Rail shots question

[enzo]

i wouldn't worry about the type of spin being transferred to the ob on these shots myself, much more important is putting a good hit on the ob, but here are the important points....

with outside english, you need a slightly thicker hit, and contrary to popular belief, on this shot you do hit the object ball b4 you hit the rail. this is how i normally pocket the ball if it is a nine ball, and it is very accurate, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. people that think outside is the hardest are either thinking of thin cut rail shots with outside (these are in fact hard to impossible) OR they are aiming the shot with outside the same as they do with center or inside, so they miss it but it's because they need to aim ball first and they are aiming rail first. this is why there is a big myth that outside on this shot is so difficult, cus people don't aim it correctly.

with inside english and center ball, you will hit the rail slightly first at slower speeds. which brings me to the last point....

if you are hitting medium speed, inside english for example, you need to aim slightly rail first. if you hit that same shot hard, you need to hit further from the ball (ie hit even more rail first).

play with those three variations mentioned and you'll be hitting them like 50% better within an hour i bet.

 

[randyg]

Agreed PJ. I believed this before this weekend, however, after spending two days with Mark Wilson (whom I'm willing to bet plays better than anyone in this thread) where he used several examples to show me that the transference of spin although possible is so minute as to make it neglible. Ranks right up there with aiming systems, but thats another can of worms.:grin:

Pat. In school we like to use the word "infinitesimal", neglible works.
I agree, Mark may be one of the best players any where, let along this board.

 

[Shaft]

I am certainly no pro, but I aim for the rail first (about the thickness of a nickle) with just a little inside spin. This encourages a shallow rebound of the CB. (Harder hits require hitting the rail a little earlier.)

You do not want to hit the OB while the CB is still compressing the rubber. You want to hit the OB when the CB is in the rebound track.

This is an opinion not backed up by scientific experimentation - other than I feel I am pretty successful with these shots ever since using this method.

Play with different methods. Good luck.

 

[Jal]

Agreed PJ. I believed this before this weekend, however, after spending two days with Mark Wilson (whom I'm willing to bet plays better than anyone in this thread) where he used several examples to show me that the transference of spin although possible is so minute as to make it neglible. Ranks right up there with aiming systems, but thats another can of worms.:grin:

Can you tell us what situations he was referring to? I ask because, contrary to some beliefs, you can induce up to about 18% of maximum cueball english on the OB, and that can help a ball into a pocket in some situations (e.g., assisting one into a side pocket at a tough angle).

Jim

 

[randyg]

Can you tell us what situations he was referring to? I ask because, contrary to some beliefs, you can induce up to about 18% of maximum cueball english on the OB, and that can help a ball into a pocket in some situations (e.g., assisting one into a side pocket at a tough angle).

Jim

Jim. Does that happen on every shot?....SPF=randyg

 

[RiverCity]

You probably didn't mean it this way, but just to be clear:

Enough spin can be transferred to the OB to make a significant difference in how it rebounds from a rail. In fact, many banks that aren't "on" can be made this way (ask any banks or 1 pocket player).

But even maximum transferred spin isn't enough to determine whether or not an OB will go into a pocket off the pocket's facing. Put it another way: you can't transfer enough spin to cause an OB not to drop off a pocket facing.

pj
chgo

Your logic is flawed here Pat. The ob does not have to be spinning at the same rate as the cueball to rebound into the pocket off of a facing. You admit that sidespin can be imparted onto the ob. As long as the ob is turning the proper direction it will turn itself into the pocket should it strike the facing. If the ob has the opposite spin on it, it will fight against the facing and on tight pocketed tables adds to the possibility of rattling the ball in the pocket. No on ever said anything about the object ball needing to be spinning at the same rate as the object ball.
Chuck

 

[Jal]

Jim. Does that happen on every shot?....SPF=randyg

Not really. :wink: I mean I agree that, generally speaking, a player has other things to worry about besides helper english, which isn't going to assist much or any with most shots. But if you know how to induce near maximum throw, and thus near maximum OB spin, it does help, or is even essential, in some situations.

Jim

 

[Bob Jewett]

Jim. Does that happen on every shot?....SPF=randyg

Any time the object ball is thrown (does not go along the line of centers of the two balls at the instant of impact) the object ball gets side spin from the cue ball. The amount of side spin depends on conditions, but it is more or less directly proportional to the amount of throw.

(Of course there are some people who don't believe that throw exists. I hope we do not hear from such addled minds in this thread.)

And on an earlier point, whether you want to hit an object ball before the cushion with outside spin depends on how much outside spin you have for the cut angle. You have to have more than enough for smooth rolling across the face of the object ball. With thin cuts, that's hard to get.

Shooting the ball as if the rail is not there is also Mizerak's advice, for whatever that's worth. And Mosconi has frozen ball shots wrong in his book, FWTW.

 

[Scott Lee]

I might have said something like "There is no such thing as "go-in" english, or "helping" english. When you spin the CB (almost always to squirt the CB to hit rail first slightly (as Bob Jewett noted), it comes off the rail, at a 'wider' angle, and RUBS across the frozen OB, on the rail. This rubbing effect, is what causes the OB to run down the rail (appearing sometimes to "hug" the rail). It is the rubbing that causes the appearance of significant spin transfer. Of course we only talking about inside, or running english here. The shot can be also made with, or without rotational spin (inside or outside), with, or without directional spin (stun, follow, or draw). IMO, it is more difficult to execute these rail shots as accurately, using outside english, over inside english (which would likely be my first, logical choice, given a sliding CB didn't get me where I wanted to go. Patrick is quite correct, on this count. It is a very misunderstood, and widespread believed pool myth.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

"Get-in" or "helping" english is nonsense.

pj
chgo

 

[cleary]

People can argue all day about the physics of the game, but it really comes down to what works for you. You gotta hit the shots and find what works FOR YOU and practice what doesnt work for you. If you are better at hitting these shots with inside, then you will always have that in your pocket. Pull it out when your tired and you MUST make this ball. But if you dont work on pocketing the ball in every way, you are going to get stuck at one point or another.

For ME, a shot like this:

CueTable Help

is easier than a shot like this:

CueTable Help

But you have to learn to shoot them both. I just know which one I would rather have.

Because to ME, I tend to pocket more balls on the rail using inside english. You just dont always have that choice.

But if Im left with this shot to win:

CueTable Help

Me personally, Im using inside. Because I know the ball is going in.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you can induce up to about 18% of maximum cueball english on the OB, and that can help a ball into a pocket in some situations (e.g., assisting one into a side pocket at a tough angle).

Jim

Hey, I finally found something to disagree with Jim about. Cool!

I think you have to define "help" here. I think in order to be meaningful it has to mean "help a ball into the pocket that was unlikely to have gone in otherwise". I'll bet if you can demonstrate such a shot it will be one that I've never had to shoot.

pj
chgo

By the way, I don't disagree with your 18% of maximum CB sidespin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if Im left with this shot to win:

CueTable Help

Me personally, Im using inside. Because I know the ball is going in.

Me personally, I'm using centerball. Because I know the ball is going in at any distance or speed or butt elevation (no squirve).

pj
chgo

 

[accustatsfan]

I've found that treating a rail shot like a normal cut shot (ignore the rail) really works well.

I tried it from a Steve Mizerak article and it makes things so much easier.

Once they start dropping experimenting with rail first to change the cue ball path off the rail for position.

A technique I always heard was to aim at the ball and rail at the same time but I feel that's just a starting point for aiming.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
You probably didn't mean it this way, but just to be clear:

Enough spin can be transferred to the OB to make a significant difference in how it rebounds from a rail. In fact, many banks that aren't "on" can be made this way (ask any banks or 1 pocket player).

But even maximum transferred spin isn't enough to determine whether or not an OB will go into a pocket off the pocket's facing. Put it another way: you can't transfer enough spin to cause an OB not to drop off a pocket facing.

RiverCity:
Your logic is flawed here Pat. The ob does not have to be spinning at the same rate as the cueball to rebound into the pocket off of a facing.

That's not my logic. My logic is that the OB can be spinning at the same rate as a CB in the wrong direction and still rebound into the pocket off a facing.

You admit that sidespin can be imparted onto the ob. As long as the ob is turning the proper direction it will turn itself into the pocket should it strike the facing.

The facing will turn the OB into the pocket no matter what sidespin it has on it.

If the ob has the opposite spin on it, it will fight against the facing and on tight pocketed tables adds to the possibility of rattling the ball in the pocket.

If the OB has opposite spin on it, it will add infinitesimally (thanks, Randy) to the chance that the ball might rattle. That's far, far less likely than the likelihood that you'll miss the shot because of throw or squirve caused by the sidespin.

No on ever said anything about the object ball needing to be spinning at the same rate as the object ball.

That's right; nobody ever said that. I said even if you shoot a CB with maximum sidespin in the wrong direction it won't make you miss the shot.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
"Get-in" or "helping" english is nonsense.

Scott:
I might have said something like "There is no such thing as "go-in" english, or "helping" english.

LOL. That's why you get elected to things and I don't.

pj
chgo

 

[desert1pocket]

IMHO, the "incorrect" spin can sometimes cause the ball to hang up after hitting the pocket facing instead of going in. I've seen it happen enough that I think it's chances are better than "infintesimal", but I do believe it is a somewhat rare occurance, and in most cases the object ball spin will have no effect on whether it goes in or not. I also agree that the chance of the spin causing the ball to go in where it otherwise would not, is greatly overshadowed by the desired location of the cueball.

If I'm shooting a down the rail shot that I absolutely have to make, and don't really care about where the cueball ends up, Im not shooting it with any english at all. My thinking is that I don't want to worry about deflection, swerve, throw, squirt, and all the additional variables that get thrown in the mix when using english. The chances of these variables hurting me are way better than the "go in english" helping me.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I personally believe you should learn to consistantly pocket balls using ALL englishes and speeds.

If you can do that, then helping english is not neccessary.

 

[Jal]

Hey, I finally found something to disagree with Jim about. Cool!

You know and I know that you'd be in a sorry state if you agreed with everything I said!

I think you have to define "help" here. I think in order to be meaningful it has to mean "help a ball into the pocket that was unlikely to have gone in otherwise". I'll bet if you can demonstrate such a shot it will be one that I've never had to shoot.

I can't, but what I had in mind was the shallow side pocket approach, where with the wrong sidespin on the OB, it bobbles, but drops with the right spin. If you agree that happens (I'm not saying you do), and then if you're saying that simply having no induced sidespin on the OB would be sufficient (i.e., canceling CIT with outside), I couldn't prove otherwise. I'd have to go to a table and do some testing. If you allow some slack with the term "helping english", on such shots you can give yourself a bit more clearance with the looming near point of the pocket.

By the way, I don't disagree with your 18% of maximum CB sidespin.

You're generally not one to accept things on the basis of what anyone says, no matter who says it (<-- understatement of the month). If you worked that out yourself, I'd be interested to know how you did it, whether by PM or otherwise.

Jim

 

[RiverCity]

An object ball rotating with what is essentially running english off of the facing will turn into the pocket cleaner than one with reverse english.
It probably doesnt make as much of a difference on a loose table. But a loose table, you can hit the long rail a diamond away and still make the ball too. On tight pocketed tables with hard facings, it makes a big difference.
And the thing about it is, you dont need a physics degree to discern the difference in how the object ball reacts with different spins off of the facings. You need a table and a cue, and you can see it for yourself.
Chuck

 

[randyg]

Not really. :wink: I mean I agree that, generally speaking, a player has other things to worry about besides helper english, which isn't going to assist much or any with most shots. But if you know how to induce near maximum throw, and thus near maximum OB spin, it does help, or is even essential, in some situations.

Jim

Thanks Jim. I found that "near maximum throw", doesn't alway happen on every shot. Many object balls take very little usefull spin if any.......SPF=randyg