Shaft Flexibility?

stljohnny

stljohnny

knowledge > execution. :(
Silver Member
I was just wondering what the pros/cons are for having a shaft that is very flexible versus a shaft that isn't?

I have a Lucasi E7, and it is a very flexible shaft. My initial thought was that it helped with minimizing deflection, which the stick, as best I can tell, doesn't deflect as much as my last stick (a fairly low-quality cue from Rage). But, I have no real information to back that up - it's just my guess based on the memories of missing shots. My old stick was in my truck which was stolen (about 6 months ago) so I bought this cue mostly on a whim after playing with it for about 20 minutes. I tried a few others, but liked the look and feel of this one. It's only been in the last 2 or 3 months that I've learned about deflection (among other pool intricacies) so it really wasn't a factor in the initial purchase decision.

My stroke isn't perfect, so I don't expect to be able to draw the ball 12 feet off a rail, but I do have to wonder if the shaft's bending and/or vibration is a factor to the action I get on the CB.

Does anyone have any info or thoughts?
 
stljohnny said:
I was just wondering what the pros/cons are for having a shaft that is very flexible versus a shaft that isn't?

I have a Lucasi E7, and it is a very flexible shaft. My initial thought was that it helped with minimizing deflection, which the stick, as best I can tell, doesn't deflect as much as my last stick (a fairly low-quality cue from Rage). But, I have no real information to back that up - it's just my guess based on the memories of missing shots. My old stick was in my truck which was stolen (about 6 months ago) so I bought this cue mostly on a whim after playing with it for about 20 minutes. I tried a few others, but liked the look and feel of this one. It's only been in the last 2 or 3 months that I've learned about deflection (among other pool intricacies) so it really wasn't a factor in the initial purchase decision.

My stroke isn't perfect, so I don't expect to be able to draw the ball 12 feet off a rail, but I do have to wonder if the shaft's bending and/or vibration is a factor to the action I get on the CB.

Does anyone have any info or thoughts?
Click to expand...


In my opinion, If you want to shoot straight, then get a stiffer shaft. You aim with the stick, so would you rather aim a noodle, or aim a rifle? Those whippy/flexible shafts keep you shooting sloppy, get your self a stiffer shaft...something like a 12.5mm modified conical taper, straight back 8 in or so and then coned out. It'll hit great and sends the balls in a striaght line. It will do everything you need it to, and will make you better your stroke, and knowledge of it.

Remember you aim with the cue stick, not with the cue ball...if you think about it ghost ball and all that is really not an aiming method...just a how to find the contact point to pocket the ball method. Your cue is your gun, you aim the gun not the bullet. So go get yourself a rifle my man.:cool:

Hope that helps you brother,
Grey Ghost.
 
very nice posting greyghost^^

a stiffer shaft is always good- no matter what anyone tells you- there s always a kind of deflection! u have to train with each shaft pretty hard. just dont make the mistake to change your shaft each month- then u ll have a problem :)

i think GreyGhost would say: you just have to KNOW how your gun works^^
 
Thats been my experience as well,start with astiff cue and reshape it down just a little at a time till its right. Grey ghoast is usually helpful on this kinda stuff

Dean
 
imo the more a shaft flexes the harder it is to play with. depending on how hard you hit certain shots the more or less the shaft flexes. which means you'll be compensating differently for each shot depending on how hard you hit it

with a stiff shaft it won't flex as much so there's less to compensate for
 
deanoc said:
Thats been my experience as well,start with astiff cue and reshape it down just a little at a time till its right. Grey ghoast is usually helpful on this kinda stuff

Dean
Click to expand...

Thanks brother, you guys are gonna blow up my head....wont be able to wear my hard hat at work lol. But very very much thanks guys, I'm no scott lee, or master instructor, but I do consider myself a student of the game and at one time had a steady eddy mean streak to my game., and its an honor that you guys have respected what I have to say, and some have even improved their games with my little tid bits i've picked up over the years. Keep shootin like ya mean it, we got the best game in the world and the best forum to go along with it. Now just trying to push forward...just like running you gotta power up the hills friends.



Another happy thought.
Joel just sent me the first cue we ever worked on together about 4/5 yrs ago. It was a masterstroke conversion, with old growth shaft...piloted ss joint. You know every cue has a little roll in it somewhere just a smidge....i rolled it on the rail, and DEAD NUTS FLAWLESS (great construction and that wonderful old growth wood), and stiff like i like with that modified conical taper. Been playin with my heublers since my old weinstocks were stolen, when I started shooting with the conversion I actually remembered what it was like to be able to just point the stick and put the ball in the hole. Not that the hueblers are bad, they got alot of dead bodies under them. Just those softer shafts drag in the mud and actually hold my true game back....I like knowing my "GUN" is sighted in perfectly, perfectly to my temperment and unique style. It like that point click bang kinda cue/shaft.:cool: I feel complete again, it was like not having the right driver or something.

My gun is my weapon, and I shoot her from the hip...Bang your dead:eek:

Kindest Regards,
Grey Ghost
 
poolplayer2093 said:
imo the more a shaft flexes the harder it is to play with. depending on how hard you hit certain shots the more or less the shaft flexes. which means you'll be compensating differently for each shot depending on how hard you hit it

with a stiff shaft it won't flex as much so there's less to compensate for
Click to expand...

That's the opposite actually.
The more the first 6 inches of the shaft deflects OFF the cueball, the less the cueball deflects off the tip.
 
JoeyInCali said:
That's the opposite actually.
The more the first 6 inches of the shaft deflects OFF the cueball, the less the cueball deflects off the tip.
Click to expand...

The stick deflects, and causes the cue ball to throw the obj ball. What your saying is the more deflection the stick gets the LESS throw the cue ball has on obj ball(the bending of the shaft inflects english i.e. throw), joey i know you know thats not right. Its the exact opposite with the LD shafts or a stiff taper like a modified conical, less deflection less throw...more natural line, and you don't have to steer the ball.

Think about it which shoots straighter a whippy shaft meucci, or a conical tapered snooker cue? The snooker cue by far.


G.G.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
That's the opposite actually.
The more the first 6 inches of the shaft deflects OFF the cueball, the less the cueball deflects off the tip.
Click to expand...

but if it's stiff it'll always be the same. so there's always the same amount (or close to it) of compensation no matter how hard you hit the ball.
 
stljohnny

Let me try to clarify a few things.

First, the flexibility of the cue shaft has very little, if any, impact on "Cue Call Deflection". Most people say "Deflection" when they are talking about cue ball deflection or squirt. Cue ball deflection, or squirt, is the angle, different than the line of aim, that the cue ball travels down when it is struck off center. Squirt is caused by the difference in mass between the tip end of the cue shaft, and the mass of the cue ball. Do some searches as there are numerous videos on this by Dr Dave and many others. The stiffness of the cue shaft really has very little impact on the "effective" tip end mass. You really can't say that it has no impact, but its not enough to really even be able to measure, so it is pretty much dismissed.

We have low deflection (really low squirt) cue shafts that are a little more flexible than some and many people like them very much. We also have low deflection cue shafts that are very stiff and many people like them too. What it boils down to is what you prefer. It is true, that if you have a less than consistent stroke, a stiffer shaft will give you more consistent results. Remember one thing though, even a flexible shaft will hit very stiff and strong when you hit straight through the center of the cue ball. That is if your stroke is straight.

Ghost,

I too like your thoughts and comments about this great game. One point though. All current and past instruction that I am aware of teach that english and throw are 2 different things. I understand how you see it, and you are not alone. However, if someone who was taught the other way reads your comments, they won't understand what you are trying to say. In formal instruction, throw is what happens to the object ball when the cue ball has side spin at the moment of contact. I am not criticizing, just informing you that many would not understand your comments and gain from your experience.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
@RBC - Yes, I was talking about squirt off the tip - the variance of line of aim compared to the line of travel. I've seen the videos and done the drills to determine how much my stick squirts the CB.

@everyone else.
I'm really just curious as to why, if as it has been previously stated a stiffer shaft is preferred, do cue makers offer such soft shafts? Are there any benefits at all?
 
RBC said:
stljohnny

Let me try to clarify a few things.

First, the flexibility of the cue shaft has very little, if any, impact on "Cue Call Deflection". Most people say "Deflection" when they are talking about cue ball deflection or squirt. Cue ball deflection, or squirt, is the angle, different than the line of aim, that the cue ball travels down when it is struck off center. Squirt is caused by the difference in mass between the tip end of the cue shaft, and the mass of the cue ball. Do some searches as there are numerous videos on this by Dr Dave and many others. The stiffness of the cue shaft really has very little impact on the "effective" tip end mass. You really can't say that it has no impact, but its not enough to really even be able to measure, so it is pretty much dismissed.

We have low deflection (really low squirt) cue shafts that are a little more flexible than some and many people like them very much. We also have low deflection cue shafts that are very stiff and many people like them too. What it boils down to is what you prefer. It is true, that if you have a less than consistent stroke, a stiffer shaft will give you more consistent results. Remember one thing though, even a flexible shaft will hit very stiff and strong when you hit straight through the center of the cue ball. That is if your stroke is straight.

Ghost,

I too like your thoughts and comments about this great game. One point though. All current and past instruction that I am aware of teach that english and throw are 2 different things. I understand how you see it, and you are not alone. However, if someone who was taught the other way reads your comments, they won't understand what you are trying to say. In formal instruction, throw is what happens to the object ball when the cue ball has side spin at the moment of contact. I am not criticizing, just informing you that many would not understand your comments and gain from your experience.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Click to expand...


oh no offense taken always looking to better explain myself, my girl says I speak in triangles(my brain seems to be a rube goldberg machine at times), i see how you mean in explanation. i was trying to explain in my complicated head, that if a cue deflects it bends more, since the shaft bends more the degree of english is increased by the natural fibers in the wood to want to spring back to original shape/form. So hypothetically there will be more deflection on the cue ball. Is this correct Royce?

If its stiffer plus correct taper it can fade the vibration and run truer through the shot, I was basing this off my own experiences as you said, and from reading Kersenbroks book. Tho you can change a cue's hit with a differient style shaft, it can affect the way the cue was built to optimally preform as differing tapers to the compound tapers on the butt and shaft could clash, increase, or dampen the reaction of the hit/action on balls and the feel in your hand.

what are your thoughts?
Keeb-
 
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greyghost said:
The stick deflects, cue ball throws. What your saying is the more deflection the stick gets the LESS throw the cue ball has (the bending of the shaft inflects english i.e. throw), joey i know you know thats not right. Its the exact opposite with the LD shafts or a stiff taper like a modified conical, less deflection less throw...more natural line, and you don't have to steer the ball.

Think about it which shoots straighter a whippy shaft meucci, or a conical tapered snooker cue? The snooker cue by far.


G.G.
Click to expand...
GG, cueball does not "throw". The object ball does. Right english on the cubeall, throws the object ball to the the left ( assuming it's a super hard shot ).
If stiffer shoots straighter, then DPK or SW shafts shoot straighter than OB1 shaft.
I guarantee you they don't.
It's natural physics. It's either the tip deflects off the cueball or the cueball deflects off the tip.
If Predator shats had titanium insert the first 5 inches instead of havin AIR ( hollow ), it will cause more cueball squirt.
Using a conical taper, let's say 1MM taper in 12 inches.
A 13MM tip tapering up to 14MM will have MORE cueball squirt than a 12MM tip tapering up to 13MM in 12 inches.
 
sorry yea i meant deflection on cue ball, i mix it up in my head sometimes just like offshore, we have caps and plugs but a cap looks like a plug and the plug is a cap? Go figure....thanks for making me realize my incorrect jargon edited my posts accordingly

thanks,
G.G.
 
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stljohnny said:
@RBC - Yes, I was talking about squirt off the tip - the variance of line of aim compared to the line of travel. I've seen the videos and done the drills to determine how much my stick squirts the CB.

@everyone else.
I'm really just curious as to why, if as it has been previously stated a stiffer shaft is preferred, do cue makers offer such soft shafts? Are there any benefits at all?
Click to expand...

In pockect billiard like 9 ball (not carom) soft shaft allow you to juice out more english or even maintain greater side spin at lower cb velocity(meaning to drag a cb but applying sidespin). It is of more application for pocket billiard e.g. To position a cueball. But too soft a cue (overall cue) may not be desired by some pb player. Tapering in butt or splicing in butt may help dampened vibration after joint area.

Another thing to consider is, too steep a taper or too straight(non taper) a shaft may not help you hit where you want. Shaft tend to raised or drop when hitting the cb.

@ to Joey, is your jig done? :mad: :grin-square:
 
I think it come down to matching taper tip ferrule etc. to the players stroke and ability at the time of their purchase the same way you local golf club pro can save a few strokes by matching grip shaft and club head to their swing so can your local cue maker/repairman USE THEM !!!!
 
great read!

if i may add my little knowledge or observation.

Whippiness usually caused by the taper of the shaft/s.

I think whippy shaft really add more deflection specially when the shot/s requires side spin. Though, if whippy shafts impart deflection/squirt while LD/Stiffer shafts grabs and gave more spin to the CB which results to throw then which one is better?

well for me it really boils down to the shooters preference.
 
vickoy said:
great read!

if i may add my little knowledge or observation.

Whippiness usually caused by the taper of the shaft/s.

I think whippy shaft really add more deflection specially when the shot/s requires side spin. Though, if whippy shafts impart deflection/squirt while LD/Stiffer shafts grabs and gave more spin to the CB which results to throw then which one is better?

well for me it really boils down to the shooters preference.
Click to expand...
Low deflection shafts are not stiffer.
Predator has 17-inch pro taper.
OB1 shafts' taper is also long " pro taper ".
 
not scientific, but

having played for about 60 years i still do not understand all the e = mc2 involved in this game of pool. squirt - deflection etc etc
i can always get more zoom on snow with a skinny shaft, but pocket balls much better using a stiffer shaft.
i played with a 1978-9 joss west for 20 years, and i love the hit.
one of the shafts has had very little play and it measures from the tip one inch at a time 13.00 - 13.02 - 13.55 - 13.17 - 13.22 - 13.30 - 13.52 - 13.64 - 13.76 -14.00.
so the shaft gets 1 mm larger in the first 10 inches. if that style of taper is good enough for mr stroud [ one of the greatest builders imo [ its damn sure good enough for me.
chuck
 
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