where it is bored out to recess the rubber bumper, was a technique used on Palmers from about 1975 onward. They did not use a screw in type of bumper, (except on some Adam made Palmers made later) but instead used a plug in style bumper similar to South West, but smaller diameter. So, if it were a Palmer, I would have to assume that someone replaced the weight bolt (which is not a Palmer style bolt) and the bumper.
Palmer rarely used brass rings - if they did it was for cues made after 1980. Most Palmers with metal joint rings used silver in connection with a stainless or a silver joint. They did make cues with brass joints. If a Palmer had a brass joint, it either had solid black joint collars, solid white with black rings, or pearlized joint collars with black rings. I have one Palmer that has a brass joint and brass rings but it was made in the 1980's and the brass rings are thinner and actually not brass but gold colored metal and they are thinner than the ones on your cue.
The thing that really jumped out at me was I've never seen a Palmer with rings centered up on the joint collars. They're usually offset away from the joint ala Schon. So that was why I didn't even wonder if it were a Palmer -or if it were, it had been completely re-worked.
What's making people think it's a Palmer is the plastics used in the butt - again, anybody could have got ahold of these materials and they were popular at the time. There were a lot of small time cue makers at the time.
Unfortunately, look at the people who have seen this cue, Classicues, Dick Abbott, Barry Szamboti, Cueaddicts, Craig Rittel, Fast and Loose - believe me, if this were any easy cue to ID, one of us would have nailed it.
Chris
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National Tournament Chalk Company went out of business in the early 1970's after the company moved to Georgia. National was a very famous company not so much because of the cues they made, but because of the cue makers who were hired to work there.
Below is a list Cue Makers who worked for National Cue:
1) Richard Helmstetter
2) Bob Meucci
3) Paul Huebler
4) Ricco Cervantes
5) Craig Peterson
Richard Helmstetter moved to Chicago, in 1967 after he was hired by National. Richard was hired to establish the cue making division for National, and it was Richards responsibility set-up the machinery and organize the factory for National. Early National cues were unmarked, however, some of the later models did have National Stamped on the Butt Cap.
There is little information concerning National Cues, and there is much conjecture. I personally think these cues should be more collectible than they are, however, I think the fact that are so hard to identify and so little is known about them is a major part of the reason why.
Good Luck in your search, and if anyone has any additional information about Nation, please post it or Pm me with it.
Take care
Thanks Manwon - very informative post.
Yes, if anyone has any idea as to how to contact anyone Manwon has listed within National Cue, please do post or pm.
I'm still fighting!!!
Yes, if anyone has any idea as to how to contact anyone Manwon has listed within National Cue, please do post or pm.
I'm still fighting!!!
Craig,
The joint is pretty close to a National except the one I have (from 1969) has offset brass rings, but they are pretty thick. The strange thing about National of that era was they usued an aluminum insert in the shaft - so I think that gives you something to ID them easier.
Chris
Do you mean under the ferrulle? A threaded dowell? Because there is one. The ferrule recently cracked and I had it replaced. I can not recall what metal it was though (brass or something else).
Damn, you guys know some stuff. I am very grateful. Special thanks too, to Hunter and Tate (I didn't notice you both posted when I saw Manwon's post)
No, the part of the shaft that screws onto the joint screw is called an insert. The National's around that time had a thin aluminum insert - unusual, because almost all others are brass (like yours).
If your ferrule had a screw inside it, it was a screw-on ferrule. The idea behind this was players carried extra tipped ferrules in their cases in the event their tip broke off (now we carry extra shafts). The screws were usually steel. Paradise came up with that idea. That info also helps date the cue to the mid to late 1960's or early 1970's when it was popular. It's almost guaranteed to be an east coast cue maker that had something to do with Paradise and Palmer.
Chris
Chris, I did a refinish on a Nation cue for some one not too long ago, that did have a Brass insert in the shaft and it was marked with National Stamped into the cues butt. I did another refinish around a year ago on a National cue, that was an earlyer model most likely from 68 or 69. This cue had a Nylon insert in the shaft, along with a screw off ferrule with threaded metal tenon like the palmers, I posted photo's of these cue on the forum. I kinda think National was a company that experimented with many different construction tehcniques, do to the number of different styles of the cue makers working there.
Take care Chris