Your views on Ivory use in Pool Cues

Would you own a cue with ivory in it?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 111 72.1%
  • No.

    Votes: 20 13.0%
  • Mixed Feelings.

    Votes: 14 9.1%
  • Who gives a $*#@?!

    Votes: 9 5.8%

  • Total voters
    154

Fast Lenny

Faster Than You...
Silver Member
Would you own a cue with ivory or not? I personally have mixed feelings about it being an animal lover and I know that you can get pre-ban ivory but either way we know where it came from and you cannot be sure it is actually pre-ban. I like the cues in the gallery with all the ivory in them but just have mixed feelings. Make your choice in the poll.
 
i own a cue with an ivory joint but i have mixed feelings about it. i like elephants and don't like the idea of them being killed for their tusks. i don't think i'd buy another cue with ivory in it
 
Would you own a cue with ivory or not? I personally have mixed feelings about it being an animal lover and I know that you can get pre-ban ivory but either way we know where it came from and you cannot be sure it is actually pre-ban. I like the cues in the gallery with all the ivory in them but just have mixed feelings. Make your choice in the poll.

Sorry Lenny, you have been duped. You most certainly can be sure it is pre-ban Ivory, because the Ivory we use in cues must be seasoned. Green Ivory, freshly poached, is no good for inlays or any other part of the cue. So you can lose the guilt trip Ivory gives you, and enjoy the natural beauty of legal Ivory that has been incorporated in works of art you see in the gallery.
 
Sorry Lenny, you have been duped. You most certainly can be sure it is pre-ban Ivory, because the Ivory we use in cues must be seasoned. Green Ivory, freshly poached, is no good for inlays or any other part of the cue. So you can lose the guilt trip Ivory gives you, and enjoy the natural beauty of legal Ivory that has been incorporated in works of art you see in the gallery.

How long does it take for the ivory to be seasoned? I would think that the amount of pre-ban ivory is not inexhaustible and if people still want it then it will have to come from somewhere. I have never owned a cue with any ivory but have hit with cues that had an ivory joint and it played nice.
 
How long does it take for the ivory to be seasoned? I would think that the amount of pre-ban ivory is not inexhaustible and if people still want it then it will have to come from somewhere. I have never owned a cue with any ivory but have hit with cues that had an ivory joint and it played nice.

The import of Ivory was banned in 1989. Elephants were being hunted and Ivory being brought into the states for at least 100 years prior to the ban. So you have a century of aged Ivory to choose from since 1989. I believe the older the better when it comes to aged Ivory, but I am under the impression it takes at least 25 to 30 years for Ivory to reach the point where it can be use in cue making.
 
As a Republican with a fantastic memory; I love elephants. I also love ivory in cues. I think there is plenty of pre-ban Ivory, and it will ALWAYS be available, but at an increasing cost. I don't think Elephants should be hunted for their teeth, But I am sure that if elephants could hunt us for our teeth they would. Just a feeling I get when I look at them. Elephants are large spiteful creatures, and they probably have the right.:eek:
 
Lenny, I voted no. I feel like there are plenty of man made materials to take the place of ivory, at least for pool cues. I have read many stories about ivory cracking under different temperatures or elevations, not to mention it adds to the cost of a cue.
As far as the hit/feel goes, ivory in the butt cap or joint are not going to affect the hit very much. The hit/feel comes mostly from the shaft of a cue or the tip. So it seems, other than cosmetics, or for collectibility, ivory does not do much for a pool cue. This is just my opinion, no facts to back it up at all.
 
Anybody who wants to make an informed decision for themselves over how they feel about the use of pre-ban ivory in a cue should read this article.

http://www.cuemakers.org/aboutivory.htm

It is written by David Warther. He is one, and for many cuemakers the only one they use, of the sources of pre ban ivory available to cuesmiths. If a cuemaker buys from him you can be sure it is pre ban ivory.

The article briefly discusses the topic of how long the supply of pre ban ivory will hold up. It briefly discusses how prevalent illegal ivory trade is (or is not) in this country, and how Warther has cooperated with authorities on the subject. It discusses the import and export laws. It is all there to help someone make informed decisions.

Kelly
 
Sorry Lenny, you have been duped. You most certainly can be sure it is pre-ban Ivory, because the Ivory we use in cues must be seasoned. Green Ivory, freshly poached, is no good for inlays or any other part of the cue. So you can lose the guilt trip Ivory gives you, and enjoy the natural beauty of legal Ivory that has been incorporated in works of art you see in the gallery.



green ivory aint worth a quarter, it has to sit for 10 years minimum, 20 is best. I have 10 tusks from elephants i shot, none of it is suitable for yse yet.
 
Anybody who wants to make an informed decision for themselves over how they feel about the use of pre-ban ivory in a cue should read this article.

http://www.cuemakers.org/aboutivory.htm

Kelly has all of the good information this week. Haha.


I thought that was a great read. However, it's terribly long. I thought I might quote a couple of that parts I found interesting.

1) Aren't elephants on the endangered species list? What, are you going to inlay some bald eagle beaks next? Haha, no.

The Endangered Species Act ( ESA ) of the 1970's did little to affect African ivory because African elephants are still not on the endangered species list. The Asian elephant is on the list - always has been - and ivory from Asian elephants cannot enter Interstate commerce because of that.


2) How was the dealer's ivory imported legally?

Sport Hunted Trophy : If you shoot an elephant on legal safari in Africa you can bring any and all parts back to your country of residence with the UN permit. Sweden does not allow the importation of these trophy parts . To the best of my knowledge all other nations do. The UN does not care what happens to the ivory once it goes back to a hunters' country of residence SO LONG AS IT NEVER LEAVES THAT COUNTRY. The UN leaves all other intra-national laws to be at the discrepancy of the government of the nation . The US Gov't has stated that post-ban ( UN ban of 1990 and US ban of 1989 ) ivory cannot enter commerce unless certain specific conditions exist.
As others have said, it takes 2-3 decades to season the ivory properly. So, the ivory you see in cues is pre-ban.



3) Where are the ivory dealers getting their ivory?

So the bottom line is that the ivory I sell is pre-ban ivory. This is well aged African elephant ivory from private and museum collections found within the 50 States. When this material is gone - it is gone and I will then be out of business. I know this and the Government knows this. I am often asked how long the US supply will last and I have no way of knowing. Most of these tusks are from the 1950's through the 1980's with the vast majority being from the 1960's and early 70's when big game hunting was at its' peak. Most people who hunted elephants were wealthy people and many found it highly advantageous to donate their tusks to museums. The IRS , until 2007 , allowed for such donations to be valued at " replacement cost " . The end result was that a man or woman could hunt an elephant in 1960 for a total trip cost of under $ 1200 and donate the tusks 30 years later for a tax deductible amount of $ 60,000. Needless to say , a lot of ivory tusks were donated to non-profit museums across America and we work with these museums to purchase them. By law , a non-profit museum can sell items donated to it.


The article is long but a very good read. I feel a little less dirty using ivory afterward.


As far as cuemaking goes, nothing compares to ivory. It's very beautiful, strong, and machines wonderfully.
 
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No more ivory is cool by me...

I voted yes because my cue does contain Ivory.

The only reason it is in it has to do with the cue's value.

A pool cue with Ivory as a construction/inlay material (other than perhaps as a ferrule) really has no benefit other that cue price/value.

In my opinion, our industry, and the rest of the world, would be well served to cease our use of the material.

There are far more good playing materials (synthetics, woods) available today vs. pool's Ivory-centric history.
 
yes, absolutley. I dont think ivory inlays r the only reason for poaching in the world. We dont use enough ivory to make it neccasary. And Elephants do die naturally also. So between the preban stuff and the stuff acquired naturally theirs enough ivory to go around.
 
The IRS , until 2007 , allowed for such donations to be valued at " replacement cost " . The end result was that a man or woman could hunt an elephant in 1960 for a total trip cost of under $ 1200 and donate the tusks 30 years later for a tax deductible amount of $ 60,000.

Crazy!!! :yikes:
 
I remember seeing an old ad where Brunswick claimed they were one of the world's largest buyers of elephant ivory (remember that the old balls were made from ivory too).

My how times have changed!

Now I ask the question: WWJD?

That's right, What would Joe do? Here's your answer - and it's a pretty radical read too (you tree huggers:smile:).

http://www.cuecomponents.com/elivco.html


Chris
 
I use Ivory for ferrules only. I toyed with the idea of using it for the butt cap of my latest creation, but there were a couple problems.

1) the vintage style of the cue lends itself to Delrin (which I used)
2) Ivory is about 30% heavier than Delrin, so you pay a weight penalty.
3) There is no reason to use Ivory for a butt cap. If I used it, it would end up looking like some synthetic Ivory plastic stuff anyway. Pure bragging rights.

I see no value in having Ivory inlays. I personally think Mother of Pearl has more 'bling' to it anyway... Plus it is traditional and classy if done well. Synthetic Ivory inlays could be done and when buried under clear no one would ever know. It makes me wonder if some of those cues floating around might have 'synthetic' Ivory inlays in them (although a fluorescence test would prove it)

I see no value in Ivory joints either. I have hit balls with some respected ivory jointed and steel jointed cues (from the same maker) and did not attribute any differences in hit to the joint material. It does have a weight advantage over steel; however fiber reinforced phenolic is as light as ivory (if not lighter) and MUCH stronger. (I still prefer steel myself) I looked at Ceramic for joint material recently but did not pursue it...

Ivory Ferrules have some unique proprieties that I feel are significant enough to warrant their use.

1) it hits like Ivory because it is.
2) As mentioned, it machines (and polishes) beautifully
3) it is the 'traditional' material for ferrules
4) I have yet to find any synthetic material with ALL the features of Ivory:

You might get a nice hit, but then the ferrule stains easily.
It might look like ivory, but it cracks and doesn't take a polish or hit like Ivory etc.
The list goes on.
There are a ton of plastics out there to try and replace Ivory for the concerns of many pool player and cue makers. The problem is, it really is a wonderful material!

Personally, if Ivory use was reduced to functional/mechanical uses in cues (ferrules and joints) and not used so much to make the "most Ivory loaded cues in the world" with Ivory handles, butt caps, inlays and points, there would be more to 'go around' so to speak. But, to each their own.:wink:
 
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