mike mccuene
- Thread starter JasonCrugar
- Start date
Okay, it was my fault. I'm the guy who rated him. I'm sorry I didn't have any tournament to rate him in because we don't run tournaments where I work, but I did have him play 10 games of 8-Ball on a bar table and scored him with a system similar to Accu-Stats. After that, I took two different rating guidelines charts and compared them to his shooting score. Everything said he was a 5 level player.
For his rating session, the table cost him $7.50. He also drank 3 beers during that time which must have cost him another $9.00. These were little indicators that told me the guy wasn't scamming. Plus, he gave me the story that he had recently been laid off from his job in Wis. and at the invite of his aunt who lives here, he and his wife came out to find employment and settle here. Then he told me that as he likes pool, and has played in a few little tournaments back home, he thought he would like to play in some tournaments in Phoenix and that's why he wanted a rating. When I suggested that he start with a league, he said he was not ready to make that commitment since he didn't know if he would be able to stay. To top it all off, I played off-handed as his opponent in the scoring session and beat him 9 out of 10 games. I mean the guy played so bad that I felt sorry for him and was trying to give him pointers in how to play safe. For all of this, I received no money of any kind. I did it at the request of the owner of the pool room where I work, and as (what I thought was) a service to the pool community at large.
Now I used every device I had at my disposal to render a proper rating on this guy, and it turns out that the one tool I really needed was a polygraph machine. But I'm sure it's still my fault that this guy turned out to be a hustler. I should have had that polygraph machine or the gift of ESP to make sure he played it honest.
Maybe the local pool community should file a class-action lawsuit against me?
Roger Long
(So they can get the name right in court documents)
This guy has probably spent decades cultivating a perfect hustle. Sometimes you just don't know what the truth is until after the fact. But his action is pretty much dead in a lot of places now.
Why in the world is this post soooo hard on the hustler when people almost always aspire to hustle? Next time someone offers you the 7 and you know you dont need it...tell them no and play even. Imagine that. We all talk about how we get overspotted and run over someone, he did it tournament style to minimize his risk I dont blame him. He probably came with $50 and left with a grand, hows that for return on investment. Give the guy a break, he won the cash, now you guys know the deal(start high).
I'll give an example, about two years back I went to a tourney at Brass Tap in NC. Lil Pee Wee told me straight up, he dont know me I gotta start as a 10. Point of reference players like Sam Monday and Mike Fuller are 11's in this handicap system. I got tortured for months before he said I should be a 7 and that's where i played until I left. Towards the end I won 2 tourneys straight and ppl complained...Lil Pee Wee said you guys didnt complain when he spent about $300 on entry fees losing first round in single elimination tourneys. Thats how it should be!!! Lesson learned, knowledge earned. Cheers
I'll give an example, about two years back I went to a tourney at Brass Tap in NC. Lil Pee Wee told me straight up, he dont know me I gotta start as a 10. Point of reference players like Sam Monday and Mike Fuller are 11's in this handicap system. I got tortured for months before he said I should be a 7 and that's where i played until I left. Towards the end I won 2 tourneys straight and ppl complained...Lil Pee Wee said you guys didnt complain when he spent about $300 on entry fees losing first round in single elimination tourneys. Thats how it should be!!! Lesson learned, knowledge earned. Cheers
Roger - Let me get my pitch fork, ha ha ha.
I spoke with the owner of Bullshooters an hour ago and he stated that something seemed fishy with this guy. Anyone who was so eager to get rated and then played that bad was up to something. A 5 rated player is one step above a first time cue holder, so making 1 or 2 balls with no shape is pretty common.
Lesson learned...
We all know there are these scumbags all over the place. The Rating System in Arizona is in place to support rooms and allow players of all ability to be able to compete. Going in and robbing a tournament of 4's, 5's and 6's is as low as it gets.
Gambling is another whole issue. This guy had a plan and support from Harry to do it. I met Harry a few years back as he subbed for our league a few times. Didn't think he'd try and rob some beginners.
This tournament was a $200 added, $20 entry tournament for lower rated players. These tournaments don't come around a lot and allow these players to win some real cash. Just a shame. Kind of have that same feeling in my stomach like when you hear of con artists ripping off some little old lady for her life savings.
I spoke with the owner of Bullshooters an hour ago and he stated that something seemed fishy with this guy. Anyone who was so eager to get rated and then played that bad was up to something. A 5 rated player is one step above a first time cue holder, so making 1 or 2 balls with no shape is pretty common.
Lesson learned...
We all know there are these scumbags all over the place. The Rating System in Arizona is in place to support rooms and allow players of all ability to be able to compete. Going in and robbing a tournament of 4's, 5's and 6's is as low as it gets.
Gambling is another whole issue. This guy had a plan and support from Harry to do it. I met Harry a few years back as he subbed for our league a few times. Didn't think he'd try and rob some beginners.
This tournament was a $200 added, $20 entry tournament for lower rated players. These tournaments don't come around a lot and allow these players to win some real cash. Just a shame. Kind of have that same feeling in my stomach like when you hear of con artists ripping off some little old lady for her life savings.
I don't think that there is a person out there who knows you Roger, that would think you did anything less than an honest evaluation done with integrity and lack of bias. With that said, this is a flaw in the system that needs to be addressed. There are thousands of players out there who wouldn't mind sneaking in this way and stealing some cash. Many do so in a much smaller way, less visible tourneys, less money involved, better stall.
IMO it really doesn't matter unless they're winning the cash. Once a stranger does that .... bells and whistles, sirens, flashing lights should go off in any TD's or room owners mind about this person the next time around. I have the utmost respect for Jaz and how he handles this kind of situation on a regular basis. Anyone can get fooled once.... but twice in a row... then 3 times in a row!!????
If I get into a tournament, I expect it to be fair and unbiased, and for whoever is in charge of it to handle any problems in that manner. In our area with the ratings, handicap system we have.... the one and only linchpin to the success is that all feel (or are at least almost in full agreement) that people are at the appropriate level on the sheet. The TD is in charge of all the entrants to assure fairness, and the system needs to allow for immediate reaction from a TD and/or room owner to correctly handle this kind of situation. We've all played above our heads from time to time, but for strangers to come in and rape the system like this hurts the overall scene here greatly IMO.
Hopefully, this situation can start a dialogue to address the failures. I think we've just had it so good here, for so long, that reactions were complacent. Maybe if we learn here, things can get even better in the future.
Rant over,
td
Roger, you did nothing wrong at all, your a good decent guy, he just was looking to get over and did. It could always happen to anyone, if a guy wants to play on the lemon then it can be done with ease, make a ball here and there, no safes and no position, get a low rating and play a few cheap tournies and when a big one comes along snap it off. 
The system works when someone is playing their true game. Since a polygraph isn't available
D) I think a simpler, more generalized way of rating a new player would've been more beneficial.Its been many yrs since I was involved with handicap tournaments. Sometimes I used to help out the room owner and run his weekly handicap tournament so he could have a break. The rules were pretty straight forward. The ratings were 2 to 7 and unless a player was known locally or nationally (road player, pro) new people were told they would start as a 5 and if the TD decided they were better or worse, they would change their rating (mid-game if need be). Any new player was watched very carefully by the TD. Plenty of great players tried to sneak in as a 5 but none of them won it as a 5. Some did win the first time around but only after they had been moved up to a 7.
The one rule that seemed to be universal in every handicap tournament I played in was that if you won, your ranking moved up a spot.
It sounds like the AZ rating system is a good system for leagues and tournaments for local players. If most new comers are rated by the way Mr. Long rated this guy, then they're ultimately relying on honesty (a guy playing his true speed) in order to rate people and that seems to be where the problem is. Maybe the powers that be can come up with something different for new comers. Something as simple as the scenario I mentioned. It would certainly save some time as it sounds as if the rating system can be a little time consuming.
Hi Jason,
Funny I've never put you together from the forum to Sweet Tooth's, but now I know who I'm talking to! This is Steve Feld, the third place guy at the 6 and Under Tourney. I just figured I'd add my two cents since this duo probably beat me out of a couple hundred extra bucks in the tourney and the Calcutta.
This was disappointing for a number of reasons. I have been a 6 rated player for quite some time now. When I was first rated, I played in several tournaments and was basically a punching bag for every 6 rated player in Phoenix.
After these initial tournies, I decided I had better learn a few things about the game before I tried another one. I have always had a fairly decent game, but as soon as someone would mention "tournament", I suddenly couldn't finish a game to save my life. I'd make a good run or two, but would choke on the last ball or two time after time. I can't tell you how many times I left an easy 8 or a 9 ball jawed in the pocket for an easy win for my opponent.
I played exclusively out of Click's, and after my initial exposure to tournament play, I was happy to just play past time pool with my novice girlfriend, so I could help her learn a new game.
I've always been a competitive kind of guy, and after awhile, AZB's own Bad Company approached me and said that if I ever wanted to get any better, that I needed to mix it up a little and play somebody different from time to time. He said that a few cheap sets might help me to focus and provide the proper incentive to get better without the stigma of choking in tournaments. I took his advice and started donating to the locals at Click's. I lost and lost, but it was like taking cheap lessons. Next thing you know, I'm winning a couple of games and an occasional set.
A couple of months ago, I thought I was ready to try a tournament or two to see if I'd made any improvement. It's tough to know when you play the same people on a regular basis. I played in a couple of tournaments and did pretty well, but since there's been a noticeable disappearance of 6 and Under tournies in Phoenix, I always ended up playing in handicapped tournies where I would usually lose, but I did feel I'd improved my game. When I heard about the Sweet Tooth tourney for 6's, I thought I'd finally get to see how I really stacked up against other 6's.
I practiced hard for a couple of months. I watched other 6's in a couple of Scotch matches I entered. My feeling was that I had probably gotten better, but really didn't have a clue as to how much.
When Sweet Tooth's 6 and Under came around, I was excited and invited family members to come and spectate. I came real close to getting my butt handed to me in the first match by Angel Tafoya. After she started off with a commanding lead, I ground my way back and clipped her on the hill. I played a couple more matches and thought I was shooting real sporty (for me). I have to say that I felt I was playing as strong as I've ever played. I made it through the winner's side and there's where the fun began.
In the hotseat match, I played strong and got beat like a red headed step child. I've donated to quite a few local 8's and 9's and this guy Mike seemed to be as good as any I'd ever played. The final score was actually 6-4 (not 6-3), but I never really felt I was in the game. He started out ahead and seemed to let up at the right times to keep the match even. I really did wonder how he'd gotten such a low rating, as most of the out of town guys I've played in the past had to start out at a higher rating until they could be properly rated. I had a fleeting feeling that my best just might not be good enough.
The match between the winner of the losers side and I almost assured me that I still had a lot of work to do to be competitive enough to win or place in a 6 and under tournament. Tom was not shooting on the same level as Mike at all (or at least played the part well)! He just barely stayed a game up on me from the start. We went down to hill-hill and Tom just kinda seemed like he was getting the rolls. At the end of the game, we had the seven close to one corner with the eight right by the pocket across the short rail and the nine ball was in the middle of the table right between the side pockets. Tom shot the six in and then made what I thought was a mistake by drifting the seven down the rail even closer to the corner pocket, but then the cue ball just sort of ended up right in back of, and frozen to the nine ball. I kicked at the seven and scratched leaving him an easy three ball out with ball in hand.
I stayed just for a short time after the game was over and watched the first couple of games between Mike and Tom. I told my niece and her boyfriend that it wasn't going to be much of a game, as I felt Mike would take care of Tom as easily as he beat me. Imagine my surprise when I stood there and watched Mike miss every other shot, scratch like someone who had no idea where the cue ball was going after the shot, etc. I suddenly had the distinct feeling I'd just been hustled!
I have absolutely no animosity toward anyone involved with these guys getting rated like they did, as they were pretty solid actors. They were both pretty likeable guys, too. I think that once I realized they'd arrived in the same car, I was starting to have some suspicions, but I didn't really entertain the idea that somebody would actually hustle a match for lower rated players. On the way home, it hit me that the way they could maximize their winnings was to have Tom beat Mike, but I dismissed it thinking it was just sour grapes on my part for losing the match with Tom that cost me a couple hundred bucks for the difference between second and third place. I didn't really have any illusions about beating Mike, especially twice, but I thought I might have actually won it, if those guys hadn't been in it. Maybe that wouldn't have been the case, as I surely would have had some great competition from a couple of the people they beat earlier, but I felt I'd at least have had a chance...
I think Mike's tournaments are some of the best I've ever played in, and I hope this doesn't discourage him from having more tournaments like this one. I also hope that some of the other 6 rated players don't get discouraged. Some were playing very well, and to get beat by these guys sure wasn't right!
There's always going to be somebody figuring out how to get around the rules, but that's life. Thank you, Jason, for all your hard work! I'll be back...
Steve Feld
Funny I've never put you together from the forum to Sweet Tooth's, but now I know who I'm talking to! This is Steve Feld, the third place guy at the 6 and Under Tourney. I just figured I'd add my two cents since this duo probably beat me out of a couple hundred extra bucks in the tourney and the Calcutta.
This was disappointing for a number of reasons. I have been a 6 rated player for quite some time now. When I was first rated, I played in several tournaments and was basically a punching bag for every 6 rated player in Phoenix.
After these initial tournies, I decided I had better learn a few things about the game before I tried another one. I have always had a fairly decent game, but as soon as someone would mention "tournament", I suddenly couldn't finish a game to save my life. I'd make a good run or two, but would choke on the last ball or two time after time. I can't tell you how many times I left an easy 8 or a 9 ball jawed in the pocket for an easy win for my opponent.
I played exclusively out of Click's, and after my initial exposure to tournament play, I was happy to just play past time pool with my novice girlfriend, so I could help her learn a new game.
I've always been a competitive kind of guy, and after awhile, AZB's own Bad Company approached me and said that if I ever wanted to get any better, that I needed to mix it up a little and play somebody different from time to time. He said that a few cheap sets might help me to focus and provide the proper incentive to get better without the stigma of choking in tournaments. I took his advice and started donating to the locals at Click's. I lost and lost, but it was like taking cheap lessons. Next thing you know, I'm winning a couple of games and an occasional set.
A couple of months ago, I thought I was ready to try a tournament or two to see if I'd made any improvement. It's tough to know when you play the same people on a regular basis. I played in a couple of tournaments and did pretty well, but since there's been a noticeable disappearance of 6 and Under tournies in Phoenix, I always ended up playing in handicapped tournies where I would usually lose, but I did feel I'd improved my game. When I heard about the Sweet Tooth tourney for 6's, I thought I'd finally get to see how I really stacked up against other 6's.
I practiced hard for a couple of months. I watched other 6's in a couple of Scotch matches I entered. My feeling was that I had probably gotten better, but really didn't have a clue as to how much.
When Sweet Tooth's 6 and Under came around, I was excited and invited family members to come and spectate. I came real close to getting my butt handed to me in the first match by Angel Tafoya. After she started off with a commanding lead, I ground my way back and clipped her on the hill. I played a couple more matches and thought I was shooting real sporty (for me). I have to say that I felt I was playing as strong as I've ever played. I made it through the winner's side and there's where the fun began.
In the hotseat match, I played strong and got beat like a red headed step child. I've donated to quite a few local 8's and 9's and this guy Mike seemed to be as good as any I'd ever played. The final score was actually 6-4 (not 6-3), but I never really felt I was in the game. He started out ahead and seemed to let up at the right times to keep the match even. I really did wonder how he'd gotten such a low rating, as most of the out of town guys I've played in the past had to start out at a higher rating until they could be properly rated. I had a fleeting feeling that my best just might not be good enough.
The match between the winner of the losers side and I almost assured me that I still had a lot of work to do to be competitive enough to win or place in a 6 and under tournament. Tom was not shooting on the same level as Mike at all (or at least played the part well)! He just barely stayed a game up on me from the start. We went down to hill-hill and Tom just kinda seemed like he was getting the rolls. At the end of the game, we had the seven close to one corner with the eight right by the pocket across the short rail and the nine ball was in the middle of the table right between the side pockets. Tom shot the six in and then made what I thought was a mistake by drifting the seven down the rail even closer to the corner pocket, but then the cue ball just sort of ended up right in back of, and frozen to the nine ball. I kicked at the seven and scratched leaving him an easy three ball out with ball in hand.
I stayed just for a short time after the game was over and watched the first couple of games between Mike and Tom. I told my niece and her boyfriend that it wasn't going to be much of a game, as I felt Mike would take care of Tom as easily as he beat me. Imagine my surprise when I stood there and watched Mike miss every other shot, scratch like someone who had no idea where the cue ball was going after the shot, etc. I suddenly had the distinct feeling I'd just been hustled!
I have absolutely no animosity toward anyone involved with these guys getting rated like they did, as they were pretty solid actors. They were both pretty likeable guys, too. I think that once I realized they'd arrived in the same car, I was starting to have some suspicions, but I didn't really entertain the idea that somebody would actually hustle a match for lower rated players. On the way home, it hit me that the way they could maximize their winnings was to have Tom beat Mike, but I dismissed it thinking it was just sour grapes on my part for losing the match with Tom that cost me a couple hundred bucks for the difference between second and third place. I didn't really have any illusions about beating Mike, especially twice, but I thought I might have actually won it, if those guys hadn't been in it. Maybe that wouldn't have been the case, as I surely would have had some great competition from a couple of the people they beat earlier, but I felt I'd at least have had a chance...
I think Mike's tournaments are some of the best I've ever played in, and I hope this doesn't discourage him from having more tournaments like this one. I also hope that some of the other 6 rated players don't get discouraged. Some were playing very well, and to get beat by these guys sure wasn't right!
There's always going to be somebody figuring out how to get around the rules, but that's life. Thank you, Jason, for all your hard work! I'll be back...
Steve Feld
The sad truth and a positive outlook, how refreshing! Thank you, Mr. Feld. :thumbup:
Pandizzle
New member
hey roger this is michelle jason girlfriend. this guy was pretty good at fooling people, he played baddly to get that rating so he can scam people, and win the money. him and his buddies had a plan rip off tournaments. and on sunday at the final match him and his friends ordered a pizza from sweet tooths, while putting on a good act for all to see and adding to the pudding. and when he was not playing, him and his buddie sat by themselfs they did not talk to no one and when brian confronted him, mr. mccune had nothing to say, his friend harry was saying it for him making up excuess why he played bad in last match and even when mike ohera told then not to come back they all just walked out and said nothing they knew they had been caught.
i have spent many nights watching pool players. i see real players act and i seen how they acted they acted way different.
so roger what i an saying is that you are not to blame. it mr. mccure who is to blame not you.
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I don't know Roger, but from everything I can see he is a man of honesty and integrity. Roger may not be the one to "blame", but there is a responsibilty of the TD to manage this type of situation. It is not the first or last time it will be attempted.
To Roger: Just chalk this one up to experience and learn from it. As suggested by others...watch new players closely and manage their handicaps on the fly.
Good luck in the future.
i am the t.d. in the tournament. once again if i throw everyone out suspected of laying down and trying to rob these tournament we would scare people off of tourny and it would be like all the other states that have 1 weekly tourny in the whole state. the situation was managed correctly because he was raised him because his play was above his rating and when i seen his skill set was far above it and he pulled a move on us to rob a C tourny made me sick. its not about the money he got away with its the act of deception and bald ass lying to our faces and taking a tourny away from the 6's that usually get their face beat in at all the other tourny's. i will say it again it's not about the money it's the douchebaggery he is guilty of!
MIC FLY AZ
Registered
I am the guy that bought the garbage sack full of pudding in the Calcutta. That is freaking hilarious Jason!
I would like to say to Roger Long that I’m not mad at you at all in the slightest. I don’t think that this is your fault at all. You have been nothing but super nice to me and my wife.
Steve, I do think that you probably would have won this tournament if these guys weren’t there. You are definitely one of the best 6’s in my eyes. That is the reason why I bid you so high in the Calcutta. Trust me bud, this guy was definitely hiding his ability.
I guess the person that isn’t getting much blame for this is Don Imus (I mean Harry Bliss). He looks just like Don. Here is a guy who plays pool in AZ and doesn’t win in any tournaments; gets pissed and tries to bring a ringer in to rob all his friends in AZ. This guy needs to get some of the blame. I don’t want to say too many bad things about Harry because he looks like the type of guy that would kill me for a cheeseburger.
Here is another picture of Mike so that you can see all the pudding. He’s one sexy son of a gun. I don’t think he has spent any time in a pool hall eating fried food. Do you guys?
I would like to say to Roger Long that I’m not mad at you at all in the slightest. I don’t think that this is your fault at all. You have been nothing but super nice to me and my wife.
Steve, I do think that you probably would have won this tournament if these guys weren’t there. You are definitely one of the best 6’s in my eyes. That is the reason why I bid you so high in the Calcutta. Trust me bud, this guy was definitely hiding his ability.
I guess the person that isn’t getting much blame for this is Don Imus (I mean Harry Bliss). He looks just like Don. Here is a guy who plays pool in AZ and doesn’t win in any tournaments; gets pissed and tries to bring a ringer in to rob all his friends in AZ. This guy needs to get some of the blame. I don’t want to say too many bad things about Harry because he looks like the type of guy that would kill me for a cheeseburger.
Here is another picture of Mike so that you can see all the pudding. He’s one sexy son of a gun. I don’t think he has spent any time in a pool hall eating fried food. Do you guys?
hey steve!!! the real thanks goes to mike ohara and jerry and brian for calling them out, banning their asses and putting up a pic of him so everyone knows what kind of person he is. we dont need this kind of shit in our rooms. it does nothing but put a sour taste in all of the people's mouths that deserve to be there. who knows who would have won. it should have been you vs veronica. you both were playing great until you ran into TSP (trash sack-o-puddin) and who knows how the outcome should have been. this wont stop us in what we are trying to do. all i know is this shit won't be tolerated at any of sweet tooths tourny or anywhere that i go. the hustler days are long gone and for those of you who still live by the old code of pool, your days are numbered. if you want to come in on the square you will get a chance to compete at the best tournaments we can provide. lots of money to be won and great competition. hope to see you around, and tell bad company next time you see him i said whats up!
ahahahaha good pic! roger in no way should be taking any heat on this. he has never been nothing but super nice to me and my lady and we even play league together.
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Hey Brian,
Sorry to hear about what happened.... but at least you are not lurking on AZ anymore.... you are actually posting! Nice!
A few things
Although I appreciate what every room owner, member of the ratings commitee and tournament director has done for the az pool scene,I have a problem with this .
Ok somebody got hustled in a calcutta. Thats the nature of the Biz. We are all in it for the money. It happens. Some guy plays under the radar and they get lucky and win. Oh well thats what he was rated.(dont get me started on the ratiings)The guy layed down, thats called hustling! I bet if it was Stevie Moore everybody would have been like WOW what a good move.
If you really think about it, if a tournament entry is all you really loss then you didnt lose much to learn a lesson.This game is for the money. Its just the way it is. The only reason I asked Jason for the picture is to make sure I dont get hustled!!!!
Jason rock on with tourneys.
Steve you make me proud..lol
Pudding in a bag .....Thats just too funny
Although I appreciate what every room owner, member of the ratings commitee and tournament director has done for the az pool scene,I have a problem with this .
Ok somebody got hustled in a calcutta. Thats the nature of the Biz. We are all in it for the money. It happens. Some guy plays under the radar and they get lucky and win. Oh well thats what he was rated.(dont get me started on the ratiings)The guy layed down, thats called hustling! I bet if it was Stevie Moore everybody would have been like WOW what a good move.
If you really think about it, if a tournament entry is all you really loss then you didnt lose much to learn a lesson.This game is for the money. Its just the way it is. The only reason I asked Jason for the picture is to make sure I dont get hustled!!!!
Jason rock on with tourneys.
Steve you make me proud..lol
Pudding in a bag .....Thats just too funny
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One more thing..
Dont judge Back2good based on his 70's looks He plays like a 80's hairband..thats all and good night
Dont judge Back2good based on his 70's looks He plays like a 80's hairband..thats all and good night
Touche on the word douchebaggery....I like it.