My thoughts on conventional shaft vs. low deflection shaft

[RBC]

Eric,

I look forward to the next time we meet!

We have to trade some shots for fun.

I don't think I will be at the Derby City, but I will be in Valley Forge, will you?

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

 

[Maniac]

At this point, i'm pretty much feeling the same way. Ever heard the term, "kicking tires"?

Yep, AND the term "beating a dead horse". I'd be pullin' my hair out if I had any !!!

I know so little about physics in regards to pool that it's embarrasskin'!!!

Maniac

 

[Celtic]

I believe even those who are now world class pros would be more accurate. I don't believe this is debatable - it would be like arguing that sharpshooters aren't more accurate with less crosswind.

Accuracy in pool does not end in ball potting. A large part of the feel of a shaft is being able to work the cueball with exact amounts of spin that get you the shape you need to run racks.

Yes a predator "MAY" increase the ball potting ability of a pro over time.

That increase in ball potting ability using a predator "MAY" also be coming at the price of worse feel leading to weaker shape play.

 

[Nick B]

Come on Celtic. Let's keep it logical here. The ball does not know what device have delivered the forces. The LD shafts require different aiming points the rest is as always. The vectors and forces applied are equal. They get delivered to Cueball. It travels to object balls and the laws of physics take over.

Do you golf? Do you still use old style wooden drivers? The older drivers felt better and definitely sounded and felt better. The new technology allows me to go 40 yards farther and stay within the boundaries. Can you please explain to me how I will achieve less accurate shape with a LD type product? Preds/OBs do not come with guidance system.

Accuracy in pool does not end in ball potting. A large part of the feel of a shaft is being able to work the cueball with exact amounts of spin that get you the shape you need to run racks.

Yes a predator "MAY" increase the ball potting ability of a pro over time.

That increase in ball potting ability using a predator "MAY" also be coming at the price of worse feel leading to weaker shape play.

 

[enzo]

Accuracy in pool does not end in ball potting. A large part of the feel of a shaft is being able to work the cueball with exact amounts of spin that get you the shape you need to run racks.

Yes a predator "MAY" increase the ball potting ability of a pro over time.

That increase in ball potting ability using a predator "MAY" also be coming at the price of worse feel leading to weaker shape play.

nice post. although i think ld shafts do give a professional the capacity to be more accurate, your post makes a very good point.

 

[enzo]

Come on Celtic. Let's keep it logical here. The ball does not know what device have delivered the forces. The LD shafts require different aiming points the rest is as always. The vectors and forces applied are equal. They get delivered to Cueball. It travels to object balls and the laws of physics take over.

Do you golf? Do you still use old style wooden drivers? The older drivers felt better and definitely sounded and felt better. The new technology allows me to go 40 yards farther and stay within the boundaries. Can you please explain to me how I will achieve less accurate shape with a LD type product? Preds/OBs do not come with guidance system.

he definitely made a point to say "may," not that he needs me to defend him.

i would have a tendency to agree with his sentiment. usually with anything, if there is a gain somewhere, there will probably be some sort of loss or disadvantage as well.

 

[Nick B]

I simply want to address how LD type equipment produces less accuracy in position. I don't think (read know) what science this is based on. I have hit many "natural" shafts that are LD in nature (Low squirt). They nor Engineered Shafts produce less shape accuracy.

If we are going to base the fact that superior feedback produces better feel and thus position I call BS. Once I delivered the cue to the cueball it's all over but the crying.

he definitely made a point to say "may," not that he needs me to defend him.

i would have a tendency to agree with his sentiment. usually with anything, if there is a gain somewhere, there will probably be some sort of loss or disadvantage as well.

 

[Cornerman]

I simply want to address how LD type equipment produces less accuracy in position. I don't think (read know) what science this is based on. I have hit many "natural" shafts that are LD in nature (Low squirt). They nor Engineered Shafts produce less shape accuracy.

If we are going to base the fact that superior feedback produces better feel and thus position I call BS. Once I delivered the cue to the cueball it's all over but the crying.

I think the answers to these questions are obviousl to players like me, but maybe it's not obvious to you. Therefore, any answer will not be logical in your view. Is that a fair statement?

There are generally only a couple things to consider. What do you feel is the net advantage of an LD shaft? If a person like say me tells you that after years of playing with both, that that particular "advantage" is not a advantage for my game, then what's left?

This whole idea of an LD shaft is "more accurate" only has one area of perceived advantage: firm english shot where swerve really isn't in play. And if many of us who already can shoot with firm english with a regular shaft and get no additional benefit with a LD shaft, isn't that enough for LD proponents to just let it go at that?

I'm not saying that a regular shaft is better, so please don't try to turn this around. But, if I don't get a benefit from the LD shaft using english, and it has actually reduced my game because swerve-dominant shots are now harder to control (and Nick, you and I would take hours of one-on-on discussion on that for you to truly understand what I mean here because forums suck for this), then that's too much of a disadvantage for my game. And remember, I tried a Predator shaft for over a year. Twice.

Please, will all of you LD proponents just accept the fact that an LD shaft isn't going to improve everyone's game. Is that too difficult? There's too much proof that many players have tried and it didn't offer up the advantage to their game. Everyone's game needs different things for improvement.

Fred

 

[thepavlos]

This is honestly one of the silliest ongoing debates on this forum. This has to be as relevant as a debate on which joint configuration, tip, wrap (insert any variable you choose here) is best. All it comes down to once again is whatever you like and are accustomed to. The example I always remember was the proposition shot where you freeze a ball on the bottom rail one diamond over from the pocket, place the cue ball on the head spot and cut it into the further corner pocket. My friend was challenged and he borrowed some predator shaft cue and kept missing it by a mile, I come in and he asks to use my ivory ferruled maple shaft, nails it on the first try. Why, because that is what he was used to for the previous 20 or so years.

 

[Island Drive]

In a nutshell, when your shooting a straight in shot your approach will be the same no matter what shaft you use. On a cut shot with anything but center english, your approach will be predetermined by the amount of deflection your cue has along with speed of hit. By playing with a cue for years your muscle/memory already has this figured out. Current playing conditions will force you into making small adjustments to settle in to the particular playing surface conditons your currently dealing with.

 

[spliced]

As far as LD shafts feeling "dead" or not giving enough feedback, I have owned a couple of 3142s and they dont feel bad at all imo. They feel solid to me. I still get as much feedback as my solid maple shafts.

And imo swerve shots are easier with a LD shaft because now you only have to account for swerve instead of the combination of swerve and squirt. Once you learn the swerve capabilities of your LD shaft you will be able to play those shots with confidence, same as a solid maple shaft. Get used to either one and you will be fine.

I like my solid shafts but I dont like needing to aim to completely miss the ball when shooting a thin cut with sidespin. When shooting the same shot with sidespin, I can aim where I intend to hit, factoring in swerve but not needing to factor in squirt. That is the benefit of an LD shaft. They still have a little squirt but not nearly as much as my solid maple shafts, and I am at a much higher percentage to hit where I intend when I'm using spin. Even though the LD shaft does have a little squirt, I personally just treat it like a no-squirt shaft and do ok.

Once you learn how much your particular shaft causes swerve, squirt, and throw, you can play with anything. LD shafts just dont squirt as much, and I like that.

 

[Maniac]

This is honestly one of the silliest ongoing debates on this forum.

Actually, after thinking it over, I think the debate on whether or not to wear a glove while shooting is sillier than this one . Wanna argue about it for 5 or 6 pages ???

Maniac

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe even those who are now world class pros would be more accurate. I don't believe this is debatable - it would be like arguing that sharpshooters aren't more accurate with less crosswind.

Celtic:
Accuracy in pool does not end in ball potting. A large part of the feel of a shaft is being able to work the cueball with exact amounts of spin that get you the shape you need to run racks.

Yes a predator "MAY" increase the ball potting ability of a pro over time.

That increase in ball potting ability using a predator "MAY" also be coming at the price of worse feel leading to weaker shape play.

I won't argue with this. The "feel" of your cue is important to you and can make a real difference in how well you play. Even though I think players just like what they're familiar with and could get comfortable with a low-squirt cue's feel, if you don't want to take the time to get familiar and comfortable with a low-squirt cue, then I think you should stick with what you've got.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Fred:
This whole idea of an LD shaft is "more accurate" only has one area of perceived advantage: firm english shot where swerve really isn't in play.

Are you saying that because swerve counteracts squirt, squirt only matters when there's no swerve? The problem with this argument is that, even though squirt and swerve counteract each other, swerve doesn't make it any less necessary to accurately estimate the amount of squirt in order to make an accurate combined adjustment. Swerve doesn't make squirt go away; it makes it less obvious but not less important.

The fact that one counteracts the other is irrelevant and misleading. If they both acted in the same direction, so that instead of counteracting each other they added to each other, it would be obvious that reducing either would be a clear advantage because the overall estimate would be reduced and simplified. But the fact that they act in opposite directions doesn't change the fact that we still have to estimate each just as accurately in order to estimate their combined effect accurately. So reducing the difficulty of either estimate still makes the overall adjustment easier and more accurate (to whatever degree, large or small).

And if many of us who already can shoot with firm english with a regular shaft and get no additional benefit with a LD shaft, isn't that enough for LD proponents to just let it go at that?

I don't think anybody is trying to convince you to switch; it's perfectly legitimate that personal preferences can outweigh the (perhaps relatively minor) objective advantage of low squirt. But it's also perfectly legitimate, and useful, to explore and discuss exactly where the line is drawn between preference and objective advantage.

...if I don't get a benefit from the LD shaft using english, and it has actually reduced my game because swerve-dominant shots are now harder to control, then that's too much of a disadvantage for my game.

I think adjusting for squirt+swerve is objectively less complicated with less squirt, but I accept that personal preferences can "trump" this (again, perhaps relatively minor) advantage.

Please, will all of you LD proponents just accept the fact that an LD shaft isn't going to improve everyone's game. Is that too difficult?

LD shafts have an objective feature (only one as far as I know) whose subjective value reasonable people may weigh differently. I don't see why anybody on either "side" should get pissy about that, or why it shouldn't be discussed at length and in detail. I agree that we assert things on both sides that are too generalized to be really accurate, but that's inevitable in discussions like this - I think we just have to clarify as best we can as we go without letting these missteps get blown out of proportion so they derail useful conversation.

pj
chgo

 

[Ratta]

Very good post Patrick-
I m also asking myself what could be so difficult just to *discuss* about a material-question.

happy new year,

lg
Ingo

 

[qbilder]

Eric,

I look forward to the next time we meet!

We have to trade some shots for fun.

I don't think I will be at the Derby City, but I will be in Valley Forge, will you?

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Sure thing, Royce. I plan on VF, but it's not a lock yet. I gotta book a room or find a room to split yet. I have not been there yet & have heard it's the mecca for people in the industry like us. Sounds fun.

I'm looking forward to it, buddy.

 

[Cornerman]

Are you saying that because swerve counteracts squirt, squirt only matters when there's no swerve?

No, I'm not saying that at all. There is no advantage or disadvantage when both squirt and swerve are involved. There is no advantage with LD shafts when there's only squirt involved (though many in your camp believe there is). Please don't twist my words. I've been the one for years saying that there is no advantage either way. Not for my game. Not for many people's. Likewise, LD shafts have proven to help other people's games.


Forget it.

LD shafts have an objective feature (only one as far as I know) whose subjective value reasonable people may disagree about. I don't see why anybody on either "side" should get pissy about that, or why it shouldn't be discussed at length and in detail.

I guess you missed all of the posts, especially the original poster who claims in reason #3 of why people don't make the switch is because of stubbornness. I don't need permission to get offended.

I agree that we assert things on both sides that are too generalized to be really accurate, but that's inevitable in discussions like this - I think we just have to clarify as best we can as we go without letting these missteps get blown out of proportion so they derail useful conversation.

pj
chgo

Reasonable discussion goes out the door with these discussion in low squirt cues because it's like discussing religion and politics.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Fred:
I guess you missed all of the posts, especially the original poster who claims in reason #3 of why people don't make the switch is because of stubbornness. I don't need permission to get offended.

Or much reason - kinda like me. It's one of my new-decade resolutions.

Reasonable discussion goes out the door with these discussion the belief in low squirt cues are like discussing religion and politics.

I know from long experience with you that you usually don't let the religious fanatics determine the tone of the conversation.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Are you saying that because swerve counteracts squirt, squirt only matters when there's no swerve?

Fred:
No, I'm not saying that at all.
...
Please don't twist my words.

Fred, maybe you can see what I'm getting at from this quote of yours:

Fred:
I don't get a benefit from the LD shaft using english, and it has actually reduced my game because swerve-dominant shots are now harder to control

I'd be interested in hearing more detail if you're not already burnt out on all of this.

pj
chgo

 

[jetlau3]

I'm a little newer to the forum so please excuse my ignorance.. The difference between swerve and squirt?? Is swerve what I call throw? Squirt is when the cueball is pushed to the right of the aim line when you use heavy left hand english? Is swerve how you have to compensate for how much further right the object ball goes after being hit by the cue when you use left english due to the 'throw'? Sorry confused..

I play a traditional maple shaft by Jim Buss. When I hit a hard left handed english shot, sometimes I have to compensate more for squirt than throw...