Alleged padding of B&R's in the UPL tourney?? WTF?
- Thread starter KoolKat9Lives
- Start date
Padding score sheets
Unfortunately, round robin style events allow this type of manipulating. That does not make it excusable.
Team CSI put 4 players in this event. One of our guys (Charlie Bryant) was positioned #21. So this cheating might have made a difference in his future. As it turns out, the top 20 were guaranteed $1,000 each.
IF these guys cheated (and I think the facts pretty much show they did) then they stole money from every other pool player in the event. They stole money from their friends and peers. (Others may argue that this 'did not really make a difference' - but it might have and the intent was to falsify the records to help guarantee their position).
That is big time BS.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. If this was my event - and I caught someone 'cheating' like this - they would be asked to leave, forfeit all monies due and not invited for a predetermined period of time.
I think these players (And we know who they are) owe the billiard community and Corey Deuel in particular, a big apology.
Do I expect that to happen? Not hardly - so other actions will have to be taken. I know that if I was caught doing something as unethical as this, my detractors would make sure the world knew about it.
Mark Griffin
CSI
Unfortunately, round robin style events allow this type of manipulating. That does not make it excusable.
Team CSI put 4 players in this event. One of our guys (Charlie Bryant) was positioned #21. So this cheating might have made a difference in his future. As it turns out, the top 20 were guaranteed $1,000 each.
IF these guys cheated (and I think the facts pretty much show they did) then they stole money from every other pool player in the event. They stole money from their friends and peers. (Others may argue that this 'did not really make a difference' - but it might have and the intent was to falsify the records to help guarantee their position).
That is big time BS.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. If this was my event - and I caught someone 'cheating' like this - they would be asked to leave, forfeit all monies due and not invited for a predetermined period of time.
I think these players (And we know who they are) owe the billiard community and Corey Deuel in particular, a big apology.
Do I expect that to happen? Not hardly - so other actions will have to be taken. I know that if I was caught doing something as unethical as this, my detractors would make sure the world knew about it.
Mark Griffin
CSI
I was there through most of the discussions regarding this. Bottom line is this: There was no solid proof that anyone did anything wrong. Innuendo and suspicion does not mean a damn thing without solid proof. There was none.
My words to Corey on this subject were "If you make this accusation you can't take it back so you better be damn sure you're right before you do it because some day it could be you in that spot."
If someone is caught with solid proof of cheating then they should face all public ridicule possible and any sanctions available. That was not the case here.
By the way the numbers being thrown around in this thread for B&R's are wrong. I saw the scoresheet. Which proves my point that without all of the relevant info and solid proof the mob mentality can quickly take root and someone can have their life seriously impacted by unproven allegations.
If I could prove someone there was cheating I would have put it out for everyone to see. No one could do that so I chose not to perpetuate the situation by repeating opinion and innuendo. I think some of the people theorizing here should take the same course of action.
I saw all of the "evidence" put forth and without trying very hard at it all could dismiss each piece quickly with a more rational explanation than conspiracy. I could also leave out certain bits of information and make a damning argument for a conspiracy. But that does not constitute PROOF. And absolute proof is what you need to publicly put that label on someone and effect their ability to make a living.
My words to Corey on this subject were "If you make this accusation you can't take it back so you better be damn sure you're right before you do it because some day it could be you in that spot."
If someone is caught with solid proof of cheating then they should face all public ridicule possible and any sanctions available. That was not the case here.
By the way the numbers being thrown around in this thread for B&R's are wrong. I saw the scoresheet. Which proves my point that without all of the relevant info and solid proof the mob mentality can quickly take root and someone can have their life seriously impacted by unproven allegations.
If I could prove someone there was cheating I would have put it out for everyone to see. No one could do that so I chose not to perpetuate the situation by repeating opinion and innuendo. I think some of the people theorizing here should take the same course of action.
I saw all of the "evidence" put forth and without trying very hard at it all could dismiss each piece quickly with a more rational explanation than conspiracy. I could also leave out certain bits of information and make a damning argument for a conspiracy. But that does not constitute PROOF. And absolute proof is what you need to publicly put that label on someone and effect their ability to make a living.
If you saw the scoresheets and the numbers being "thrown around" are incorrect how about clearing up the matter and posting the correct numbers. You seem to be the only one with the eyes on view.
Please give us the rational explanations that dismiss the "evidence" being put forth.
No insult to you JCIN I really don't know you and you seem like a upfront guy but you claim everything isn't the way it seems but give no other option. As an outsider hearing and seeing what I see here tends to make me fall into the something is not quite "right" category of believers....
R
I'm sure it happened, and glad it did.. I'm sure there were other accounts as well, because the format was a great idea, but unfortunately, was too easily manipulated because of the extra option of break & runs. The only problem is that even though the top pro's are battling it out, most of them have each other on speed dial, and won't stand up against each other, or are working together. Maybe this will show who's who in pool. Meanwhile, I can think of many other honest people who were affected by only a few.
Well then there is only one thing to do.
Set up a sting operation. And let them read this thread so they know it's coming.
Get a group of people to be score keepers, just like you get all those shot clock volunteers in WPBA events.
Get people in the stands who are keeping score on their own sheet, and when the match is over, they are the ones who's sheet are compared against the players sheets.
If they don't match, then voila.
It's not that hard.
Keep 3 columns for each player.
One for breaks, one for runs outs, and one for games won.
Anyone caught cheating gets their face plastered all over every magazine.
Only problem with this is if you have volunteers gunning to screw over certain people, which is ALWAYS gonna happen in pool, so you need to find honest volunteers a well.
Shame that pool players need to be babysitted, but in the past few years, it seems that certain people are always looking to rip off the system, so IMO, it is well warranted.
Set up a sting operation. And let them read this thread so they know it's coming.
Get a group of people to be score keepers, just like you get all those shot clock volunteers in WPBA events.
Get people in the stands who are keeping score on their own sheet, and when the match is over, they are the ones who's sheet are compared against the players sheets.
If they don't match, then voila.
It's not that hard.
Keep 3 columns for each player.
One for breaks, one for runs outs, and one for games won.
Anyone caught cheating gets their face plastered all over every magazine.
Only problem with this is if you have volunteers gunning to screw over certain people, which is ALWAYS gonna happen in pool, so you need to find honest volunteers a well.
Shame that pool players need to be babysitted, but in the past few years, it seems that certain people are always looking to rip off the system, so IMO, it is well warranted.
Wouldn't one or two cameras recording the entire room be all that was required? We're not talking about needing up close, Hi-Def, slo-mo replays in order to confirm fouls. We're just talking about confirming whether a player broke and ran out a game.
I'm conflicted and I'm disgusted.
I don't know what's worse in pool - All the dumping, chopping, colluding, cheating, manipulating, deceiving, set-ups... Or the belief by many that have been in pool for so long that much of this is sometimes acceptable/justifiable or is to be expected and sluffed off. Maybe in a few more years I'll be as polluted. And then I can take those glorious qualities and apply them to my workplace and family life. Bravo.
I mean, seriously, who's getting screwed here?
Sorry, I'm just more than a bit disenfranchised at the moment. :frown:
I don't know what's worse in pool - All the dumping, chopping, colluding, cheating, manipulating, deceiving, set-ups... Or the belief by many that have been in pool for so long that much of this is sometimes acceptable/justifiable or is to be expected and sluffed off. Maybe in a few more years I'll be as polluted. And then I can take those glorious qualities and apply them to my workplace and family life. Bravo.
I mean, seriously, who's getting screwed here?
Sorry, I'm just more than a bit disenfranchised at the moment. :frown:
Wow such ignorance
Whos Stimulus? Who got us into this mess? Who left the country in shambles before he left? Bush. Cool to tie Obama to a neo nazi name even though he is black. Isnt that a tad racist, shameless for sure. Maybe you should look at how your choices in leadership have set us back, and now you criticize Obama for things that BUSH did. Bush did the stimulus package, BUSH set the arena for everything that happened. Blame who deserves blame, and thats the last administration. We dont need this filth in here.
JM
Whos Stimulus? Who got us into this mess? Who left the country in shambles before he left? Bush. Cool to tie Obama to a neo nazi name even though he is black. Isnt that a tad racist, shameless for sure. Maybe you should look at how your choices in leadership have set us back, and now you criticize Obama for things that BUSH did. Bush did the stimulus package, BUSH set the arena for everything that happened. Blame who deserves blame, and thats the last administration. We dont need this filth in here.
JM
Had you simply said this in regards to the topic, that would've been great. The rest of your drivel needs to be kept in the NPR section.
well thats a good note, i didn't watch the stream or hear anything except what i read on here....which is why i said I didn't want to cast any blames for sure, but just the idea of this happening makes my stomach ache.
good post, i agree if you can resolve this somewhat or deliver accurate info it would be much appreciated by all of us.
This is what Dan does for the big ring games, they have an official scorer and a witness to track and verify the chip counts. Once Corey does that the format should be fine.
-don
The reason I do not get into specifics is quite frankly because it is no one elses business but the TD and promoter. They did as good a job possible IMO of investigating a claim of misconduct and made a decision based on the information they assembled. It is not my place to come here in public and repeat things I heard in private conversations. If they want to address specifics they can. To have a long drawn out debate in a public forum with people throwing names around because they saw them or heard them somewhere does no good.
The format itself very weak and should be binned IMO. If everything were completely on the square in a round robin event no matter what someone is going to claim something was fixed. It is no good and should not be used.
One other thing. I feel no need to refute others claims who were not present on a point by point basis just because they posted something. This thread will go how all of the others similar do. Everyone will say how pool is doomed and pool players all suck and it's a shame there is no honor at all in the game. Then either another flame war will break out or some girl will insult another girl somewhere and this will be completely forgotten about.
Sorry all, didnt see the whole thred before posting, and can see why people would be pissed. I just thought that I was calling out what was being posted. Thanks to all that left me all the red, when nothing I said was not absolutely true.
Back to what you were discussing, and sorry for bringing the drama back to this post.
Back to what you were discussing, and sorry for bringing the drama back to this post.
Comments
I think that Mark Griffin 'hit the nail on the head' with his post, and he, certainly, has had the experience dealing with such matters.
JCIN - When Professional players break the rules, regulations, or ethics that govern Professional sports, it, most certainly, is the public business. You see it everyday in other sports, i.e., taking steroids, gambling on your team, etc.. First off, another Professional player would never accuse another of cheating without being 95% sure it occurred because they are aware of how much it could impact the player's life. Professional players have standards they have to ascribe to, or they, simply, are not professional.
Pool tournaments are nortorius for not having defined procedures, and/or sanctions, in place for someone that breaks the rules.
If someone 'cheats' me in a money match session, I finish the set, and never play that person again. Liers and cheats always get exposed in the end.
This is a classic example of why 'savers' are cheating. They are unethical, and quite simply, it is cheating for other players in the tournament, and cheating the public.
I think that Mark Griffin 'hit the nail on the head' with his post, and he, certainly, has had the experience dealing with such matters.
JCIN - When Professional players break the rules, regulations, or ethics that govern Professional sports, it, most certainly, is the public business. You see it everyday in other sports, i.e., taking steroids, gambling on your team, etc.. First off, another Professional player would never accuse another of cheating without being 95% sure it occurred because they are aware of how much it could impact the player's life. Professional players have standards they have to ascribe to, or they, simply, are not professional.
Pool tournaments are nortorius for not having defined procedures, and/or sanctions, in place for someone that breaks the rules.
If someone 'cheats' me in a money match session, I finish the set, and never play that person again. Liers and cheats always get exposed in the end.
This is a classic example of why 'savers' are cheating. They are unethical, and quite simply, it is cheating for other players in the tournament, and cheating the public.
I have to disagree about who's business it is.
TD and promoter is one thing.
How about every pool player that didn't make the cut because they were honest? Hhmmmmm?
What about the players who if the cheating didn't happen, would have made the cash?
It's not their business?
Let me tell you something, if i were in a pool tournament, and i got robbed by someone who was padding the score, i would be livid.
They would have to shoot me dead to shut me up.
If i actually CAUGHT the people doing it, i would most certainly risk my future career by outing them.
BUT, that in itself is a problem.
What do you do when one of the people accused of cheating, just happens to be pulling strings behind the scenes when he is acting as promoter in other events?
What happens if that guy puts on an invitational event, and because you outed him as a cheater, you don't get an invite?
That's why pool sucks. No one has the spine to stand up for themselves to better the future of the game, and will in turn, sell out for the almighty dollar.
Forget that garbage.
By not outing anyone, you protect the cheaters and reinforce that behavior.
Seriously, set up a sting operation.
Catch the people, and turn them into pool Pariahs.
Believe me, the ones who cheated, are laughing very hard at everyone else in pool who let them get away with it, and are loving every minute of it.
TD and promoter is one thing.
How about every pool player that didn't make the cut because they were honest? Hhmmmmm?
What about the players who if the cheating didn't happen, would have made the cash?
It's not their business?
Let me tell you something, if i were in a pool tournament, and i got robbed by someone who was padding the score, i would be livid.
They would have to shoot me dead to shut me up.
If i actually CAUGHT the people doing it, i would most certainly risk my future career by outing them.
BUT, that in itself is a problem.
What do you do when one of the people accused of cheating, just happens to be pulling strings behind the scenes when he is acting as promoter in other events?
What happens if that guy puts on an invitational event, and because you outed him as a cheater, you don't get an invite?
That's why pool sucks. No one has the spine to stand up for themselves to better the future of the game, and will in turn, sell out for the almighty dollar.
Forget that garbage.
By not outing anyone, you protect the cheaters and reinforce that behavior.
Seriously, set up a sting operation.
Catch the people, and turn them into pool Pariahs.
Believe me, the ones who cheated, are laughing very hard at everyone else in pool who let them get away with it, and are loving every minute of it.
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I can understand how you have formed your opinion about a lot of what you have written.
However, I disagree about "savers" as cheating. I have seen many players save with each other during a tournament, but both of them are still trying to beat each other. It's not cheating.
If I were to name which well-respected Hall of Famers save in tournaments, would you call them cheaters? They're still playing their heart out to win. They save with their opponent for one reason and one reason only. It helps with their tournament expenses if they get knocked out, allowing them to maybe break even in some cases.
If there was money in pool, there would be no need for savers. As an aside, I didn't see any players doing savers on the IPT tour.