Does sidespin on the break matter/help?

CreeDo

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
In my neverending war against the break I'm wondering what people think about sidespin, with the goal of making a specific ball (probably 1 in the side, but if anyone has other sidespin-related ideas I wanna hear 'em).

I saw a poster recently suggest a little sidespin and a less than full hit lets him make the 1 in the side reliably on a 6 ball rack (which must play pretty close to a 9 ball rack in terms of how the 1 ball reacts, but I could be wrong).

Does the sidespin actually help or is it really down to the fullness of hit and the amount of draw/follow? I know a lot of guys would say to keep away from it on the break as it means an uncontrolled cue ball and increased chance of disaster when you hit hard and off to the side. But I'm willing to try anything if it actually helps make a specific ball every time.
 
CreeDo,

Good question. If that specific ball you're thinking about trying to make consistently is the one in the side, my experience tells me that side-spin is probably less important than attack angle/fullness of hit and probably most important: speed. Draw vs. follow will obviously affect this as we all know from straight pool when throwing kiss shots that are not "on", so maybe go for center ball on the snap to keep this out of the equation.

To illustrate what I mean, try snapping a few racks from the side rail with a full hit on the one (which would be like aiming a straight shot to somewhere on the foot rail). Don't do anything different with each try except for the speed. Make note of where the 1 ball hits the side rail vis-a-vis the side pocket at the different speeds.

Do the same but keep the speed consistent and this time vary the side spin you put on the CB. I'm guessing that speed will alter the course of the one ball more than varying the spin will.

Don't know this for a fact, just going by past observations. But with this method of trials you will at least isolate the variables to see what happens with each of them.

I for one, will be very interested in your results and in fact will try this next time I'm in the hall. If you do this please let us know the results and I will do the same.

Hope this helps.
 
I've tried to use sidespin on the break just out of curiosity, but it makes it too hard to impact the rack correctly, for me anyway.
 
Sidespin can throw the one ball in the opposite direction of the spin, but in my eyes it is more consistent to control the head ball by varying cueball position and speed. The spin will be more effective if the rack is not tight, so if you are playing on a table where it is very difficult to get a tight rack, or you want to take advantage of someone giving you a slug rack, you could try it. I really only use spin on the break if I've settled on using a cut break and I know the cueball will be going to the rail....in that case I'll put some spin to check the cueball off the rail and bring it back out to the center of the table. Regardless, there should be no reason to use more than half a tip of spin..
 
Since we have already argued and debated the point of sidespin transferred from the CB to the OB, in a single CB to OB situation (yes it happens SOME, sometimes under some conditions), that is not the situation with a rack of balls. There is NO transfer of sidespin from the CB to balls in a rack, especially when they are racked tightly. All sidespin on the CB, during the break, can achieve is doing something different with the CB AFTER it contacts a rail. FTR, I agree with TX Poolnut, that all it does is make it more difficult to contact the rack accurately.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
The short answer is: NO, you should not use sidespin on a break.

Here's the long answer:

If you hit the CB off center, some of the cue's energy will go into spinning the CB and less will go into moving the CB forward. Therefore, for a given stroke speed, the CB will have less forward speed when sidespin is used (i.e., you will have less breaking power). Also, if using sidespin, you need to adjust your aim for squirt; otherwise, you won't get a square hit on the lead ball, which is very important for power. Luckily, with a power break shot, swerve is not a significant factor, so if you have a breaking cue with a natural pivot length well matched to your preferred break bridge length, squirt compensation can be automatic for both intentional English (if you use BHE) and unintentional English. For more info, see Diagram 4 (and the related discussion) in my Nov '07 article.

Regards,
Dave


CreeDo said:
In my neverending war against the break I'm wondering what people think about sidespin, with the goal of making a specific ball (probably 1 in the side, but if anyone has other sidespin-related ideas I wanna hear 'em).

I saw a poster recently suggest a little sidespin and a less than full hit lets him make the 1 in the side reliably on a 6 ball rack (which must play pretty close to a 9 ball rack in terms of how the 1 ball reacts, but I could be wrong).

Does the sidespin actually help or is it really down to the fullness of hit and the amount of draw/follow? I know a lot of guys would say to keep away from it on the break as it means an uncontrolled cue ball and increased chance of disaster when you hit hard and off to the side. But I'm willing to try anything if it actually helps make a specific ball every time.
Click to expand...
 
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Very nice explaination Dave! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

dr_dave said:
The short answer is: NO, you should not use sidespin on a break.

Here's the long answer:

If you hit the CB off center, some of the cue's energy will go into spinning the CB and less will go into moving the CB forward. Therefore, for a given stroke speed, the CB will have less forward speed when sidespin is used (i.e., you will have less breaking power). Also, if using sidespin, you need to adjust your aim for squirt; otherwise, you won't get a square hit on the lead ball, which is very important for power. Luckily, with a power break shot, swerve is not a significant factor, so if you have a breaking cue with a natural pivot length well matched to your preferred break bridge length, squirt compensation can be automatic for both intentional and unintentional English if you use BHE. For more info, see Diagram 4 (and the related discussion) in my Nov '07 article.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...
 
Dr. Dave, I just watched your series of instructional videos last night. I have started practicing a lot of the shots and techniques you presented, especially the softer nine ball break. I highly recommend these videos; great job!

For anyone looking for them, they can be found at http://billiards.colostate.edu/
 
It sounds like very few people say it has a definite effect, some are saying it definitely has no effect at all, and most agree that the tradeoff (trying to guess the amount of squirt and controlling speed and tip placement) makes consistent results a real chore.

Bottom line looks like "don't bother".

So far what has worked best for me is to abandon all hope of making a specific ball (because we're not playing with TV equipment) and just play on a table with fast, worn cloth. On a table like that, if I hit hard and square from dead center, I get a ball or two more than 60% of the time, though I can't predict which ball or two.

The idea of making a specific ball still nips at my heels though, it appeals to the anal-retentive OCD control freak in me. I don't like leaving any shot up to randomness in pool.
 
I have days where I try to break normally and end up scratching in the side. This happens to me over and over if I don't make an adjustment. If I apply sidespin to my break, the scratching goes away. I cannot explain why, and as more talented players have already noted, the spin does nothing to the object balls when racked. But the result of "trying" to break with side spin has great results for me.

I also learned a 9-ball break where side spin is applied. Place the cue on the head string half way between the spot and the rail. Do this to the right of the spot if you are right handed. Break for the center of the head ball with left english. If it works, all the balls move to the left, and the nine goes in the right corner all alone. It is a beautiful sight.
 
The idea of making a specific ball still nips at my heels though, it appeals to the anal-retentive OCD control freak in me. I don't like leaving any shot up to randomness in pool.
Click to expand...

If you break from the side rail in 9-Ball, the 1 ball usually goes toward the opposite side pocket, and if it doesn't go in there it often banks toward the corner near where you broke from. It doesn't go in either pocket a majority of the time, or even close to that, but it's something specific to try.

Try hitting the 1 ball slightly offcenter (on the side away from the target side pocket) to enhance your chances.

pj
chgo
 
Stan_CS said:
Dr. Dave, I just watched your series of instructional videos last night. I have started practicing a lot of the shots and techniques you presented, especially the softer nine ball break. I highly recommend these videos; great job!

For anyone looking for them, they can be found at http://billiards.colostate.edu/
Click to expand...
I'm glad you like the videos. I'm also very glad they got you practicing. Did you really watch all of the video (all of the NV and HSV clips)? If so, you must have had a long night!

Regards,
Dave
 
never as simple as it seems

Probably not worth the effort but side can work. I used low left on all breaks for years regardless of where I placed the cue ball. Since it was my standard hit I learned to compensate and of course hit the head ball however I wanted to. The result was explosive spreads with a moderate speed break. I also had an eight ball break working on seven and eight foot tables that usually pocketed four balls, often three if not four, and occasionally one ball. Very rare did I break dry with that break. It usually looked like a trick shot with balls racing for the holes. I had to retire that break because it was literally too good, it killed action!

I largely agree with what has been said, I'd mostly stick with a little high or low as needed and very little side unless you are going to do as I did and devote yourself to one particular hit for the break.

Now I am going to stir the pot. English on a cue ball takes effect on the cue ball after hitting the rack, not just after hitting a rail! The reason is simple. The mass of the rack is far greater than the mass of the cue ball, so it has more effect on the primary forward force of the cue ball. This can allow the secondary force on the cue ball, the spin, to have much more effect after forward motion is checked by impact with the rack.

Hu



CreeDo said:
In my neverending war against the break I'm wondering what people think about sidespin, with the goal of making a specific ball (probably 1 in the side, but if anyone has other sidespin-related ideas I wanna hear 'em).

I saw a poster recently suggest a little sidespin and a less than full hit lets him make the 1 in the side reliably on a 6 ball rack (which must play pretty close to a 9 ball rack in terms of how the 1 ball reacts, but I could be wrong).

Does the sidespin actually help or is it really down to the fullness of hit and the amount of draw/follow? I know a lot of guys would say to keep away from it on the break as it means an uncontrolled cue ball and increased chance of disaster when you hit hard and off to the side. But I'm willing to try anything if it actually helps make a specific ball every time.
Click to expand...
 
CreeDo said:
In my neverending war against the break I'm wondering what people think about sidespin, with the goal of making a specific ball (probably 1 in the side, but if anyone has other sidespin-related ideas I wanna hear 'em).

I saw a poster recently suggest a little sidespin and a less than full hit lets him make the 1 in the side reliably on a 6 ball rack (which must play pretty close to a 9 ball rack in terms of how the 1 ball reacts, but I could be wrong).

Does the sidespin actually help or is it really down to the fullness of hit and the amount of draw/follow? I know a lot of guys would say to keep away from it on the break as it means an uncontrolled cue ball and increased chance of disaster when you hit hard and off to the side. But I'm willing to try anything if it actually helps make a specific ball every time.
Click to expand...

A VERY good 9 ball player once suggested that I use a little right-hand side spin on the break and as soon as I used it, I started making balls on the break. Like many things in pool, this one is eccentric at best. As I became more accurate with my cue ball ont he break, I find that side spin is just eccentric and you risk squirting the cue ball or putting unwanted English on the cue ball increasing chances of a scratch if it hits the side rail.

All that being said, try it for YOURSELF and if it works, continue doing it. If it doesn't work for YOU, put it on the shelf, at least temporarily.

JoeyA

More consistent and tighter racking of the balls will have a better result on making balls on the break than using side spin, imo. I like hitting the one ball, SQUARE. :grin-square:
 
shootingarts >_< ...I'm skeptical on both the idea of retiring a break because it's too good and on the idea of low left making 3+ balls on the break from several positions. I think you must just hit 'em really well and the left was incidental.

Watching those earl videos that recently got posted, it's clear he's playing for the 1 in the side on his 9b break... and without counting individual racks it looks like he gets it about 50%. That's the ball I seldom play for but maybe I should give it another look. It always goes too high for the side pocket on my typical breaks and the 2nd row of balls are the ones that are bound for the side. When I hit the balls nicely I get the 1 in the back right corner, one of those 2nd row balls in the side, and a corner ball goes around 3 rails and drops in one of the corners at the foot of the table.
 
a minor correction

First, I never said I made three or four balls on the break from various positions. This break worked on seven and eight foot home and bar tables placing the cue ball in one exact place. On my home table four balls going was about a 75% thing. Bar tables being bar tables and being at the mercy of the other player's racks as long as the rack wasn't truly ridiculous, the break still resulted in four balls going much of the time and when it didn't often only one ball went awry resulting in a three ball break.

I was exclusively a gambler in those days. I never played in a tournament large or small until my real playing days were done. Try hiding your speed when you are consistently making three or four balls on the break! As I said, the break was retired because it killed action.

By the way, for skeptical try someone making the eight ball on the break the first three times at the table and calling the pocket every time on a bar table playing eight ball! I was on the receiving end of someone doing that their first time on that table. The fourth time the eight was dead on line and stopped less than an inch short of where it was called. I'm not sure if that wasn't deliberate as I had announced I was going to see that break one more time. I was the one doing the racking and while the first rack was good, it wasn't as closely checked as the next three so I will grant it may not have been perfect. The next three racks were perfect, nothing to exploit.

Hu




CreeDo said:
shootingarts >_< ...I'm skeptical on both the idea of retiring a break because it's too good and on the idea of low left making 3+ balls on the break from several positions. I think you must just hit 'em really well and the left was incidental.

Watching those earl videos that recently got posted, it's clear he's playing for the 1 in the side on his 9b break... and without counting individual racks it looks like he gets it about 50%. That's the ball I seldom play for but maybe I should give it another look. It always goes too high for the side pocket on my typical breaks and the 2nd row of balls are the ones that are bound for the side. When I hit the balls nicely I get the 1 in the back right corner, one of those 2nd row balls in the side, and a corner ball goes around 3 rails and drops in one of the corners at the foot of the table.
Click to expand...
 
Works for me

Shoot this break shot straight on with right English and a little draw then with left English with a little draw. Watch the movement of the 6 ball. Right seems to close the angle sending the 6 ball closer to the side pocket.


Line up the cueball with the 1 ball and the 7 ball. The cueball should come straight back from where it started.





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