*Player of the decade*

[Marvel]

Maybe you can start the Markus Juva rating system where YOUR majors are given more weight than others. Of course it still wouldn't carry much weight in everyones eyes as it is still only your opinion among many opinions.

Vette, what I have tried to do, is to look this from all the sides. Not only from my subjective and stubborn side.
I have tried to give weigh to tourneys, according to the Top Pros opinions, which I'm quite well aware.

In the last post I even took the humane part into consideration.

 

[corvette1340]

fair enough. /Thread

Ralf wins. :wink:

 

[Marvel]

fair enough. /Thread

Ralf wins. :wink:

Ehem, weeeellll, grrhmmhhh... :frown: :sorry: :

Ok.



:wink:

:boring2:

 

[Celtic]

I voted for Ralf because of his overall record during this decade. He has yet to have a bad year.

If you are going to be that blunt and just put that out there like a fact please tell me how...

2005 winning $26,102 without a single win on the international stage was not a bad year? He made that much during a year when there was a freaking IPT event. Efren made $279,169 in this year.

2003 he won the BCA open which is a nice win for $15,000 but he played alot more tournaments on the international stage and managed to make $34,585. To put things in perspective in the same year Efren on the international stage made about $86,000, (I took out his San Miguel money to make things fair). Given we are looking for THE player of the decade you need to compare him with OTHER people who could be player of the decade, and Efren killed him in these two years.

In fact, compare

Efren Reyes

2009 Winnings: $23,075

2008 Winnings: $10,677

2007 Winnings: $54,355

2006 Winnings: $644,960

2005 Winnings: $279,169

2004 Winnings: $124,150

2003 Winnings: $106,050

2002 Winnings: $126,200

2001 Winnings: $215,362

2000 Winnings: $79,930

to

Ralf Souquet

2009 Winnings: $74,585

2008 Winnings: $171, 852

2007 Winnings: $43,287

2006 Winnings: $219,350

2005 Winnings: $26,102

2004 Winnings: $40,515

2003 Winnings: $34,585

2002 Winnings: $79,167

2001 Winnings: $54,609

2000 Winnings: $48,100

From 2000 to 2006 it was not even close, Efren CRUSHED him.

Efren gets 2007 outright too, he played a single San Miguel and won $2500, so go ahead and remove that and you have Ralf and Efren playing/having access to the same events for that year. Except the Mosconi Cup that Efren cannot compete in, so Ralf got $20k there, he actually made a whopping $23,287 total in non-team events on the international stage, good year?.

For the last 2 years Ralf has beaten Efren, and people in this sport have short memories. It is player of the decade, and winning the last 2 years does not make Ralf consistent compared to a guy who outplayed him from 2000-2007 for 8 years straight and got outplayed for the last 2.

My math?

8 > 2

It would seem others disagree and think 2 years should be worth more then 8.

When Efren and Ralf played in the same events for the last decade Efren had WAY more success. That is a simple cold hard fact.

 

[Marvel]

If you are going to be that blunt and just put that out there like a fact please tell me how...

2005 winning $26,102 without a single win on the international stage was not a bad year? He made that much during a year when there was a freaking IPT event. Efren made $279,169 in this year.

2003 he won the BCA open which is a nice win for $15,000 but he played alot more tournaments on the international stage and managed to make $34,585. To put things in perspective in the same year Efren on the international stage made about $86,000, (I took out his San Miguel money to make things fair). Given we are looking for THE player of the decade you need to compare him with OTHER people who could be player of the decade, and Efren killed him in these two years.

In fact, compare

Efren Reyes

2009 Winnings: $23,075

2008 Winnings: $10,677

2007 Winnings: $54,355

2006 Winnings: $644,960

2005 Winnings: $279,169

2004 Winnings: $124,150

2003 Winnings: $106,050

2002 Winnings: $126,200

2001 Winnings: $215,362

2000 Winnings: $79,930

to

Ralf Souquet

2009 Winnings: $74,585

2008 Winnings: $171, 852

2007 Winnings: $43,287

2006 Winnings: $219,350

2005 Winnings: $26,102

2004 Winnings: $40,515

2003 Winnings: $34,585

2002 Winnings: $79,167

2001 Winnings: $54,609

2000 Winnings: $48,100

From 2000 to 2006 it was not even close, Efren CRUSHED him.

Efren gets 2007 outright too, he played a single San Miguel and won $2500, so go ahead and remove that and you have Ralf and Efren playing/having access to the same events for that year. Except the Mosconi Cup that Efren cannot compete in, so Ralf got $20k there, he actually made a whopping $23,287 total in non-team events on the international stage, good year?.

For the last 2 years Ralf has beaten Efren, and people in this sport have short memories. It is player of the decade, and winning the last 2 years does not make Ralf consistent compared to a guy who outplayed him from 2000-2007 for 8 years straight and got outplayed for the last 2.

My math?

8 > 2

It would seem others disagree and think 2 years should be worth more then 8.

When Efren and Ralf played in the same events for the last decade Efren had WAY more success. That is a simple cold hard fact.

Celtic, my friend, you came too late. I died already.

(whispering: add that 30K for Efren in the 2009, from the WCOP, and Ralf 15K. and don't take away the San Miguels, as Ralf is having most of his Euro Tours there also, he just didn't win a single one, during early 2003 and late 2008)


(I'm not here anymore, I left already :ignore

 

[Island Drive]

I think if both these players matched up with Efren for a 100K winner take all match each year one time for ten years in a row, for a total of one mil, my money would be on Effie to win more games out of ten matches over a ten year period, mind you he had eye issues for a year or two.

 

[Celtic]

I think if both these players matched up with Efren for a 100K winner take all match each year one time for ten years in a row, for a total of one mil, my money would be on Effie to win more games out of ten matches over a ten year period, mind you he had eye issues for a year or two.

If they had done that each year for the 2000-2010 period which is in question for the Player of the Decade Efren would have slaughtered them. For 2000-2007 Efren was a huge favorite against either Ralf or Mika. In tournaments, gambling, it did not matter.

Efren was bar none the best and most feared player for most of 2000-2010. He was considered by almost everybody as the best player in the world from 2000-2007. He was the most successful player in that time span as well. I have no clue how everyone thinks Ralf should get the award for the last decade just because Efren hit some health issues right at the tail end of the decade. If you dominate the pool scene for 80% of a decade you are the player of that decade, period.

 

[Island Drive]

If they had done that each year for the 2000-2010 period which is in question for the Player of the Decade Efren would have slaughtered them. For 2000-2007 Efren was a huge favorite against either Ralf or Mika. In tournaments, gambling, it did not matter.

Efren was bar none the best and most feared player for most of 2000-2010. He was considered by almost everybody as the best player in the world from 2000-2007. He was the most successful player in that time span as well. I have no clue how everyone thinks Ralf should get the award for the last decade just because Efren hit some health issues right at the tail end of the decade. If you dominate the pool scene for 80% of a decade you are the player of that decade, period.

Add to that he's in the HOF too..........................

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Add to that he's in the HOF too..........................

And add to it also that "The Kaiser" is a lock to also be enshrined in the H.O.F.

This thread is like a see-saw....one side tips, then the other side...back & forth. Good points for the players all thru this thread.

Maybe the powers that be can feed all the statistical information into some super computer and then have it make the decision. In 1969, Ali and Marciano participated in something like that. Of course, the result of the computer's decision stirred a firestorm of debate! :grin:

 

[watchez]

Efren gets my vote - the way he dominated the IPT and the DCC, IMO, makes him above all others.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Holly makes a very good point that this is the "player" of the decade and Allison and Karen have earned a place on this poll as well. So, before I post another I'd like some input on what everyone thinks.

Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
1. Allison Fisher is the greatest female player of all time. No contest. She wins the P.O.D. by a landslide. Even bigger than that! So I think, believe and know she is the WOMAN P.O.D.

2.Ralf vs Efren is a razor thin contest. Even closer than that! So I think a 2 man run-off is in order first thing Monday morning. Maybe let it run a week and then....the peeps have spoken! :grin:

 

[Celtic]

In 1969, Ali and Marciano participated in something like that. Of course, the result of the computer's decision stirred a firestorm of debate! :grin:

Whats to debate? The undefeated fighter was still undefeated after the match. Seemed pretty cut and dry to me.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

I'm going to Hijack this thread for just one moment....

Whats to debate? The undefeated fighter was still undefeated after the match. Seemed pretty cut and dry to me.

Oh Celtic! Why did you have to say that?

You have a 5'10" man weighing 189 lbs who hit super hard with great endurance vs a 6'3" 215 lb man who was hard to hit with a handful of rice at 10 feet. He did get hit though. But Ali took the best shots of Liston, Cleveland Williams, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, and Shavers, all of who hit as hard if not harder than the Rock. And he beat them all. Ali fought waaay better opponants than Marciano did.

I would have bet my entire Accu-Stats collection, every pool related thing I own against a bag of Cheetos that Ali would have W15 vs Rocky. Styles make fights, and Ali was the worst possible style for Marciano. Jersey Joe and Ezzard Charles gave Marciano fits and they were only in the 190's weight wise.

Archie Moore knocked Rocky down in Marciano's last fight before he retired undeafeated at 49-0. And at that time, the Mongoose was a 42 year old light-heavyweight!

Plus, the computer picked several different endings to the fight each time they ran the info. When it was shown on closed circuit TV, even Ali & Marciano did not know which version with what ending would be played.

You got in my head bad with that post of yours! :grin: Normally, you make a lot of sense here!:grin:

 

[eezbank]

I think that is where much of the problem is when doing a poll like this. The gaps between the top three could easily flip when you limit the options. The results may be totally different. I was thinking four choices. Souquet, Reyes, immonen, Allison Fisher.

Thanks for taking the time to answer the question Terry. I think you were the only person I got a reply from

Eric,
1. Allison Fisher is the greatest female player of all time. No contest. She wins the P.O.D. by a landslide. Even bigger than that! So I think, believe and know she is the WOMAN P.O.D.

2.Ralf vs Efren is a razor thin contest. Even closer than that! So I think a 2 man run-off is in order first thing Monday morning. Maybe let it run a week and then....the peeps have spoken! :grin:

 

[Celtic]

You got in my head bad with that post of yours! :grin: Normally, you make a lot of sense here!:grin:

It all depends. Did Foreman hit harder then Rocky? I am not sure, Foreman was a tough dude but he hit Ali so bloody many times in the "Rope a Dope" fight that he simply fell asleep at the end out of exhaustion. After all that damage Ali still looked worse after the Frazier fight. Ali sure as heck better not try to use the same tactic in a fight against Marciano because seriously, he would not stay on his feet through some of the punches Marciano would hit him with. One of Foreman's issues was as much power as he had he was NOT an accurate puncher, Ali was able to avoid alot of the damage. Marciano was a vastly more accurate puncher who picked his punches alot more carefully, he did not flail and throw wild punches, he picked them carefully and thus will not wear out like Foreman and nor will he have the rate of missed punches Foreman had.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQEL5sd2aOo

The Walcott knockout would knock out any fighter in the world, ever.

The thing about Marciano's style from what I got watching all the footage I could find was he was not a reckless puncher, he would not sit in the middle of the ring flailing and throwing punches at Ali, he would stalk him throwing few punches using the ring and trying to cut him off into the ropes or a corner, only then would he unleash. And from there Ali better duck and weave well because Marciano was a very accurate puncher to go along with that power. Ali simply does not want to be on the ropes with Marciano throwing punches, he better be ready to dance for 15 rounds.

And Ali had a problem with that. Ali always ended up in fights. Frazier and him ended up simply kicking the living crap out of each other. Frazier and Foreman are the primary reason Ali is the way he is today. You go slugging with Marciano like you do with Frazier you are going to get hit HARD and often. Ali is going to get hit if he fights Marciano, and if Marciano is hitting you then you don't have to win no matter who you are.

Yeah Ali was bigger, but Marciano fought alot of bigger guys and every one of those fights ended up with Marciano being the aggressor and stalking the larger man around the ring. If a guy hits as hard as the bigger man and takes a shot as well as the bigger man then the only benefit of size is that you can physically dominate the smaller man by pushing him around the ring, but NOONE did that with Marciano, they tried, and then they learned better and instead backpeddled their way through the rest of the fight while Marciano was crouched low ready to knock them out attempting to block them into a corner or get them moving to Marciano's right along the ropes so he could then cut them off with a hook and start leaning on the ropes where they were now simply a punching bag.

Marciano had some decent competition, Joe Louis was no slouch even though he was at the tail end of his career, and Walcott was actually a great fighter who just happened to coexist in Marciano's era. Ezzard Charles took the belt from Joe Louis and Marciano beat him up a couple times.

Archie Moore actually fought Ali in 1962 and went into the 4th round WAY over the hill, so that guy was something of a decent fighter, and Marciano fought and beat him in 1955, alot closer to his prime. Marciano was knocked down in the second, but then he went on to knock Moore down 5 times before knocking him out. Take the 7 years off of Moore and I would be interested to see how long it takes Ali to win. Archie was what, 49 when he fought Ali?

It is the endless debate, it is Mosconi vs Efren, who would win all things being equal? Who the heck knows they are both awesome. But I grew up with alot of Italians and when an Italian is a tough Italian they are REALLY tough. And Marciano was as tough as they come.

 

[mnorwood]

Ralf has my vote.

 

[Celtic]

Ralf has my vote.

Ralf? Give me a break, Marciano or Ali would knock him out in less then 10 seconds.

 

[Fatboy]

I was doing commentary with JA one nite or heard him on a stream-I cant remember which but I do remember he said "Ralf would be my choice". Thats a pretty strong endorsment.

the young guyd like Shane just havent been out there long enough to earn that recognition,

its a tough pick between Efren and Ralf.

What happens if you play perfect and beat the world from 1015 to 2025 and played terrible from 2010-2014 and 2026-2030???? your on the 50 yard line. You cant just wake up and say "Well its 2010, I'm going to beat the world for 10 years, then get weak. I say this cause this is kinda what happened to Efren, he had his streak in the middle of 2 different decades.

 

[Celtic]

I say this cause this is kinda what happened to Efren, he had his streak in the middle of 2 different decades.

I sort of agree but Efren was the most dominant player in 2006 by far when the IPT was going. He won the King of the Hill with 40 of the top pro's in the world AND the World Open 8-ball for 500k. He got 4th in the North American Open Championship which was won by Hohmann. Noone else came even remotely close to what Efren did when the money truly went on the table in a big way in the IPT. Not Ralf, not anybody. If anything the IPT proved that some people in the world had some higher gears that would show if the money was ramped up and they started practicing and getting serious, Ralf proved he is already playing at his high gear and that when the others get that fire and start putting that effort in they edge him out. Reyes when he really wants to be at his peak flat out shoots better and is more able to win then Ralf.

Efren did not dominate half of the 2000-2010, he basically dominated 2000-2006, that is 70% of the decade. He actually beat Ralf in 2007 winnings as well.

So the real question is how does a guy play at a lower level from 2000-2007 then another player, and then win the last 2 years of the decade, and win player of the decade? Simple, because people have short memories. If you had asked this in 2007 who should win player of the decade everyone on this forum would be saying it is not even close and that Efren dominated the decade to date, and at that point 80% of the decade was already over.

Sorry but 2 good years don't beat out the 8 previous great years Efren had.

80% > 20%

 

[Fatboy]

I sort of agree but Efren was the most dominant player in 2006 by far when the IPT was going. He won the King of the Hill with 40 of the top pro's in the world AND the World Open 8-ball for 500k. He got 4th in the North American Open Championship which was won by Hohmann. Noone else came even remotely close to what Efren did when the money truly went on the table in a big way in the IPT. Not Ralf, not anybody. If anything the IPT proved that some people in the world had some higher gears that would show if the money was ramped up and they started practicing and getting serious, Ralf proved he is already playing at his high gear and that when the others get that fire and start putting that effort in they edge him out. Reyes when he really wants to be at his peak flat out shoots better and is more able to win then Ralf.

Efren did not dominate half of the 2000-2010, he basically dominated 2000-2006, that is 70% of the decade. He actually beat Ralf in 2007 winnings as well.

So the real question is how does a guy play at a lower level from 2000-2007 then another player, and then win the last 2 years of the decade, and win player of the decade? Simple, because people have short memories. If you had asked this in 2007 who should win player of the decade everyone on this forum would be saying it is not even close and that Efren dominated the decade to date, and at that point 80% of the decade was already over.

Sorry but 2 good years don't beat out the 8 previous great years Efren had.

80% > 20%

you raise a interesting point, what has happened in the past 3 or 4 years is easier to remember and will most likely count for more. Kinda like a boxer who is losing the round at 2 minutes and 45 seconds but in the last 15 seconds of the round comes in and lands a pile of punches-that can sway a judge because it just happened. In contrast to the first 15 seconds of the round tend to be forgotten. I suspect thats why people voted for SVB he has been dominate recently-but where was he in 2001?? The most recent success is the most remembered when it comes to things like this.

best
eric