Ralf 66
Mika 23
Mika 23
*Player of the decade*
- Thread starter eezbank
- Start date
If anything that adds weight to that event. The field was unreal for that tournament AND everyone was practiced up and shooting better then they have EVER shot before or since because of the money and the chance of the IPT being the first real pool tour with real money ever. Efren also won the IPT King of the Hill, and he placed high in the other IPT event I believe.
Seriously the only thing that irks me about Efren's money earnings were that "some" of that money was earned on the San Miguel and Guiness Tours, which were hard tours but they were also restricted to Asian players only and thus it was an unavailable cash stream. This especially hurts the American contingent who basically allow any player from anywhere in the world to pretty much any American event, but the Euro Tour and Asian tours then restrict America, which is the one place without a true tour at all and just a bunch of open events.
Yes Koop, this is very valid point when choosing the favourite player. But like Stricklands and Sigels were inducted into the H.O.F. simply because of their accomplishments, and ignoring their antics, I would say that the POTD should also be done concidering the accomplishments.
And to give you more perspective, I have been asked many time "who's your favourite player", and every time I've mentioned Efren, few times Souquet. Never Mika.
So, this is not a fan talk.
Gotta add though, that when I saw Mika winning the 2001 World 9-Ball Championships, I realized that only Efren and Strickland of the modern players (then still modern or prime) can outclass Mika's A-Game, and only Yang can par with him. Souquet, Archer, Bustamante or the other consistent players, cannot match with Mika's A-Game.
Now, eventhough Mika is probably not as artistic with his game, he's then again bringing more force to the table. Efren is too old, Earl too crazy, Yang has diminished, Ralf is still good, but Mika is the Best.
And like someone else also said, if Ralf is getting the gentleman points, then Efren and Mika should also get points out of the entertainment part.
They are both much much more entertaining to watch than Ralf. Efren is by far more creative and knowledgeable, Mika also a bit, but he has also so much more style and natural talent, in his technique, as his way of playing the game.
Both of them move the cueball in different level of Ralf's.
I fully agree.
When eezbank first said he'd vote for Efren, I just laughed. It seemed absurd. However people have made some great arguments in this thread. I still don't think Efren has a legit shot at winning, but now that I've heard all sides of the story, it makes sense. Regardless of who wins now, I won't be raising a questioning eyebrow at the results.
Excellent arguments all around.
What are you counting? The exiting thoughts coming into your mind when thinking of Pool?
Count 40K or +40K wins.
the votes in the poll.
RD3P
Banned
You guys arent thinking.....
Im gonna blindside everybody...
because the answer to this is very simple....
the correct answer to the question "player of the Decade"
Is
Allison Fisher
period.
She dominated the womans tour for the decade
Best womans player Hands Down EVER.
Shes the Tiger woods of Womans Pool
its not even disputable.
none of the mens players on that list have dominated in mens pool
the way Fisher dominated womans pool
Im gonna blindside everybody...
because the answer to this is very simple....
the correct answer to the question "player of the Decade"
Is
Allison Fisher
period.
She dominated the womans tour for the decade
Best womans player Hands Down EVER.
Shes the Tiger woods of Womans Pool
its not even disputable.
none of the mens players on that list have dominated in mens pool
the way Fisher dominated womans pool
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Civil colloquy
Nathan:
And cheers to you for your well-written rebuttal as well! Good civil debate is great, because it gets the mental gears moving. I like that.
To be fair, I think you cherry-picked only certain very-focused points in my post to rebut. That was a HUGE snip -- there were many other points in my post that I noticed were left out.
To reply to the points you make above:
* I don't know why AZBilliards doesn't monitor it, but IMHO the Euro Tour and various tours in Asia-PAC should count towards the player's resume. To overlook these are a SEVERE oversight. If the player was playing in them, and the event pays out, it should be monitored and recorded. If these unmonitored events were counted, I assure you things would be very different on that Top 30 list.
* As for your earnings argument (e.g. Mika out-earning Ralf 8 times, et al.), you then re-open the door for considering Efren -- Efren out-earned everyone. IMHO, "earnings," while important, should not be the be-all-end-all for consideration for POTD. There are other considerations to make a more well-rounded decision than earnings.
* I do stick by "folks playing favorites" argument. Because, if I took YOUR points, Nathan, into consideration, I would've voted my favorite, Efren, because of Efren's out-earning everyone, and out-shining everyone at very focused points throughout the decade (especially the IPT years). I didin't. I voted Ralf, for all the reasons that as I stated in my previous post, constituted what makes a true/genuine Player of the Decade. I put my favoritism aside, and feel that I truly voted omnisciently.
* One point that I neglected to make in my previous post -- and I know you and others are going to HATE me for this -- is that Mika has yet to win a non-rotation pool event. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mika's yet to win, say, an 8-ball event, or a Straight Pool event, or a One Pocket event. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest Mika came to winning any non-rotation pool event, is runner-up to Johnny Archer at the Mezz Classic 14.1 Straight Pool event, and again runner-up to Stephan Cohen at the most recent Predator World 14.1 Straight Pool event. (Ralf didn't compete in either of those two events; the Mezz was too small to travel for, and the Predator one ended up having its WPA sanctioning removed at the last minute.) Ralf, on the other hand, certainly cannot be called a one trick pony -- he's snapped-off various 8-ball (e.g. 2008 Damas World 8-ball) and 14.1 Straight Pool events (e.g. 2000 U.S. Open 14.1 Straight Pool).
* As for your thoughts on Mika being "more entertaining," some would argue that the idea of a player having whining and mumbling fits at the table -- or even after leaving the table (e.g. his episode with Oliver Ortmann during the Predator 14.1 Straight Pool Championships) -- while it could be considered "drama," wouldn't necessarily be called "entertainment." I for one don't find a whining/mumbling player to be "entertaining." A good example of what I find entertaining, is Dennis Hatch's performance during the Mosconi Cup. Now that's an entertaining player. I'm sure many would agree with that synopsis.
The intent of my post was not to get into a point-by-point dissection of each player's career (or each other's post to this thread, for that matter
), but rather to remind folks what Player of the Decade means. It's much more than "what's happening right now" or whose purse earnings were greater. It's a symbol. An intangible one at that. And for many of us, Ralf represents those qualities best.
Again, thank you for the opportunity to engage in civil colloquy, and for your wise thoughts on your standpoint.
I say this, let the poll speak for itself, and may the best player win!
-Sean
Are you sure about that? Go to the AZB "top 30 players ranking" for each year. Out of the possible 10 for this decade, Mika out earned Ralf for 8 of them. Sure you can argue about Euro tour and all that, but the fact that Mika is on that list ABOVE Ralf on 4 times more entries implies to me that Mika is indeed consistent.
Again, I disagree. I feel that it's about MAJOR wins. Mika won more titles than Ralf, plain and simple. 2 US Opens, 3 World Titles, and countless other major wins (including two runner up finishes at world & us open appearance). To me thats far more impressive than Ralf, who consistently placed, and yet hardly won any Titles.
Perhaps, but not all of us. Some of us clearly have some valid arguments as to why we choose Mika. Even Donny Mills posted that he thought Mika deserved the POTD title. Is Donny Mills just saying that to jump on the Mika train? Very doubtful.
In rebuttal to this argument, I could say that Mika is more entertaining than Ralf, which could be a contributing factor to my vote for Mika. Very few people care to watch the guy who consistently grinds his way through in conservative fashion. I want to see some actions, some excitement, and some character. Mika brings that to the table, while Ralf does not.
I do see your perspective on this, and I fully understand why people are voting for Ralf. I simply disagree. Some would say that it's because Mika's a friend of mine, but if it were that simple, I wouldn't have accumulated all the above arguments.
Cheers on your well conceived standpoint.
Nathan:
And cheers to you for your well-written rebuttal as well! Good civil debate is great, because it gets the mental gears moving. I like that.
To be fair, I think you cherry-picked only certain very-focused points in my post to rebut. That was a HUGE snip -- there were many other points in my post that I noticed were left out.
To reply to the points you make above:
* I don't know why AZBilliards doesn't monitor it, but IMHO the Euro Tour and various tours in Asia-PAC should count towards the player's resume. To overlook these are a SEVERE oversight. If the player was playing in them, and the event pays out, it should be monitored and recorded. If these unmonitored events were counted, I assure you things would be very different on that Top 30 list.
* As for your earnings argument (e.g. Mika out-earning Ralf 8 times, et al.), you then re-open the door for considering Efren -- Efren out-earned everyone. IMHO, "earnings," while important, should not be the be-all-end-all for consideration for POTD. There are other considerations to make a more well-rounded decision than earnings.
* I do stick by "folks playing favorites" argument. Because, if I took YOUR points, Nathan, into consideration, I would've voted my favorite, Efren, because of Efren's out-earning everyone, and out-shining everyone at very focused points throughout the decade (especially the IPT years). I didin't. I voted Ralf, for all the reasons that as I stated in my previous post, constituted what makes a true/genuine Player of the Decade. I put my favoritism aside, and feel that I truly voted omnisciently.
* One point that I neglected to make in my previous post -- and I know you and others are going to HATE me for this -- is that Mika has yet to win a non-rotation pool event. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mika's yet to win, say, an 8-ball event, or a Straight Pool event, or a One Pocket event. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but the closest Mika came to winning any non-rotation pool event, is runner-up to Johnny Archer at the Mezz Classic 14.1 Straight Pool event, and again runner-up to Stephan Cohen at the most recent Predator World 14.1 Straight Pool event. (Ralf didn't compete in either of those two events; the Mezz was too small to travel for, and the Predator one ended up having its WPA sanctioning removed at the last minute.) Ralf, on the other hand, certainly cannot be called a one trick pony -- he's snapped-off various 8-ball (e.g. 2008 Damas World 8-ball) and 14.1 Straight Pool events (e.g. 2000 U.S. Open 14.1 Straight Pool).
* As for your thoughts on Mika being "more entertaining," some would argue that the idea of a player having whining and mumbling fits at the table -- or even after leaving the table (e.g. his episode with Oliver Ortmann during the Predator 14.1 Straight Pool Championships) -- while it could be considered "drama," wouldn't necessarily be called "entertainment." I for one don't find a whining/mumbling player to be "entertaining." A good example of what I find entertaining, is Dennis Hatch's performance during the Mosconi Cup. Now that's an entertaining player. I'm sure many would agree with that synopsis.
The intent of my post was not to get into a point-by-point dissection of each player's career (or each other's post to this thread, for that matter
), but rather to remind folks what Player of the Decade means. It's much more than "what's happening right now" or whose purse earnings were greater. It's a symbol. An intangible one at that. And for many of us, Ralf represents those qualities best.Again, thank you for the opportunity to engage in civil colloquy, and for your wise thoughts on your standpoint.
I say this, let the poll speak for itself, and may the best player win!
-Sean
Ok, good to know.
In the first place when you put "Ralf 60, Mika 20", I thought you'd counted the 15K wins, which you were asking from me in your previous post.
Anyway, the vote doesn't tell you anything else than the puplic opinion, which can be biased and ignorant.
Ralf is a liked and admired player, and definitely deserves to be that. I also like and admire him very much.
He's just not as "big time winner" nor as good player, as Efren or Mika are.
That was loose Brunswick GC III btw.
And Efren in his prime won everybody in 8-Ball, with large margin, and you should now that.
He told me that it was IPT equipment, but it really doesn't matter.
Btw, how's the weather in Finland, Marvel?
Compare it to Golf
Ok obviously it is going to be Impossible for the majority to agree on who is their pick, because of all the different variables.
When you are comparing I think you have to compare it to golfs player of the year award.
Q. If Phil Mickelson wins 3 out of 4 majors one year and no other tournaments, and Tiger doesn't win any majors but wins like 8 or 9 events. Who is the player of the year that year??
A. Phil Mickelson. Because he wins the tournaments with the best fields, the most recognition, the most exposure and the most history.
He may not win the most money but.....
That is why I think you have to look at the major tournaments and not the over all money. Especially when it comes to winning gambling matches. I don't think that a golfer winning $300,00 in a skins game should go towards their accomplishments. Also for the people that say look at the wins in this tour and that tour.......You don't see Tiger going over and playing the Australian Tour and Central Asia Tour or Even the Euro Tour. It is tough to count a top player winning the "buyacueonline.com" open championship or something like that.
Once again you have to define what factors you are taking into consideration.
IMO the award should be given to the player who has ....
A. The most major championships against the strongest fields
B. Has played the most consistent over the decade
C. Has played the best at the discipline played the most.
On that note I have no idea who to pick.......
But I would lean towards Ralf with Mika a close second and Efren third.
Once again this would all be solved if we had a consistent worldwide pro tour, and consistent governing.
Just my Opinion,
Dave
Ok obviously it is going to be Impossible for the majority to agree on who is their pick, because of all the different variables.
When you are comparing I think you have to compare it to golfs player of the year award.
Q. If Phil Mickelson wins 3 out of 4 majors one year and no other tournaments, and Tiger doesn't win any majors but wins like 8 or 9 events. Who is the player of the year that year??
A. Phil Mickelson. Because he wins the tournaments with the best fields, the most recognition, the most exposure and the most history.
He may not win the most money but.....
That is why I think you have to look at the major tournaments and not the over all money. Especially when it comes to winning gambling matches. I don't think that a golfer winning $300,00 in a skins game should go towards their accomplishments. Also for the people that say look at the wins in this tour and that tour.......You don't see Tiger going over and playing the Australian Tour and Central Asia Tour or Even the Euro Tour. It is tough to count a top player winning the "buyacueonline.com" open championship or something like that.
Once again you have to define what factors you are taking into consideration.
IMO the award should be given to the player who has ....
A. The most major championships against the strongest fields
B. Has played the most consistent over the decade
C. Has played the best at the discipline played the most.
On that note I have no idea who to pick.......
But I would lean towards Ralf with Mika a close second and Efren third.
Once again this would all be solved if we had a consistent worldwide pro tour, and consistent governing.
Just my Opinion,
Dave
Light bulb
Ahhhhh, a big light bulb illuminates...
He told me that it was IPT equipment, but it really doesn't matter.
Btw, how's the weather in Finland, Marvel?
Ahhhhh, a big light bulb illuminates...
Lol........Btw, how's the weather in Finland, Marvel?
Marvel = Markus Juva, runner up World Cup of Pool playing together with
*drums*
*more drums*
MIKA IMMONEN
*applause*
Still, he has many valid points campaigning for his favourite, but perhaps a bit biased...
That has to be the best post of this thread.
It is really true that all three of them, Ralf, Mika and Efren, are worthy winners.
I just hope that Ralf gets it, because I mean he has been THE player of the decade.
He told me that it was IPT equipment, but it really doesn't matter.
Btw, how's the weather in Finland, Marvel?
Roy, you can check it from http://www.weather.com/common/drilldown/FI.html
And hey, you probably didn't read this from my previous post:
"And to give you more perspective, I have been asked many time "who's your favourite player", and every time I've mentioned Efren, few times Souquet. Never Mika.
So, this is not a fan talk."
But I can confess, that the more I think of this, the more closer it's getting. Still, I'd rather give it to Efren instead of Ralf, simply because of the winning factor. Ralf is a winner for sure like Mika and Efren, but he's just not as good, and you can see that in the results.
Imo, Ralf would torch Mika gambling if he gambled.
I know that Ralf doesn't gamble but I'd say with his methodic demeanor and calm, cool presence he'd be tough for anyone to handle in a long gambling session.
Again, just hypothetical as I'm sure we'll never know the answer.
On a side note, I hope Mika steps in the box against Shane sometime in 10-ball since he's winning everything. I think it will put a lot of things in perspective for a lot of people.
I know that Ralf doesn't gamble but I'd say with his methodic demeanor and calm, cool presence he'd be tough for anyone to handle in a long gambling session.
Again, just hypothetical as I'm sure we'll never know the answer.
On a side note, I hope Mika steps in the box against Shane sometime in 10-ball since he's winning everything. I think it will put a lot of things in perspective for a lot of people.
gpeezy
for sale!
I think Mika has no out playing Ralph if they gambled. Agreed