terrible workmanship
- Thread starter tikkler
- Start date
I would say send it back for a refund.
I am assuming you ordered this stick after seeing his work in person and his workmanship did not live up to what you had seen him do before. Hopefully you are not comparing it to other cues you have.
Having built my first cue only months ago I can see were a new maker would be excited at making you a new cue that might strech his abilitys. I think it would be best to send it back with a honest evaluation. He may then chose to fix or build you a new cue. He may also decide to wait till his abilitys and tooling can meet your expectations, if ever.
I sold two cues to a guy who liked my work. He thought a friend of his would like one of them. He shipped one 400 miles to his friend and charged him what I charged for both sticks. His friend didn't like it and sent it back. I offered a refund. The original buyer decied he would keep it himself and see if he could sell it out of his store. I had just finished another stick that was better looking and would sell better off the rack. I took it and exchanged it for the plainer one. Not because I am a nice guy, I just wanted a chance to see what the other guy didn't like and learn from my mistakes. The guy who didn't like my stick is in the computer busness and I am sure a poster on AZB. He could have posted photos and blasted my work all over the internet. I am greatful he didn't. I am new. That is not a excuse it's just a fact.
Larry
I am assuming you ordered this stick after seeing his work in person and his workmanship did not live up to what you had seen him do before. Hopefully you are not comparing it to other cues you have.
Having built my first cue only months ago I can see were a new maker would be excited at making you a new cue that might strech his abilitys. I think it would be best to send it back with a honest evaluation. He may then chose to fix or build you a new cue. He may also decide to wait till his abilitys and tooling can meet your expectations, if ever.
I sold two cues to a guy who liked my work. He thought a friend of his would like one of them. He shipped one 400 miles to his friend and charged him what I charged for both sticks. His friend didn't like it and sent it back. I offered a refund. The original buyer decied he would keep it himself and see if he could sell it out of his store. I had just finished another stick that was better looking and would sell better off the rack. I took it and exchanged it for the plainer one. Not because I am a nice guy, I just wanted a chance to see what the other guy didn't like and learn from my mistakes. The guy who didn't like my stick is in the computer busness and I am sure a poster on AZB. He could have posted photos and blasted my work all over the internet. I am greatful he didn't. I am new. That is not a excuse it's just a fact.
Larry
Last edited:
I think you're missing the point. Have you seen the cue to know what's being referred to? I haven't and I don't want to because it's about expectations.
If you haven't seen the cue, aren't you jumping the gun a bit?
You're certainly entitled to your opinion but what's up with the 'no second chances'? That's pretty damning from someone who doesn't have a stake in the transaction.
Every cue I have sold to an AZ member was sent out with a simple request:
Please review your new cue publicly, your unbiased opinion is appreciated.
No,... I think you're missing the point. I believe that if Steve says it's a piece.... then it's a piece. This cuemaker knows who he was selling the cue to. Are you going to sell a cue to a serious collector ( or anyone else for that matter ) and let a piece of crap go out the door. C'mon, wake up now................ That's my damning opinion.
Steve,
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this but it sounds as if you KNOW this builder deliberately sent you a cue that he knew (without a doubt) that it had flaws. Just curious as to how you know what was in his head?
Could it be that his skill level just wasn't what you expected or what he is capable of?
You mentioned that this has happened on two other occasions and that in both instances, there was an amicable resolution. That is how it should be. How is that a mistake?
Why would you now want to change tactics and turn the builder into ground meat because his work isn't up to your impeccable tastes.
Certainly the only lesson you'll give him is that he shouldn't deal with you ever again. I'm not suggesting that you should accept shoddy work. That's not what you're paying for. But if you're going to go on a campaign to rid the world of every new CM that you buy a cue from and that cue doesn't meet your exceptionally high standards, then eventually you'll run out of CMs.
When a cue is finished and shipped the builder has accepted the quality of the work. If he didn't want people to see the cue it should of never left the shop. Post some pics and don't tell us who built it. After the issue is resolved let us know the builder and how it was handled.
Honesty is what makes this forum work. Good or bad the review is necessary and nobodies career will get destroyed over one cue.
In the end both parties can be happy,
Honesty is what makes this forum work. Good or bad the review is necessary and nobodies career will get destroyed over one cue.
In the end both parties can be happy,
Then I'd say that the difference of opinion is btwn. Steve & the builder.
Not you, not me or anyone else in the peanut gallery.
You haven't seen the cue or it's alleged flaws yet you're basing an opinion on hearsay only. That's the 'mob mentality' I was referring to.
I don't sell to collectors and have no desire to do so. I have no interest in that market whatsoever. My cues are built for players, not collectors.
However, nothing goes out my door unless in my mind that it's the best work I can offer for the price the client is willing to pay.
I'll be honest to say that I'm not capable of building $4,000/5,000 cues.
I currently build cues in the $1,000 and under price range and the 'players' who own them are quite pleased with their purchase.
I agree, the CM did know who he was selling to and I'll venture a guess that he put his heart & soul into the building of the cue. Unfortunately, his best efforts weren't enough to meet expectations. Can I go back to sleep now?
One of the points you're missing is that this is an open public forum that is just reaching out to me for my comments. The other is: No matter who you choose to sell to... or not sell to in your case, shoddy work should never leave the shop. I would hope that you would want your work to hold up under the highest of scrutiny no matter who the buyer.
I don't let anything out of the shop that I don't want to see on AZB in high resolution pictures.
It doesn't matter who it's sold to.
Once it leaves my shop it's out of my hands and if I was careless enough to send an obviously flawed, substandard piece to a customer then I deserve to be outed for it.
However if there is a flaw that might have gotten past me then I would hope that the customer and I have a good enough relationship that he or she would give me a chance to rectify it before going public.
If I were the customer in this situation and I received a cue that was full of glaring flaws then what I would do is to take high res photos of it. Then I would send them to the cuemaker and talk to him about it. I would either ask for a refund or a new cue. Once the situation was then resolved to my satisfaction and my money was either returned or a new cue made then I would consider whether I wanted to publicly admonish the cue maker or not.
I feel that it's a gross insult to send out product that is obviously flawed. Especially inlays in cues. The whole point of inlays is that they should be flush and tight with either no glue lines or just about perfect lines. Why bother with inlays if you can't do them? There are some techniques we don't do on leather because we aren't good enough yet.
As a maker I feel that your reputation is wrapped up in each item I make. I often tell me staff as I am being critical of some detail that it's not just for the customer that we pay attention to the details but for everyone who looks at the case.
I say that the customer may not notice a flaw here and there but they will certainly feel bad if they are showing off their new case and someone else points out a flaw. And I go on to say that even if the other person doesn't point it out then it certainly will stick in their mind kind of like how you can't stop staring at someone's scar.
So I ask my people to be as meticulous as they can. We still will make mistakes and no one will catch it. That's just life. But I will never send out a case with something obvious and hope that the customer or his friends don't see it. My philosophy is that my cases should be able to pass inspection by veteran leather workers and all of my customers have a friend who is one.
I think that Tommy's philosophy echoes mine in this regard. We both build as if we were the customer and that works because neither of us would accept substandard work.
As to what should be done.....that's a tough one. I think that if a maker is genuinely sorry and makes every attempt to rectify it then perhaps they should get the chance to do so.
Well, that's my opinion and here's hoping that I don't ever put anyone in this position.
John Barton
It doesn't matter who it's sold to.
Once it leaves my shop it's out of my hands and if I was careless enough to send an obviously flawed, substandard piece to a customer then I deserve to be outed for it.
However if there is a flaw that might have gotten past me then I would hope that the customer and I have a good enough relationship that he or she would give me a chance to rectify it before going public.
If I were the customer in this situation and I received a cue that was full of glaring flaws then what I would do is to take high res photos of it. Then I would send them to the cuemaker and talk to him about it. I would either ask for a refund or a new cue. Once the situation was then resolved to my satisfaction and my money was either returned or a new cue made then I would consider whether I wanted to publicly admonish the cue maker or not.
I feel that it's a gross insult to send out product that is obviously flawed. Especially inlays in cues. The whole point of inlays is that they should be flush and tight with either no glue lines or just about perfect lines. Why bother with inlays if you can't do them? There are some techniques we don't do on leather because we aren't good enough yet.
As a maker I feel that your reputation is wrapped up in each item I make. I often tell me staff as I am being critical of some detail that it's not just for the customer that we pay attention to the details but for everyone who looks at the case.
I say that the customer may not notice a flaw here and there but they will certainly feel bad if they are showing off their new case and someone else points out a flaw. And I go on to say that even if the other person doesn't point it out then it certainly will stick in their mind kind of like how you can't stop staring at someone's scar.
So I ask my people to be as meticulous as they can. We still will make mistakes and no one will catch it. That's just life. But I will never send out a case with something obvious and hope that the customer or his friends don't see it. My philosophy is that my cases should be able to pass inspection by veteran leather workers and all of my customers have a friend who is one.
I think that Tommy's philosophy echoes mine in this regard. We both build as if we were the customer and that works because neither of us would accept substandard work.
As to what should be done.....that's a tough one. I think that if a maker is genuinely sorry and makes every attempt to rectify it then perhaps they should get the chance to do so.
Well, that's my opinion and here's hoping that I don't ever put anyone in this position.
John Barton
It's tough action these days, I gotta tell you the second chance I want is to make another cue because the first one was perfect, not fix the first one.
Perhaps that is the problem? !!
This forum seems to run on ulterior motive, band wagon, 'That's the best cue I've ever ever ever seen!' , non truth, BS.
Not saying that this is Tikkler's case, knowing his collecting habits..LOL Perhaps Mr. Tikkler is speaking of a well known builder who is riding on their reputation and being lazy?
Perhaps he was expecting more from a "super hyped" AZ builder that, in reality, just can't cut it. JMHO
Cost a Factor?
I'd like to add/admit,
I never made a perfect Cue Cap..Never will..
Always something screwed up..No mater how much I try..
Too much things to control...
Dust, pits, white spots (Remember "Murphy's law"), equipment, flaws in materials....And, me!!:sorry:
Cue Caps is a loser business...But, they do give a nice touch to the cue..:wink:
So, if I'm destant to go out of business, that's O.K. No money in cue caps.
(I made more serving Coffee part time... Amazing, yea??)..
Cuemaker's make perfect Caps... But, might cost double to price.
Steve, this is in no disrespect to you or refering to you..
Just my life story. and a good post to tell everyone.
Alton
Yes, I know, It ain't a "Ask the Cue CapMaker" section..
Might as well show Myron's Plaque, since I'm here..
Replie to Jim Below:
Thanks Jim... Matching caps too, is hard.. Especially without the "cue-in-hand"
I'd like to add/admit,
I never made a perfect Cue Cap..Never will..
Always something screwed up..No mater how much I try..
Too much things to control...
Dust, pits, white spots (Remember "Murphy's law"), equipment, flaws in materials....And, me!!:sorry:
Cue Caps is a loser business...But, they do give a nice touch to the cue..:wink:
So, if I'm destant to go out of business, that's O.K. No money in cue caps.
(I made more serving Coffee part time... Amazing, yea??)..
Cuemaker's make perfect Caps... But, might cost double to price.
Steve, this is in no disrespect to you or refering to you..
Just my life story.
and a good post to tell everyone.Alton
Yes, I know, It ain't a "Ask the Cue CapMaker" section..
Might as well show Myron's Plaque, since I'm here..
Replie to Jim Below:
Thanks Jim... Matching caps too, is hard.. Especially without the "cue-in-hand"
Attachments
Last edited:
I actually had this happen. I called the cue maker and we had a nice conversation on the phone. I told him I was going to return the cue for a refund it was not up to the quality I was lead to believe. In the course of the conversation we talked about cues and he told me some of the problems he was having trying to learn the craft. This was before the internet and in the time of all cuemaking was a big secret. Long story short, he was very apologetic and said the last thing he wanted was a bad reputation before he even had a chance to get started. The punch line here, he is now a guy you will have to wait years to get a cue from and it will cost you an arm and a leg. Everybody has to start somewhere but hopefully the cue maker doesn't have such an ego they can't see their own short comings and learn from them.
I'd like to add/admit,
I never made a perfect Cue Cap..Never will..
Always something screwed up..No mater how much I try..
Too much things to control...
Dust, pits, white spots (Remember "Murphy's law"), equipment, flaws in materials....And, me!!:sorry:
Cue Caps is a loser business...But, they do give a nice touch to the cue..:wink:
So, if I'm destant to go out of business, that's O.K. No money in cue caps.
(I made more serving Coffee part time... Amazing, yea??)..
Cuemaker's make perfect Caps... But, might cost double to price.
Steve, this is in no disrespect to you or refering to you..
Just my life story.
Alton
Yes, I know, It ain't a "Ask the Cue CapMaker" section..
I have to agree with Alton. Alton makes the most Beautiful cue caps out there. I do my best also, to match stich rings , ring thickness, color of wood, size of joint, you name it and try to do all this from a picture , trying to get the correct information is like pulling teeth, but when shipped they better be right. I have always redone or refunded every set that was not right , unless the customer became a A--H--- about it. I sell lots of sets at a discount becouse a ring was not the same thickness , or the cocobolo was not dark enough , but this is not a big problem, very often. Just my 2 cents worth. Correct information is priceless. Jim
My personal solution
Selling a cue over the net has the inherent problem that the customer does not have a chance to hold the cue in his hands before purchasing. All the pictures in the world are no substitute for seeing the cue "in the flesh". In addition, looks are only one factor. To me, the "hit" is even more important than the looks. At least if it's to be a "player" rather than just a collectable.
For that reason, whenever I have sold a cue to a remote buyer, I always make them the following offer:
If you don't like the cue after you receive it. Return it in original condition and I'll refund your purchase price (minus shipping cost).
I'm proud to say that I've never had anyone take me up on the offer.
Selling a cue over the net has the inherent problem that the customer does not have a chance to hold the cue in his hands before purchasing. All the pictures in the world are no substitute for seeing the cue "in the flesh". In addition, looks are only one factor. To me, the "hit" is even more important than the looks. At least if it's to be a "player" rather than just a collectable.
For that reason, whenever I have sold a cue to a remote buyer, I always make them the following offer:
If you don't like the cue after you receive it. Return it in original condition and I'll refund your purchase price (minus shipping cost).
I'm proud to say that I've never had anyone take me up on the offer.
slight defect issue
here's another issue.
i just got a cue from well respected maker and one tip of 1 of 2 shafts was a dud, so i sent it back and he replaced it for free (i also sent 2 other shafts and another butt for refinishing - to help him out as well, which i paid for).
well, since he was refinishing my other cue, i asked for his logo to be put on the butt cap, which wasn't originally on the cue.
when i got the shafts back, they look great, but the logo on the butt cap looks pretty bad. the logo itself is prob fine, but whatever it's filled in with (white) smudged everywhere.
do i:
1. send it back again saying something wrong
2. fix it myself (i have access to a lathe), because it may be just a touch up thing and just suck it up
3. let they guy know.
i'm just kinda shocked that he would send me the cue w/ a smudged logo, to the point where you have to squint to figure out what it is.
i'd post a pic, but do'nt wanna out the maker.
thanks
here's another issue.
i just got a cue from well respected maker and one tip of 1 of 2 shafts was a dud, so i sent it back and he replaced it for free (i also sent 2 other shafts and another butt for refinishing - to help him out as well, which i paid for).
well, since he was refinishing my other cue, i asked for his logo to be put on the butt cap, which wasn't originally on the cue.
when i got the shafts back, they look great, but the logo on the butt cap looks pretty bad. the logo itself is prob fine, but whatever it's filled in with (white) smudged everywhere.
do i:
1. send it back again saying something wrong
2. fix it myself (i have access to a lathe), because it may be just a touch up thing and just suck it up
3. let they guy know.
i'm just kinda shocked that he would send me the cue w/ a smudged logo, to the point where you have to squint to figure out what it is.
i'd post a pic, but do'nt wanna out the maker.
thanks
After going back and rereading, one question comes to mind, as I'm not clear on this, Did you have problems twice with the same maker, or 2 seperate ones? If the same maker, then that changes how my opinion would be formed. If two seperate, then I still believe, give the guy a chance to rectify/refund, then post or roast accordingly.
Dave
dave sutton
Banned
Thats a good question. Was it the same guy?
I think if the cue is so out of wack and still got send out he deserves what he gets... He obv saw this. He stared at this cue for hours upon hours. Basically by sending out the cue he is saying screw you as a customer.
I can understand steves position. Do i out the guy so no one else gets hurt or just get it fixed. I think it depends on how the maker approaches the probelm.
However if he did it to you he'll do it again to someone else... So i say post away
I think if the cue is so out of wack and still got send out he deserves what he gets... He obv saw this. He stared at this cue for hours upon hours. Basically by sending out the cue he is saying screw you as a customer.
I can understand steves position. Do i out the guy so no one else gets hurt or just get it fixed. I think it depends on how the maker approaches the probelm.
However if he did it to you he'll do it again to someone else... So i say post away