Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

1pRoscoe said:
I've spoken to many cuemakers over the years and something that I've been told a few times by various cuemakers has been on my mind and I wanted to get a general consensus here....

I can count 3 different cuemakers that have told me they make forearms for other cuemakers. They will not tell me who they do this for and I can't even begin to guess in any account who they may be. They do this either because the purchasing cuemaker either doesn't have the knowledge or equipment necessary to make a spliced point forearm.

So with the 3 that have told me they do this, I'm sure there are many others..... but come to think of it, I've never seen or heard of a custom cuemaker say, "I've made this nice 4pt cue using [xyz cuemaker's] forearm." (the clear exception are Davis and Prather - and sometimes the latter isn't disclosed)

If you're contacting a cuemaker to purchase a cue from them and you specify that you want a pointed cue or an inlaid buttsleeve, would you find it to be deceptive if they didn't build the entire cue? I'm sure there are tons of secrets among cuemakers but this is one that I honestly think is deceptive to the customer.

Would you be pissed after the fact and want to return the cue? Any other thoughts?

I would love to hear cuemaker's thoughts on this topic as well...
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I build every short spiced here in my shop. If I have a customer order a full splice cue I let them know up front that I order them in to build them. I also let them know what kind of blank that I am using! I believe that you have to completely honest with my customers. They have the right to know if I build it or if someone else builds it. It is just good business ethics to be honest and upfront with the customer!!!
 
patrickcues said:
I build every short spiced here in my shop. If I have a customer order a full splice cue I let them know up front that I order them in to build them. I also let them know what kind of blank that I am using! I believe that you have to completely honest with my customers. They have the right to know if I build it or if someone else builds it. It is just good business ethics to be honest and upfront with the customer!!!
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And quite frankly, that's how it should be....
 
As far as the attitude of "Shut up, it's none of your business what's in this cue." As soon as I heard that I would know that I needed to be looking somewhere else for a cue.

is a lot different than

"What pisses me off, is someone who doesn't make cues to sit there and dictate what a cue maker is, or how a cue maker should work in his shop. If you want to start your own shop and show us how it's done, be my guest, but if you ain't got no shop, shut the f--- up."

Which means, when I hear people who don't make cues tell cue makers how it should be done, it irritates me, and rightly so. It doesn't mean I withhold information from my prospective buyers, which is twisting things.

We all know what's right and wrong here and this thread is starting to get out of hand, so I'm going to finish by saying that I appreciate everything you do for the pool industry, and especially that interview with Ernie. That was good stuff. Most of the times, when I read your posts, you are accurate, but at times, your emotions get you off track for one reason or another and that distracts you from seeing the point.

JCIN said:
Not sure what to tell you on that one. I quoted your post directly. I have no intention of making you look one way or the other I simply responded to words you wrote.
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seems to me

Roger Long said:
If we are to use this type of reasoning, then George Balabushka was just another assembler. I know his name - along with a few others - have already been brought up here as cue makers who built cues from other people's blanks, and these legendary cue makers have been given a pass on this issue due to their legendary status; but I will question, why?

I have built a lot of cues over the past 18 years, and I can tell you that (IMO) assembling and finishing the cue are the most difficult parts of getting the whole thing right. Especially the finish! (Ugh, I don't even want to talk about the finish.) Sure, it takes a lot of skill to set up the machinery to cut inlays and points, but once that machinery is set, it does most of the work for you. And once it's done cutting, you're right back to being an "assembler."

There's just so much more to good cue building than being able to cut even points and sharp inlays. We should be giving more credit to the great "assemblers" out there.

Roger
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Roger,

Seems to me that since assembly is so easy and the components so easy to locate that anyone that pays more than a hundred over component price for a typical cue must be a dummy. They can stick it together themselves in their garage!

Everybody can cut bondo and spray paint too but I had a six month waiting list at my shop for years. I didn't make anything, I didn't design anything, and there were shops all around me that worked far cheaper begging for business. All I did was put parts together the way they were supposed to be put together and spray a little paint over them. Surely there wasn't anything special about my shop.

I wonder why people waited six months or more and then paid me quite a bit more money to use exactly the same components most other shops used?

Hu
 
1pRoscoe said:
You are the king of horrible analogies, Dave.... Seriously.
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why is that bc you said? every analogy i have made is 100% accurate and perfectly translates into our conversation. youve already admitted knowing nothing on the matter so why are you still posting?

also so far you have said many times without saying it directly you wont order a cue from me. do you think this bothers me.

hate to tell you i prob wouldnt make you a cue. ive known that for years. you are more trouble then your worth. thats why in my 5000+ posts i cant recall ever speaking to you. youre a huge pain in the a$$. 99% of your posts are smarta$$ remarks... not worth it
 
dave sutton said:
why is that bc you said? every analogy i have made is 100% accurate and perfectly translates into our conversation. youve already admitted knowing nothing on the matter so why are you still posting?

also so far you have said many times without saying it directly you wont order a cue from me. do you think this bothers me.

hate to tell you i prob wouldnt make you a cue. ive known that for years. you are more trouble then your worth. thats why in my 5000+ posts i cant recall ever speaking to you. youre a huge pain in the a$$. 99% of your posts are smarta$$ remarks... not worth it
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Because carmakers are assemblers.

quite the opposite, dave... I've ordered a few dozen cues from many different cuemakers... funny how several of them ask my opinions and value what I have to say. I've actually considered getting something from you a few times, but it's your attitude that turns me off. I do wish you well in your endeavors.

I will say that I would prefer to give my money to people who actually care about delivering a quality product.

I've been told my many more than one cuemaker that I'm incredibly patient and understanding and a joy to work with... Perhaps you could actually have to joy of my favorite request of many cuemakers whom I respect.... which is, "Here's a weight and balance, surprise me for $1500."

You never know who your audience is, so it's best to be cordial to all...
 
1pRoscoe said:
I will say that I would prefer to give my money to people who actually care about delivering a quality product.
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see this is my problem and why i have a bad attitude twards you. have you ever seen or played with one of my cues. have you ever spoken to me in person or on the phone. how do you know anything about what i deliver as far as quality. yes i do have a bad attitude when people open their mouth about things they dont know about and are 100% wrong. youve already admitted to not knowing. i can go down the list of makers that used blanks. have u ever heard of a titlist? tad ernie g? they all started using blanks bc it is expensive and difficult and takes years of learning to be a good maker... back then titlists were a dime a dozen. today titlists are "history"

you do have good points. i agree sometimes then a stupid sentence like this takes alllllll them good points and throws them in the trashcan next to this one.

no where in this trainwreck of a thread has one name of a cuemaker been said to get 1000$+ for someone elses blank... name me one if you can?

im not the one with the bad attitude sir
 
dave sutton said:
no where in this trainwreck of a thread has one name of a cuemaker been said to get 1000$+ for someone elses blank... name me one if you can?
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Well, have you gotten $1000+ for one of your 4 point, 4 veneer cues?
Cause I know where you bought your blanks.

Oh the irony.


chris G<------knows stuff
 
I think that using Titlist, or any other full splice, as an example isn't the same as using a short splice made by someone else.

I also think that using Bushka, Boti, Ernie, and any of the other forefathers of cue making as examples of assemblers isn't the same as what is considered an assembler today. Which do you think is worth more(not that it matters but..)....a Gus with a Spain splice or a Gus with a Gus splice?

Guys today can buy a book, a DVD, get on the internet, buy an all-in-one machine, a few Prather blanks, and PRESTO! A cue maker is born.

Maybe I'm a little sensitive and just need a hug.....
 
Well, Ryan, here's a hug from me buddy.:smile:

I feel the same way, although it could be argued that I am one of those guys who bought a video (because I did, several in fact) but not an all-in-one machine...

I did my first cue the 'hard way' with nothing more than desire and Burton's book in hand about 10 years ago now (maybe more?). Does that make me better? Hell no. I'm just saying that I have only been at this a short time but with the experience I do have, can now better detect and appreciate the differences in construction methods, and, to the original point, ethics of a cue maker, regardless of when they started making cues.

Ryan, you seem to me to have your heart in the right place. I have noticed the lack of comments from several makers on this forum. Probably because they feel this is beneath them, and for all intents and purposes, it should be up to the purchaser and cue maker and not be a "let's see who we can slam" fest. Regardless of what is said on this forum, people will continue to do things the way they do them. Either they truly believe they are right, or they simply do not care. No one else has the right to dictate how someone should do and/or run their business. "If you don't have something nice to say, keep quiet." And "If you don't like that makers ethics, take your business elsewhere." There are a ton of hungry cue makers who pour their heart into their work and get little to no credit for it. Just cast your vote with your wallet!

I just recently got a new pair of shafts from a hall-of-fame cue maker and the work was frankly second rate. The stitch rings did not match the original ones (butt was provided for match up but spacing of the stitches was totally different) and the threads in the shaft insert were very loose and sloppy. The end faces of the shafts were not very clean either- gaps between the phenolic collar and the wood core... Not what you would expect from a hall-of-fame cue maker at all... Now, the wood I specified was used, and the shafts play fantastic, which is most important of course. I just felt like I had been taken for a ride on that one.:rolleyes:

The point is: no one is immune to the allure of 'easy money'. Cue making is NOT just buying some parts and gluing it together in your garage. I think there was an older post where someone suggested this and Tony Zinzola sent that person materials and after a year, no cue... We have to assume that person ate a double-whopper-with-cheese size helping of humble pie. Even when all the 'hard' work is done for you, there is still a long way to go to get a good cue.

I dealt with this a lot when I made custom guitars actually. I had parts made for me (to my specification) by Warmoth in Washington for bolt-on-neck designs (Fender-type stuff). I had no issue with telling my customers this, and some bought body and neck blanks on their own. I even sold them pickups and other hardware at a discounted rate. THEN, once they realized that building a guitar (even from pre-made parts) is no walk in the park, I ended up charging them more than if I had just did the entire job myself to make it playable for them. So, I have a perspective on this that most do not have...:wink:
 
If anyone knows of cue makers who use others blanks, forearms, etc., without disclosing the fact, please spill the beans. I am sure many of us would be interested in that info. I have spent thousands of dollars for a cue (as have other AZ members) and if I found out the maker used other makers work without disclosing that fact, I would be a bit miffed. To me this is theft by omission.
So does anyone out there have the balls to out these assemblers?

Thanking you in advance,
Glen
 
bogey54311 said:
ummmmmm, you couldn't be more wrong.


chris G<----100% sure there are some, and knows who they are
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so spill the beans if you know it all. we'd all love to hear.... btw ive already heard these stories and you sir are 100% wrong...


bogey54311 said:
Well, have you gotten $1000+ for one of your 4 point, 4 veneer cues?
Cause I know where you bought your blanks.

Oh the irony.


chris G<------knows stuff
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chris. you think you know stuff but you dont. i know what your implying and trust me you have no clue.

no i have never sold a cue for 1000$. esp one with a blank i didnt make. so tell me how much you know

btw the # is 3 i bought 2 blanks from jerry rauenzahn a few years ago. one i still have and will not sell. the other was traded in full disclosure. if im not mistaken i contacted you and told you i made the cue with jerrys forearm and you were misrepresenting it.... remember? i do. i recieved a 3rd from jerry that was given to me bc he got a huge order bc of me. that was his gift to me. that blank was sent back to jerry for him to finish up for me....

so what is it exactly that you know?
 
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ShootingArts said:
Roger,

Seems to me that since assembly is so easy and the components so easy to locate that anyone that pays more than a hundred over component price for a typical cue must be a dummy. They can stick it together themselves in their garage!

Everybody can cut bondo and spray paint too but I had a six month waiting list at my shop for years. I didn't make anything, I didn't design anything, and there were shops all around me that worked far cheaper begging for business. All I did was put parts together the way they were supposed to be put together and spray a little paint over them. Surely there wasn't anything special about my shop.

I wonder why people waited six months or more and then paid me quite a bit more money to use exactly the same components most other shops used?

Hu
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Hu,

I had to read your post two or three times before I could see that you are not disagreeing with me. As usual, you are one insightful man.

Also, I intend to introduce a new cue line later this year that will not use points or inlays, but will feature some design work in the forearms that I will need to have done by someone other than myself. Now will that mean I am not a true cue maker? :wink:

Roger
 
it just occured to me that if some of these folks spent half the time learning to build there own fronts as they do on az then they might be famous!
 
LGSM3 said:
it just occured to me that if some of these folks spent half the time learning to build there own fronts as they do on az then they might be famous!
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I multitask and do both. I also act like I'm famous.
 
Roger Long said:
Hu,

I had to read your post two or three times before I could see that you are not disagreeing with me. As usual, you are one insightful man.

Also, I intend to introduce a new cue line later this year that will not use points or inlays, but will feature some design work in the forearms that I will need to have done by someone other than myself. Now will that mean I am not a true cue maker? :wink:

Roger
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Also, I intend to introduce a new cue line later this year that will not use points or inlays, but will feature some design work in the forearms that I will need to have done by someone other than myself. Now will that mean I am not a true cue maker? :wink:


Whether your a cue maker or not is up to you in my opinion, however, when these cues are made they should be represented for they are, that way no can accuse you of being deceptive. I think everyone involved in building a cue should be represented when it is sold within reason, I don't think you have to tell people where you purchased your materials like, wood, bumpers, pins and finish. However, if some else is involved in the construction, building the forearms, inlays, partial assemble, or finishing then that should be disclosed.

Rodger if you disagree that's fine, we all have the right to do what we want to do the way we want to do. However, today like some one else said buyers are becoming more educated do to the INTERNET, so sooner or later non-disclosure may come back to haunt you.

JIMO
 
LGSM3 said:
it just occured to me that if some of these folks spent half the time learning to build there own fronts as they do on az then they might be famous!
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I shopped at a Famous and Bar last night, does that count!!!!!!:smile:
 
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