Cuemaker ethics - what do you really make?

[Roger Long]

he happened to get the 1 cue i made with someone elses blank he sold it as a jerry rauenzahn cue. i dont know if he didnt tell the buyer but i will find out....

Dave,

Your report on this instance brings another question to mind. In instances such as this, could it be that the original buyer of a cue who wants to know if the blank was provided by someone other than the guy whose name is on that cue, might want that information in case it will enhance the resale value of that cue? For example: if I buy an investment cue from maker "A" but then find out that the forearm was built by maker "B" and maker "B" is more famous than maker "A", then I'm going to want to tell everybody that I own a "B" cue. And then if I put that cue up for resale, telling potential buyers it is a "B" cue, shouldn't MY ethics be brought to question?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to look at this whole "ethics" question from a different perspective.

Roger

 

[dave sutton]

Yes. 100% wrong to sell a cue as maker B. As I said in another post simple gluing in points doesn't make the cue. Construction and taper matter a great deal. and change from maker to maker. In this instance however the construction is the same as jerrys. He tought me a great deal about cuemaking. I did that cue a long time ago. I do things much differently now. I don't mean construction wise. Just in general

 

[mia]

Much of this debate amounts to little more than moots points, or at least, seperate debates. Value of the cue... value of the cuemaker names attached to it... it doesn't matter. The question is, is it deceptive for a cuemaker to not disclose information like 'a big chunk of the aesthetic of this cue were done by someone else'.

Ross made specific reference to 'pointed cues or inlaid buttsleeve'. Not something as minor as 'who supplied his veneer stock' or 'did he machine the pin himself or buy it from someone else'. The truth is, if I ordered a cue from a cuemaker, its because I wanted HIS work. HIS points. HIS inlays. Not someone else's. And, in plain truth, if the cuemaker told me ahead of time 'hey! That's not my forte so I may outsource some of the work' my opinion might change. I may be ok with that. But if he chooses not to and then pawns the cue off as one of HIS, that's just plain deceptive.

Sure, I'd bet it happens a lot more than most people know. Does that make it acceptible? No. It actually makes it worse. But regardless, pointwork and inlays are a HUGE part of the aesthetics of a cue. As far as points go (and the AMOUNT of inlay work), they can be the primary focal point of a cue. And if the cuemaker contracted to 'create' the cue in question actually has someone else do the work for him, then why am I giving him money in the first place?!? I mean, he CAN'T do the work. And even if he could, he DIDN'T. Essentially, he took the work of another person, put his name on it, called it a _____ Custom Cue, and marked the price up. How can that be right at all??

 

[ShootingArts]

seems simple doesn't it?

A cue builder buys an oversized full splice blank. As often is the case, the points are well glued but uneven. With his expertise he takes an offset turn on the blank to bring the points back to center. His turning and his sanding determine how true and even the points are and how clean the lines are. Then he has to true the joint face and the end of the butt. Now he has reworked every surface of the blank. Then he adds his inlays, rings, wrap, pins, determines the balance, and applies the finish.

Who built this cue?

Hu

Much of this debate amounts to little more than moots points, or at least, seperate debates. Value of the cue... value of the cuemaker names attached to it... it doesn't matter. The question is, is it deceptive for a cuemaker to not disclose information like 'a big chunk of the aesthetic of this cue were done by someone else'.

Ross made specific reference to 'pointed cues or inlaid buttsleeve'. Not something as minor as 'who supplied his veneer stock' or 'did he machine the pin himself or buy it from someone else'. The truth is, if I ordered a cue from a cuemaker, its because I wanted HIS work. HIS points. HIS inlays. Not someone else's. And, in plain truth, if the cuemaker told me ahead of time 'hey! That's not my forte so I may outsource some of the work' my opinion might change. I may be ok with that. But if he chooses not to and then pawns the cue off as one of HIS, that's just plain deceptive.

Sure, I'd bet it happens a lot more than most people know. Does that make it acceptible? No. It actually makes it worse. But regardless, pointwork and inlays are a HUGE part of the aesthetics of a cue. As far as points go (and the AMOUNT of inlay work), they can be the primary focal point of a cue. And if the cuemaker contracted to 'create' the cue in question actually has someone else do the work for him, then why am I giving him money in the first place?!? I mean, he CAN'T do the work. And even if he could, he DIDN'T. Essentially, he took the work of another person, put his name on it, called it a _____ Custom Cue, and marked the price up. How can that be right at all??

 

[ftgokie]

I talked to a higher end cuemaker about his cues. He has 2-3 people in his shop that also build his cues. He has told me that sometimes he doesnt even put his hand on any cues that have his name on them. Now mind you, he will stand behind his cues whether he touches them or not.

So if your buying one of his cues and he didnt even make it, how would you feel about that? I know I personally dont like it. But the fact of the matter is, his cues go out his shop with his name on them, and he didnt have anything to do with any part of that cue.

The cues that he doesnt make look and play really nice, but they arent made by him, thats what gets me.

 

[Craig Fales]

A cue builder buys an oversized full splice blank. As often is the case, the points are well glued but uneven. With his expertise he takes an offset turn on the blank to bring the points back to center. His turning and his sanding determine how true and even the points are and how clean the lines are. Then he has to true the joint face and the end of the butt. Now he has reworked every surface of the blank. Then he adds his inlays, rings, wrap, pins, determines the balance, and applies the finish.

Who built this cue?

Hu

I would use my name on a cue like this. But declare that the blank came from elsewhere. You'd basically be doing the labor on this cue unless you add inlays. They would be unique, so to speak, to you only.

 

[ftgokie]

Huh? What are you talking? Aggressive? That's the whole reason I started making cues! I wanted to argue on here everyday with people I don't even know and insult them till I'm blue in the face by showing them how much I know and how wrong the other guy's point is.

I live for it everyday man. As a matter of fact, I can't wait to get out of bed in the morning and read what someone typed about me just so I can think of a clever comeback that is totally beside the original point. Taking offense to something and proving just how right I am is the true essence of AZ. Didn't you know? Don't know why you have to play the innocent nice guy. Take your panties off jump in this orgy-fest of roller derby here on AZ! You might like it!:wink:

P.S. The most fun thing is to say something that might be inaccurate, but what the hell, I'll take a crap shoot just to insult the guy because he may sound like a cocky know-it-all to me, just to put him in his place. Then, when my bluff is called, I disappear and pretend to take the high road cause, 'whew!' I coulda really been embarrassed about that one!

Basically what it comes down to, is, we are all still in the 3rd Grade.

Sung, I know who your talking about :grin:

 

[mia]

A cue builder buys an oversized full splice blank. As often is the case, the points are well glued but uneven. With his expertise he takes an offset turn on the blank to bring the points back to center. His turning and his sanding determine how true and even the points are and how clean the lines are. Then he has to true the joint face and the end of the butt. Now he has reworked every surface of the blank. Then he adds his inlays, rings, wrap, pins, determines the balance, and applies the finish.

Who built this cue?

Hu

It would be a ______ Cue made from a Davis/Prather/whomever blank. And you better believe that info would be disclosed. Not every cuemaker out there can do fullsplice. The majortiy do not. So if I order a fullsplice cue from someone that I'm pretty certain DOES this work, I'd expect it to be his blank. If it isn't, I'd want to know BEFORE I paid for it... BEFORE he did the work.

Now if the cuemakers doesn't do fullsplice work, then I would expect he tell me outright, in which case it would allow me to approve the source of the blank or take my order elsewhere.

 

[xianmacx]

my point is not exactly to get a name. my point was he came on here implying i was doing something wrong. he happened to get the 1 cue i made with someone elses blank he sold it as a jerry rauenzahn cue. i contacted him and told him jerry didnt make the cue i did. the cue was a throw in cue on a trade for other bigger cues and was fully disclosed. its the only cue i have out there with a blank i didnt make. so either he sold the cue as a jerry knowing i made it or didnt he didnt do anything about it after i told him

edit: without erasing anything i want to say i dont know if he didnt tell the buyer but i will find out....

here is the cue. matt_24 got it. i told him contact the buyer
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=83102&highlight=rauenzahn


so... heres my point. if he thinks he knows so much about me... makes me wonder what he thinks he knows about others

sorry but im aiming twards not much...

Dave, you built that ebony cue with the Delrin buttcap?? Thats a hell of a nice looking cue.

 

[ShootingArts]

but does the third owner know that?

I would use my name on a cue like this. But declare that the blank came from elsewhere. You'd basically be doing the labor on this cue unless you add inlays. They would be unique, so to speak, to you only.

Craig,

Will the third owner know the cue is built on somebody else's blank? Shouldn't the cue be permanently marked indicating the blank is somebody else's if it is that important?

I have no problem disclosing if I choose to use a blank but in the case I mentioned above the cue maker had 100% control of the aesthetics which are what some owners seem most concerned with, somebody claiming points that they didn't glue up. Seems to me that the person doing the final turning and sanding is the one that had most to do with the quality of appearance of the points, he can make them or ruin them.

On the other hand, what I am really concerned with is the actual quality of the wood and the glue up in the blank, that is a whole 'nuther issue and the real reason in my opinion that builders should either not buy blanks or be very careful where they buy them. A good builder can often fix the aesthetics, he can't do much about any lack of quality other than aging the blank in his own shop for a few years so he at least knows it isn't likely to walk. Glue voids and cheats done by a shop worker to get blanks out in a hurry, who knows?

Hu

 

[dave sutton]

A cue builder buys an oversized full splice blank. As often is the case, the points are well glued but uneven. With his expertise he takes an offset turn on the blank to bring the points back to center. His turning and his sanding determine how true and even the points are and how clean the lines are. Then he has to true the joint face and the end of the butt. Now he has reworked every surface of the blank. Then he adds his inlays, rings, wrap, pins, determines the balance, and applies the finish.

Who built this cue?

Hu

he hu, here is a sneaky pete im making for jeff pooldawg8. its a real shame i will only get credit for just slapping the rings on this dufferin blank...:wink::wink::wink:

 

[dave sutton]

Dave, you built that ebony cue with the Delrin buttcap?? Thats a hell of a nice looking cue.

i built that cue 4 or 5 years ago. i only had a midsize lathe in a 4'x4' closet.i had to cut the crywall out on both sides to the stud to fit that lathe in the room. super glue finish and my first leather wrap. jerrys forearm. offset tasilstock caveman style. it plays awesome too. i think its in the first 5 cues i ever made. might actually be #3. my first was a titlist that sold on here a few years ago. second was a tulipwood cue for my wife. i still have that. and this cue...

 

[Roger Long]

Much of this debate amounts to little more than moots points, or at least, seperate debates. Value of the cue... value of the cuemaker names attached to it... it doesn't matter. The question is, is it deceptive for a cuemaker to not disclose information like 'a big chunk of the aesthetic of this cue were done by someone else'.

Ross made specific reference to 'pointed cues or inlaid buttsleeve'. Not something as minor as 'who supplied his veneer stock' or 'did he machine the pin himself or buy it from someone else'. The truth is, if I ordered a cue from a cuemaker, its because I wanted HIS work. HIS points. HIS inlays. Not someone else's. And, in plain truth, if the cuemaker told me ahead of time 'hey! That's not my forte so I may outsource some of the work' my opinion might change. I may be ok with that. But if he chooses not to and then pawns the cue off as one of HIS, that's just plain deceptive.

Sure, I'd bet it happens a lot more than most people know. Does that make it acceptible? No. It actually makes it worse. But regardless, pointwork and inlays are a HUGE part of the aesthetics of a cue. As far as points go (and the AMOUNT of inlay work), they can be the primary focal point of a cue. And if the cuemaker contracted to 'create' the cue in question actually has someone else do the work for him, then why am I giving him money in the first place?!? I mean, he CAN'T do the work. And even if he could, he DIDN'T. Essentially, he took the work of another person, put his name on it, called it a _____ Custom Cue, and marked the price up. How can that be right at all??

What if the name in "_____ Custom Cue" is not the name of the individual who owns the business? Let's take the fictitious example that it is the "Fantasmo" Custom Cue company that we are talking about here. Now Fantasmo is a true "custom" cue provider because they will build cues to customers' personal designs and specifications. And because of the quality of work that Fantasmo puts out, they have built a reputation as being a great cue builder. But Fantasmo has four workers involved in the building of every cue, each with their own specific duties to perform. Neither one knows much about the others' jobs, but each has become expert at their own particular job, and all together they put out terrific custom-built cues, each with the name Fantasmo on it. How can that be wrong at all?

Roger

 

[Craig Fales]

Craig,

Will the third owner know the cue is built on somebody else's blank? Shouldn't the cue be permanently marked indicating the blank is somebody else's if it is that important?

I have no problem disclosing if I choose to use a blank but in the case I mentioned above the cue maker had 100% control of the aesthetics which are what some owners seem most concerned with, somebody claiming points that they didn't glue up. Seems to me that the person doing the final turning and sanding is the one that had most to do with the quality of appearance of the points, he can make them or ruin them.

On the other hand, what I am really concerned with is the actual quality of the wood and the glue up in the blank, that is a whole 'nuther issue and the real reason in my opinion that builders should either not buy blanks or be very careful where they buy them. A good builder can often fix the aesthetics, he can't do much about any lack of quality other than aging the blank in his own shop for a few years so he at least knows it isn't likely to walk. Glue voids and cheats done by a shop worker to get blanks out in a hurry, who knows?

Hu

This is why you'd want a quality maker of blanks for your cues. You'd have to rely on the current owners to disclose the fact it's a blank from someone else besides who's name is on it. The ideal situation is to make everything from tip to bumper. Even full splice cues.

 

[ratcues]

I am sooooo changing the name from RAT cues to Fantasmo cues! Love it!

 

[dave sutton]

ratasmo cues......... your alter ego

 

[icon2]

A cue builder buys an oversized full splice blank. As often is the case, the points are well glued but uneven. With his expertise he takes an offset turn on the blank to bring the points back to center. His turning and his sanding determine how true and even the points are and how clean the lines are. Then he has to true the joint face and the end of the butt. Now he has reworked every surface of the blank. Then he adds his inlays, rings, wrap, pins, determines the balance, and applies the finish.

Who built this cue?

Hu

built as stated, and nice example of disclosure

Will the third owner know the cue is built on somebody else's blank? Shouldn't the cue be permanently marked indicating the blank is somebody else's if it is that important?
different subject but good suggestion.
blank makers could help by requiring such, but might feel that it would kill their sales to those that would prefer it not to be disclosed.

I have no problem disclosing if I choose to use a blank but in the case I mentioned above the cue maker had 100% control of the aesthetics which are what some owners seem most concerned with, somebody claiming points that they didn't glue up.
an assumption made by you, having nothing to do with OP's question.
Seems to me that the person doing the final turning and sanding is the one that had most to do with the quality of appearance of the points, he can make them or ruin them.
good point, but little to do with disclosure of blank source.
On the other hand, what I am really concerned with is the actual quality of the wood and the glue up in the blank, that is a whole 'nuther issue and the real reason in my opinion that builders should either not buy blanks or be very careful where they buy them. A good builder can often fix the aesthetics, he can't do much about any lack of quality . . .
very good reason for disclosure of blank source!
other than aging the blank in his own shop for a few years so he at least knows it isn't likely to walk. Glue voids and cheats done by a shop worker to get blanks out in a hurry, who knows?

Hu

nice posts , HU! :thumbup2:

 

[mia]

What if the name in "_____ Custom Cue" is not the name of the individual who owns the business? Let's take the fictitious example that it is the "Fantasmo" Custom Cue company that we are talking about here. Now Fantasmo is a true "custom" cue provider because they will build cues to customers' personal designs and specifications. And because of the quality of work that Fantasmo puts out, they have built a reputation as being a great cue builder. But Fantasmo has four workers involved in the building of every cue, each with their own specific duties to perform. Neither one knows much about the others' jobs, but each has become expert at their own particular job, and all together they put out terrific custom-built cues, each with the name Fantasmo on it. How can that be wrong at all?

Roger

I see where you're going with this. And its a good question. One that is difficult to answer definitively. But I would have to say this...

As a consumer, I don't think anyone SHOULD make a purchase of ANY custom item without knowing something about who makes it, how its made, etc.. Personally, I think its just logical to do a little homework. If you don't, you should have NO expectations and should be surprised by nothing.

That being said ordering a cue from a SHOP and not a cuemaker is another story altogether. Still, its not quite what I'm talking about here. If the cuemaker in question is building cues from parts made by people OUTSIDE his shop and he is PAYING for the parts but selling them with HIS name on them... that just isn't right no matter how you slice it.

If one were to order say, a SouthWest, you should know that you are getting a cue from one of maybe 3 or 4 (maybe all) of the people working in that shop. But there's the hitch! You're buying a South West cue. Not a person's name here Cue.

But suppose I'm buying a cue from a cuemaker that has a relatively unknown apprentice or two working in his shop. If I were to contact said cuemaker to ask HIM to build me a cue, I would expect the cue is being made by his hands. If and apprentice cut the rings for him or even did the wrap, no problem. But if someone other than the man who agreed to build me a cue actually constructed and pieced together most of the cue and it was NOT told to me, then yeah. I'd be a bit upset.

 

[Cue Guru]

I think in general, disclosure is there; at least with full-splice blanks.

When the blank is from Davis, Spain (or on older cues) Spain, Gus et al. it is generally disclosed. One because it can add 'value' and 'aura' to have a connection to these great makers, but also just good business practice.

I can think of some from recent history by Paul Drexler which were made on Spain blanks, and it was (needlessly) stated. I say needlessly, because on that particular cue I am remembering, he exposed the second splice above the wrap, and nobody did it the way Burton did.

My cue that I'm working on is a Davis blank. I have seen Davis blanks with the second splice exposed (no wrap); however mine will be covered. A quick x-ray would probably reveal the second splice, and anyone removing the wrap (in the 'know') would know instantly it was John's work. (other details of the blank/finished cue would tip off someone who knew what they were looking at as well)

Titlist cues are easier to spot, as they always have that certain 'look' of age to them, so those generally don't need an explanation. However, there are some very nice color replicas for those veneer colors, and a piece of Lake Bottom Maple for a forearm and you could dupe someone (although it would be more $$ in material than a real Titlist!)

So, I guess a PFD cue made with a Burton Spain blank pretty much sums it up in this example. Generally, since the current owner usually knows this detail, that description will travel with the cue for many years to come as it passes to the third, fourth etc. owner(s).

BUT, I can see how a lesser known maker might try to pass off a short splice from Prather (or whomever) as his own while trying to make a go of it. Unfortunately, this is the worst time for that- while trying to build a reputation in the early days... It can easily come back to haunt you!

 

[SK Custom Cues]

ssshhhhhh.....:nono:

Sung, I know who your talking about :grin: