Respect.

i see both sides but!

I think the big point thats being missed by several is this! Can we not just have more respect for each and are elders. And honestley shawn you do come across pretty crappy with some of your post to say the least! But i think you are deffinetly entitiled to your opinion. The problem with this board is alot of people dont know how to give there opinion with out sometimes being really disrespectful.

Lets be open to others opinions here and learn how to communicate with out making eachother fell like they never want to come back to the forum.

Just so i make my last point understood this goes for everyone on both sides of this arguement.
 
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respect

BUMP-BUMP !!!!Yes!!! what sport can you play with the pros????well im old man, and have played with a few-- min fats-earl s-nick v-stevie m-grady m-paul guarni-mike gullassy-some i cant remember?? but i have never play golf with a pro!!! basketball once with all american from small collage, oh i take it back i did play golf with a pro--billy shaw, pro- hall of famer--football-- and can he hit a mile!!!:confused::confused::p:p
 
calloused and a genuine lack of knowledge

Most if not all agree that true legends should be treated with respect. There are other things at work here also though, people grow calloused to rough language or genuinely have never learned how to speak and write with respect. A young professional man dating my niece got a quick lesson in respect when he spoke to her father too familiarly despite the young man being in his twenties. I find it amusing that my son-in-law who is closer to my age than not will never consider addressing me in any way but as "sir". I do understand however, there are people that I refused to address without putting "Mr" in front of their name. They have earned the respect, maybe through their interaction with me, maybe by their achievements in years past.

I once met an Olympic gold medalist that went on to become a legend in the state university athletic department. I definitely didn't address him like he was a playmate on the street! I was also privileged to have a Hall of Fame member competing in almost all of the local events I competed in. There was occasional good natured banter but I never treated him with anything but respect. He had earned legend status twenty years before I met him, been the best in the world for years. It would be foolish of me to disrespect him asking what has he done today or this week.

Those that respect pool have to respect those that made it what it is today. None of them were perfect people, all were human. It is easier to respect a person who was dead before we were born than one whom we see warts and all but both people are much the same and either should be respected for their accomplishments. Even Earl, perhaps the favorite pin cushion on this forum, has achieved more in pool than over 99% of us ever will and continues to do more in and for pool than 99% of us ever will. Food for thought the next time someone takes aim at an easy target.

Hu
 
Respect!

Great post John and Blackjack, very well said.
We should show respect publicly and in the worlds largest pool forum to our legends of the sport, and not belittle them before the world., no wonder pool is not growing, its because of these people that do this, that our sport is continually dragged beneath its self!

If you don't have something Good to say about somebody, well bite your tounge and move on!


David Harcrow
 
finally some respect !

This is great that some respect is shown on here ,other than the bashing that we usually read !!!!!
Its a very nice change ,and personally ,I would love to see more of it !
 
I'm feel compelled to respond here to some things Grady mentioned in his posts and add a different perspective to this discussion.

I, along with Charlie Williams (like him or not), are
responsible for the recent resurgence of straight pool in this country. He and I planned and presented the first 14.1 world championships in over 15 years. I funded the event, out of my own pocket, without the desire for reimbursement or profit.

Word got out about my involvement, and one day I received a call at Amsterdam billiards, my home room, from Grady mathews. I had only met Grady once before, at the world summit of pool at grandcentral station (a UPA event, I might add). I doubt he remembered me. Anyway, he asked me, rather passionately, if I could invite him to the event. At that time, I had absolutely NO CONTROL OR INPUT ABOUT WHO GETS AN INVITATION OR NOT.

I ended the call by telling Grady I would speak to the promoters, and promised him nothing more.

And that's what I did. I spoke to a few different people at dragon promotions and they ALL told me NO and to stay out of it.

As the event grew closer, I even brought it up again with Charlie and Cindy, separately. Same result.

Not long after that, Grady started attacking dragon promtions, the event and myself on this forum. Wow. I was floored. I had done what I promised. He had went out of his way to DISRESPECT me first.

Grady and I went at it on these boards after that.

To me, Grady was a great player. He has done, and still does a lot for pool. He is also a liar and the most disrectful of all the posters on this board.

What has been the cost of gradys disrespect? What impact has his "followers" attacks on me cost the sport of pool? After the 2nd year of this event, and all it's "controversy", I have withdrawn all of my funding from the sport. No more international, national, regional or local funding. I withdrew my substantial financial support from all levels of pool because it no longer gave me that "warm fuzzy" feeling to do so. I didn't lose anything, I wasn't sponsoring to "promote" anything. Pool and it's fans lost. My life stays the same. Unfortunately, so has pool.

Randy
 
And? Then let them handle their business. I wasn't speaking of "pros" in general, I was speaking specifically about the veterans.

I also feel that when someone chooses to mix it up here then they have to be open to criticism. But do it respectfully.

I have argued with John Schmidt. I think that John understands that while I didn't agree with his premise I totally respect his accomplishments thus far and his contributions to the game.

Other people weren't so diplomatic about it and try to make things personal.

This is all I am saying. Agree or disagree doesn't matter. Just don't go off personally insulting and deriding a veteran professional.

I have seen Grady mix it up in the poolroom for example and have seen him barked at and doing the barking. I can tell you that this is banter among his peers.

When it comes to discussing the ins and outs of professional pool as seen through a pro player's experiences then almost none of us can truly relate.

If Billy Incardona comes on here and tells Grady he is being childish then that's coming from one professional to another, from one person who has "been there" right along with him. If I tell Grady he is being childish and to "suck it up" then I am being disrespectful and speaking from a position of zero understanding for his perspective. It may well be my opinion but out of respect I don't have to put it out there. That's the choice we all have to make.

And if the current pros choose to use this venue to bark at each other then they probably know that somewhere along the line they are doing themselves harm in the eyes of potential sponsors and fans. Or not. Sometimes it's a treat to see them barking at each other. But it's not our place as amateurs to jump in the mix and start insulting them.

I am not advocating that we all bow down like supplicants either. All I am saying is that we try to make our points with respect in a way that speaks to the issue rather than making it personal.

What prompted this post was the FACT that Shawn Armstrong chose to denigrate Grady Mathews with silly comparisons, labeled his grievance as acting childish, and then presumed to tell a lifelong veteran of the sport to just "suck it up". This is just the latest example of such arrogance and disrespect. Shawn makes good points a lot of the time. But sometimes he goes off the reservation and when it's pointed out to him that maybe that wasn't the most tactful way to go he then makes it a point to go even further. If I were Grady I'd turn my back on the board completely. And I am sure some people would applaud that.

For others of us it would a loss.

I agree with most of what you say but neither you or I can change human nature, and sometimes these guys open themselves up. I like Grady, I wish he would post more here and impart some of his knowledge and tell some more stories, but when he goes after Jasmin Ouschan for no good reason do you honestly expect people to simply overlook that? Grady did the same thing last year over the same issue, quit the board...and then came back.


All I'm saying is sometimes these guys bring this on themselves sometimes. I'm not taking sides, just pointing out reality. After all, it's a public forum. If you hook up a loudspeaker downtown and start giving your opinion of various people in the community, you are a fool if you think you aren't going to elicit a response from the general public.
 
I have to take a little different tangent..

on this. Take an extra minute or two before you submit a post and re-read your words. Follow the doctors creed of... 'at first do no harm', and see if your words show DIS-respect. If they do.... figure out why, and when you find that answer you will grow personally.

I keep learning, as I age that words and actions may have more consequence than usually intended, and quite often weren't chosen wisely in the past. From my own experience it is much easier to show respect, when I am not being DIS-respected............... so, if you want to have an on-line discussion with anyone.... don't disrespect them and you may receive what you are looking for................ OR, you can show them disrespect and you will receive the same in return.

IMO the default given to everyone, pro or not, should be to NOT DISrespect them. At least that's my goal...fall short though I may..
...........

td
 
I hate to say it, but pool players have often been their own worst enemies. And that's a fact. I can't tell you how many times they've shot themselves in the foot in the years I've been around. Believe me there have been several good opportunities for pool to blossom and it didn't materialize for one reason or another. More often than not it was the actions of one or more pool players that killed the deal.
 
I'm feel compelled to respond here to some things Grady mentioned in his posts and add a different perspective to this discussion.

I, along with Charlie Williams (like him or not), are
responsible for the recent resurgence of straight pool in this country. He and I planned and presented the first 14.1 world championships in over 15 years. I funded the event, out of my own pocket, without the desire for reimbursement or profit.

Word got out about my involvement, and one day I received a call at Amsterdam billiards, my home room, from Grady mathews. I had only met Grady once before, at the world summit of pool at grandcentral station (a UPA event, I might add). I doubt he remembered me. Anyway, he asked me, rather passionately, if I could invite him to the event. At that time, I had absolutely NO CONTROL OR INPUT ABOUT WHO GETS AN INVITATION OR NOT.

I ended the call by telling Grady I would speak to the promoters, and promised him nothing more.

And that's what I did. I spoke to a few different people at dragon promotions and they ALL told me NO and to stay out of it.

As the event grew closer, I even brought it up again with Charlie and Cindy, separately. Same result.

Not long after that, Grady started attacking dragon promtions, the event and myself on this forum. Wow. I was floored. I had done what I promised. He had went out of his way to DISRESPECT me first.

Grady and I went at it on these boards after that.

To me, Grady was a great player. He has done, and still does a lot for pool. He is also a liar and the most disrectful of all the posters on this board.

What has been the cost of gradys disrespect? What impact has his "followers" attacks on me cost the sport of pool? After the 2nd year of this event, and all it's "controversy", I have withdrawn all of my funding from the sport. No more international, national, regional or local funding. I withdrew my substantial financial support from all levels of pool because it no longer gave me that "warm fuzzy" feeling to do so. I didn't lose anything, I wasn't sponsoring to "promote" anything. Pool and it's fans lost. My life stays the same. Unfortunately, so has pool.

Randy

I have to say that it is unfortunate Randy that you feel this way. It seems that the actions of a few have caused a loss for many. I have had my share of a handful of people who have given me a hard time and it has made me have doubts about continuing devoting my time, energy and money to the game also. I have looked at the 100's more who appreciate what I am doing and what others are doing and it makes it well worth it. :smile:
 
I hate to say it, but pool players have often been their own worst enemies. And that's a fact. I can't tell you how many times they've shot themselves in the foot in the years I've been around. Believe me there have been several good opportunities for pool to blossom and it didn't materialize for one reason or another. More often than not it was the actions of one or more pool players that killed the deal.

I couldn't agree more. Numerous organizations have gotten canned because of the greed/selfishness of a few who have no regard for the whole, apparently.
 
Excuse my ignorance but what is the 'rep system'?

Trust me, you are better off not knowing anything about it!

Members can give you good rep if they like your posts, or if they want to include you in the 'rep orgy', as some people call it. Members can also give you bad(red) rep if they feel you made a bad post, were out of line, called people names, etc. Fundamentally, it is a nice system and can be good, but I wouldn't pay it too much attention, because it kind of lost its purpose.

I will give you a quick idea how it works, and will turn your one green bar into 11 red ones.:p
 
Trust me, you are better off not knowing anything about it!

Members can give you good rep if they like your posts, or if they want to include you in the 'rep orgy', as some people call it. Members can also give you bad(red) rep if they feel you made a bad post, were out of line, called people names, etc. Fundamentally, it is a nice system and can be good, but I wouldn't pay it too much attention, because it kind of lost its purpose.

I will give you a quick idea how it works, and will turn your one green bar into 11 red ones.:p

LOL,thats funny.Trust Rossaroni,you really dont want to know.
 
Great post John! Unfortunately I can't rep you because I have to spread it around.

I don't think we have ever met, but I know we have some friends in common and I look forward to meeting you at some point.

Take care!
 
Learn to read, John. I never insulted Grady once. I said he was being a whiner. I say the same thing to anybody that cries just for the sake of crying. He hasn't got an invite the past 3 years, yet every year around the same time, he puts these posts up.

I have said nothing bad about the man's legacy, or his affect on pool in general. I have bought nearly every one of the man's tapes on kicking and pool. Because I post a difference of opinion means I disrespected the man? Get a life, Barton. Seriously. You come here talking about punching me for what I've said, when you have been the guy insulting people the most of anyone on this board. Because you are captain keyboard and a walking thesaurus, you wax prophetically from your high mountain about YOUR VIEW of the pool world. You can insult anyone you want with free reign, yet someone posts a simple difference of opinion with a "legend", and that gives you the right to call me stupid, moronic, or whatever else you want to come up with?

I don't like jump cues. You have a problem with that. I'm OK with that. I have no problem with Grady. I have started no threads blasting ANY pro on this board. In fact, I don't think I posted a thing the past couple years every time Grady put up a rant post. It's gone far enough. He knows it's an invitational event, and he's been told he's not getting an invite.

Compare it to the greats of the other sports you've been talking about. When is the last time Nicklaus complained about not being invited to ANY event? He's the winningest golfer on the planet, yet you don't hear him publicly complain about lack of invites to events. He had his time. Grady needs to stop opening this issue up every year on this board. He's been told he's not getting an invite. Therefore, the issue is dead. He should just drop it.

Collins, I know you'll respond with something "clever" that calls me dumb, or something else. I'm done with you. You've proven this during your times on ASP, RSB, and AZ. You get your jollies out of confrontation, and somehow you get your rocks off by insulting people behind flowery verse. I am done with you. IGNORE is on, so if you post a response, it's merely to your mass of fans. I know you'll respond, though. You cannot help yourself.

First of all thank you for putting me on ignore. Throughout it all any time I have disagreed with you it's you who eventually resort to personal insults because you cannot make a persuasive argument on logic alone. So with you having me on ignore I can continue to respond to you whenever you post something wacky that is out of line and don't need to worry about you getting personal back at me. Very good idea on your part. Why would I not respond Shawn? You make points above that are absurd so it's only natural that they need correction.

Secondly, it's your opinion that Grady's concerns on this issue are inconsequential. So the way you voice that opinion is to call him a whiner and tell him that he is acting like a child. Maybe you feel that this is your right since you bought all his tapes. I don't know. What I do know is that Grady Mathews wouldn't tell you that you were being childish and a whiner if something similar were going on in your life.

However my point, which you missed yet again, is that even IF Grady IS being a whiner then it's not really your place to tell him that. Nor mine. He is not on your level Shawn, as far as the realm of billiards goes. Not that Grady is any better or worse a human being than you are. But as far as pool goes he is someone whose resume commands respect. So you have the choice to be respectful in your posts or not. I, and others, feel that your posts that I responded to were in fact disrespectful. Now obviously you don't and it's too much for you to handle to hear a guy complain about being unfairly passed over year after year. Of course you completely and utterly forget that the internet affords you the ultimate opportunity to "change the channel" and you can completely skip the threads where Grady voices his grievances. But the voyeur in you won't allow that will it? Of course not. And your lack of manners along with the fact that you are safe at home allows you the freedom to denigrate those you should pay respect to.

That "you" don't get it is clear. This thread serves as a reminder to all the rest of us to perhaps think a little bit before we say something disrespectful to the few veterans of the sport who come here. I know by our conversations that you are one of those people who doesn't even know when you say something wrong and when it's pointed out to you then you practice denial and retaliation instead of reflection on what you said. It's you and people like you who will be responsible for the lack of industry people and veteran and contemporary professional players participating here. People who think it's ok to just say whatever you want to and lecture your betters on how to live their life.

Lastly speaking again to the "issue" of invites. The REASON Grady is not getting an invite has NOTHING to do with his ability. Who cares what individuals in other sports do or don't do. For that matter you have no idea what any particular veteran golfer does or does not complain about. Grady has every right to complain if he wants to. You have every right to not read his complaints. You are not the arbiter of what he has the "right" to complain about in pool or not. Once again you can't shine Grady's shoes when it comes to accomplishments in billiards. Even in the response above you continue to PRESUME to tell Grady what he can say and when he can say it. Well Shawn the league banger in Canada has had enough Grady, he took it for two years and dammit enough is enough, be quiet and suck it up now you old has been..... Don't you feel at that this is a bit harsh for you to lecture Grady like this and call him a child on top of it?

Of course you don't. But luckily most of do which is why you have me on ignore. So you say. I bet you read this anyway, you can't help yourself.
 
Seeing as I'm the only one that John personally attacked in the Grady posts, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this thread was addressed at me. Funny - I've bought Danny Harriman's DVD on here, Jimmy Reid's DVDs from here through Darth's link in the FS section, got an autograph and DVD from John Schmidt through here, have a fairly good relationship with Blackjack, yet I am disrespecting pro players. I post my opinion on Grady not getting invited to an invitational event, and I get challenged to a $10k match against Grady by Barton, and basically told I am the scum of the Earth.

And I'M one of the 5%? Would love to know what I should do to become one of the 95%.

Shawn,

If you can't see where your words are out of line then I can't help you with that. Everyone makes a faux-pas once in a while. This thread was prompted by your comments and your reaction to criticism of them.

Purchasing things does not give you the right to belittle people. You aren't showing respect through buying merchandise. Doing that just shows good sense that you would try and increase your skills by consuming what the pros put out there in the form of instruction. I'd think that you would have a little more sense and not post things that could drive them away. To me it's kind of nice to think I could start a thread or PM John Schmidt or Grady Mathews or Freddy and ask them about a shot or diagram and reasonably expect an answer. However if they are driven from the board then that PM or thread will never get an answer.

And please don't put words in my mouth - you are the one who thinks you are scum of the Earth not me. Anyone who can fix a fiber optic line with the expertise you claim to have is ok with me, I like my internet to keep running. I just think that you can show some respect and step back and apologize when you misspeak.
 
First of all thank you for putting me on ignore. Throughout it all any time I have disagreed with you it's you who eventually resort to personal insults because you cannot make a persuasive argument on logic alone. So with you having me on ignore I can continue to respond to you whenever you post something wacky that is out of line and don't need to worry about you getting personal back at me. Very good idea on your part. Why would I not respond Shawn? You make points above that are absurd so it's only natural that they need correction.

Secondly, it's your opinion that Grady's concerns on this issue are inconsequential. So the way you voice that opinion is to call him a whiner and tell him that he is acting like a child. Maybe you feel that this is your right since you bought all his tapes. I don't know. What I do know is that Grady Mathews wouldn't tell you that you were being childish and a whiner if something similar were going on in your life.

However my point, which you missed yet again, is that even IF Grady IS being a whiner then it's not really your place to tell him that. Nor mine. He is not on your level Shawn, as far as the realm of billiards goes. Not that Grady is any better or worse a human being than you are. But as far as pool goes he is someone whose resume commands respect. So you have the choice to be respectful in your posts or not. I, and others, feel that your posts that I responded to were in fact disrespectful. Now obviously you don't and it's too much for you to handle to hear a guy complain about being unfairly passed over year after year. Of course you completely and utterly forget that the internet affords you the ultimate opportunity to "change the channel" and you can completely skip the threads where Grady voices his grievances. But the voyeur in you won't allow that will it? Of course not. And your lack of manners along with the fact that you are safe at home allows you the freedom to denigrate those you should pay respect to.

That "you" don't get it is clear. This thread serves as a reminder to all the rest of us to perhaps think a little bit before we say something disrespectful to the few veterans of the sport who come here. I know by our conversations that you are one of those people who doesn't even know when you say something wrong and when it's pointed out to you then you practice denial and retaliation instead of reflection on what you said. It's you and people like you who will be responsible for the lack of industry people and veteran and contemporary professional players participating here. People who think it's ok to just say whatever you want to and lecture your betters on how to live their life.

Lastly speaking again to the "issue" of invites. The REASON Grady is not getting an invite has NOTHING to do with his ability. Who cares what individuals in other sports do or don't do. For that matter you have no idea what any particular veteran golfer does or does not complain about. Grady has every right to complain if he wants to. You have every right to not read his complaints. You are not the arbiter of what he has the "right" to complain about in pool or not. Once again you can't shine Grady's shoes when it comes to accomplishments in billiards. Even in the response above you continue to PRESUME to tell Grady what he can say and when he can say it. Well Shawn the league banger in Canada has had enough Grady, he took it for two years and dammit enough is enough, be quiet and suck it up now you old has been..... Don't you feel at that this is a bit harsh for you to lecture Grady like this and call him a child on top of it?

Of course you don't. But luckily most of do which is why you have me on ignore. So you say. I bet you read this anyway, you can't help yourself.

My reply (and this will be my last as I am done with this subject) is only that in bold. You could of course PM an answer if you want a reply, but I won't reply to any more of these threads as it is too much BS drama for my liking.

Have ya ever had a disrespectful thing to say about a President? I ask this because you are not on their level. You could say the same for any politician. To say that you can't say something about someone because they are above you is ridiculous in so many ways I can't even begin to count them. It's like saying the whole world can't say a thing about Earl's behavior because he is above 99.99999999999999999999999999% of us and I'm sure I could add a whole helluva lot more 9s to that.

After 4 years of not being invited and not going to qualifiers (that I am unsure of as I do not know if he did go or not so take that with a grain of salt) it is very easy to understand how quite a few people will perceive this as whining. The first two times and yea I can understand, but after four years and you're still not entering a qualifier to do something about it and then people will call it whining regardless of credentials.

I come from a world of earning your place and you keep earning it. You don't just go to college, get an A for the year and you are given that A for the rest of your college experience. The reason why that doesn't happen is because the real world doesn't work that way. In the real world you earn your spot and you continue to earn to keep it.

I am sure you will mention Yu Ram Cha as far as earning. CW is the promoter and he earned the spot for her and that is the end of that story. He's the boss and he has earned the right to decide who gets invited.
 
I'm feel compelled to respond here to some things Grady mentioned in his posts and add a different perspective to this discussion.

I, along with Charlie Williams (like him or not), are
responsible for the recent resurgence of straight pool in this country. He and I planned and presented the first 14.1 world championships in over 15 years. I funded the event, out of my own pocket, without the desire for reimbursement or profit.

Word got out about my involvement, and one day I received a call at Amsterdam billiards, my home room, from Grady mathews. I had only met Grady once before, at the world summit of pool at grandcentral station (a UPA event, I might add). I doubt he remembered me. Anyway, he asked me, rather passionately, if I could invite him to the event. At that time, I had absolutely NO CONTROL OR INPUT ABOUT WHO GETS AN INVITATION OR NOT.

I ended the call by telling Grady I would speak to the promoters, and promised him nothing more.

And that's what I did. I spoke to a few different people at dragon promotions and they ALL told me NO and to stay out of it.

As the event grew closer, I even brought it up again with Charlie and Cindy, separately. Same result.

Not long after that, Grady started attacking dragon promtions, the event and myself on this forum. Wow. I was floored. I had done what I promised. He had went out of his way to DISRESPECT me first.

Grady and I went at it on these boards after that.

To me, Grady was a great player. He has done, and still does a lot for pool. He is also a liar and the most disrectful of all the posters on this board.

What has been the cost of gradys disrespect? What impact has his "followers" attacks on me cost the sport of pool? After the 2nd year of this event, and all it's "controversy", I have withdrawn all of my funding from the sport. No more international, national, regional or local funding. I withdrew my substantial financial support from all levels of pool because it no longer gave me that "warm fuzzy" feeling to do so. I didn't lose anything, I wasn't sponsoring to "promote" anything. Pool and it's fans lost. My life stays the same. Unfortunately, so has pool.

Randy

It sounds like you did do your part. And it sounds as if politics was in fact still in play before Grady even called you.

I find it rather disingenious of you to blame your withdrawl all on Grady.

While you call it a "resurgence" in Straight Pool it's in fact not. You put your money into a corruption of what Straight Pool used to be about. When you were made aware of that corruption you didn't use your influence to attempt to fix it and insure that the tournament was filled with ONLY qualified players. Instead you sat by and watched as DP put in fluff players alongside the bonafide 14.1 champions.

I would have hoped Mr. Goldwater that you would have exerted a little more pressure to insure that field was fairly filled. Not that Grady would have received an invite under another system but certainly under a fair one people who can't even spell straight pool shouldn't be playing in his place.

But that's another story. This thread is simply not about the specific situation and what transpired. It's simply about the fact that veteran players on this board deserve to be treated respectfully.

As for financial support of pool I'd venture to say that Grady has promoted more events and produced more Champions over his life than you would have even if you had not lost the warm and fuzzy feeling. Only you can know that. What I do know is that Grady's record of events is in the history books and how he handled those events is as well and no player was barred.

But thank you for the two events you did lend your support to. Pool appreciates it. Pool is not dead however and others have stepped in to fill the void. As we speak there is going to be a tournament in Galveston with over a million dollars up for grabs. No one is barred from playing. Someone else with a lot of money got the warm and fuzzy pool bug and they are doing the event themselves. Someone always comes along with bigger and better things.

Hope you get the warm and fuzzy feeling back because pool is a fantastic game. It would be nice to have your financial support as it's always nice to have a sponsor but really what pool wants is for you to just enjoy playing.
 
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