Custom Cue Mythology

[ShootingArts]

There is a little thing called tolerances

There is this little thing called tolerances. On a production line every part has to fit the parts around it if they are cut to the extreme worst tolerances. Cutting production line parts for short run industrial components my tolerances run from about .003" to over .010". Every other part that fits to these parts has to be cut to a tolerance that allows the parts to fit together regardless of where in the tolerance the mating part is. This means that one finished unit might have zero clearance between two parts and another one might have .013" in the case of the two parts mentioned above. Each and every piece has to have some tolerance so the more parts that are added together the more tolerances can add together. Tolerance stack is a real issue in almost all production assemblies.

In a custom cue, even if it is the same design as fourteen other cues the custom builder has made, the cue builder hand fits each part. He can ignore production tolerances and basically fit to zero. He can also implement design features that aren't practical on a production line.

One in tens of thousands or less of production cues have all of the tolerances match up to fit everything together perfectly. That cue is indeed as good as any custom assuming quality woods and components were used. I don't like my odds of getting that cue though. If I don't get that perfect production cue it may be made "good enough" but it isn't the same as a cue fit together perfectly and may not stand the test of time even if I am happy with it new.

Top cue builders are worth every dime you pay for their cue knowing it is assembled as perfectly as they know how to assemble a cue. There are people making cues that aren't even as good as most middle and upper end production cues too. Up to the buyer to do their homework and know which they are buying.

Hu

 

[metallicane]

There is this little thing called tolerances. On a production line every part has to fit the parts around it if they are cut to the extreme worst tolerances. Cutting production line parts for short run industrial components my tolerances run from about .003" to over .010". Every other part that fits to these parts has to be cut to a tolerance that allows the parts to fit together regardless of where in the tolerance the mating part is. This means that one finished unit might have zero clearance between two parts and another one might have .013" in the case of the two parts mentioned above. Each and every piece has to have some tolerance so the more parts that are added together the more tolerances can add together. Tolerance stack is a real issue in almost all production assemblies.

In a custom cue, even if it is the same design as fourteen other cues the custom builder has made, the cue builder hand fits each part. He can ignore production tolerances and basically fit to zero. He can also implement design features that aren't practical on a production line.

One in tens of thousands or less of production cues have all of the tolerances match up to fit everything together perfectly. That cue is indeed as good as any custom assuming quality woods and components were used. I don't like my odds of getting that cue though. If I don't get that perfect production cue it may be made "good enough" but it isn't the same as a cue fit together perfectly and may not stand the test of time even if I am happy with it new.

Top cue builders are worth every dime you pay for their cue knowing it is assembled as perfectly as they know how to assemble a cue. There are people making cues that aren't even as good as most middle and upper end production cues too. Up to the buyer to do their homework and know which they are buying.

Hu

Well said Hu.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Yeah yeah, if your fundamentals and knowledge is correct, you should be able to play with anything.

BUT....

Careful there, I never said that either. I said a decent quality production cue. I don't believe in the play with a broomstick line of thinking.

I do believe there exists a basic level of quality necessary to have a cue that plays well. Meaning, consistent from shot to shot.

That level of quality is found in most quality production cues as low as $150 - $400. No need to spend thousands to get that consistency, nor is there a need to have it hand-made either.

I think you are wrong. I do not want or need to know the scientific reasons behind the fact that I don't just THINK I can feel a difference between a production vs. a custom cue, I KNOW I can.

I won't argue with what YOU think. I don't know you or what's in your head. Maybe you know something I don't, but you've stated you cannot articulate it in any kind of material or scientific terms.

However, I believe that there's a good chance you can't tell the difference if put to the test. It would be similar to the blind tests done to determine if people can tell what kind of joint a cue has (wood 2 wood, steel, plastic etcetera) where no one could tell the difference with any degree of certainty. This has been done a few times.

And by the way, you were getting into the fact that you were not talking about durability. Yeah, who cares about that anyways? As long as the cue hits perfectly for a night or two, I won't give a sh*t if it falls apart. I mean, who needs their cue to last a long time anyways?

I never said I didn't care about durability. Your statement is a wild exaggeration. Does a Schon, Viking, Meucci, Predator et al fall apart quickly? They don't. They last decades. Freak breakage excluded. That happens to everyone, including the custom cues.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

There is this little thing called tolerances. On a production line every part has to fit the parts around it if they are cut to the extreme worst tolerances. Cutting production line parts for short run industrial components my tolerances run from about .003" to over .010". Every other part that fits to these parts has to be cut to a tolerance that allows the parts to fit together regardless of where in the tolerance the mating part is. This means that one finished unit might have zero clearance between two parts and another one might have .013" in the case of the two parts mentioned above. Each and every piece has to have some tolerance so the more parts that are added together the more tolerances can add together. Tolerance stack is a real issue in almost all production assemblies.

In a custom cue, even if it is the same design as fourteen other cues the custom builder has made, the cue builder hand fits each part. He can ignore production tolerances and basically fit to zero. He can also implement design features that aren't practical on a production line.

One in tens of thousands or less of production cues have all of the tolerances match up to fit everything together perfectly. That cue is indeed as good as any custom assuming quality woods and components were used. I don't like my odds of getting that cue though. If I don't get that perfect production cue it may be made "good enough" but it isn't the same as a cue fit together perfectly and may not stand the test of time even if I am happy with it new.

Top cue builders are worth every dime you pay for their cue knowing it is assembled as perfectly as they know how to assemble a cue. There are people making cues that aren't even as good as most middle and upper end production cues too. Up to the buyer to do their homework and know which they are buying.

Hu

Cues are not like hand-fitted custom 1911's, or bench rest actions. Where said hand-fitting directly equates to performance gains.

The performance of a cue is all in the shaft. There isn't anything special a custom cue maker has done in the tapering of a shaft and installation of a ferrule to make it perform better. At least not better than a production cue shaft.

 

[greyghost]

OK, then explain to me what is it that the good cue makers are doing in the materials and construction of their cues that makes them play and perform better than a production cue?

Whatever it is that is allegedly creating this superior playability must be recognizable and quantifiable in either methods or materials. Otherwise, we're talking superstition here.

Tolerance, Tapers, Balance, Nodal Point positions are the biggest points that come to mind that greatly affect playability and the performance of a cue.

 

[classiccues]

OK.. Bola.. I'll bite...

Just explain to me one thing...

From 1962 ish through the 70's into the 80's.. guys like Balsis, Crane, Hopkins, Mizerak, Murphy, Lassiter, Moore, Mosconi, Cranefield, Martin on and on and on.. could have been playing with Palmers, Vikings, Adam cues, Rich, etc.. etc.. but they all chose Balabushka, Szamboti, Ginacue, Rambow etc...

Now I will agree that there probably is a ceiling to how much $$$$ is really necessary to spend on playability. After that it's just what that person decides he can afford.

I go back to the car anology.. sure a Hyundai Excell or Chevy Chevette can get you from A-B.. but if you have the money there is nothing wrong with going from A-B in style... How much style is simply up to the individual's finances.

Now I sell cues, customs, and sure I've sold 5k. 6k cues to guys who whould have spent 2k on the cue and 4k getting lessons. But it's not for me to tell them that.

JV (---come see me in Valley Forge.. the ususal booth...

 

[greyghost]

No way bill! .......... Yes way ted!

Cues are not like hand-fitted custom 1911's, or bench rest actions. Where said hand-fitting directly equates to performance gains.

The performance of a cue is all in the shaft. There isn't anything special a custom cue maker has done in the tapering of a shaft and installation of a ferrule to make it perform better. At least not better than a production cue shaft.

Yea and only the tires matter in regards to performance in a car.

ROFLMAO....dam and all this time I never knew DPK, Gus, Tony @Black Boar were all full of bull. I'm going to throw away Daves cue building manuel too, is there any way you could write one up to replace it?

I'm all ears my master,
Grey Ghost

 

[Mitchorama]

"Larry" at the pool hall could beat many of players with a broomstick! When I was drinking I used to take the crooked stick and play all night with it. Two important parts of a cue stick is the weight and the tip, just my two cents.

 

[alstl]

If you are saying things like weight, balance point, shaft taper and tip don't make a difference then I disagree. If you are saying the right combination of those things can be found in a production cue, I agree.

Earl just switched to Meucci but he doesn't play with a standard Meucci shaft, he had one built to his specifications. SVB took Earl's sponsorship from Cuetec and had them build a cue as close as possible to the specifications he liked. Schmidt is switching to a new cue and sent them his list of specifications.

Go up to the finalists in a major tournament and try to take their cue away and get them to play with a random production cue. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[ShootingArts]

I have put together all three

Cues are not like hand-fitted custom 1911's, or bench rest actions. Where said hand-fitting directly equates to performance gains.

The performance of a cue is all in the shaft. There isn't anything special a custom cue maker has done in the tapering of a shaft and installation of a ferrule to make it perform better. At least not better than a production cue shaft.

I have built record setting and match winning 1911's. I have assembled a benchrest rifle that bettered the world record for five 5 shot groups considerably under official conditions but not where a record could be set. I have also built many a shaft and seen the guts of damaged production shafts including some of the higher end ones. First, you are mistaken that all shafts are equal. The complete creation of a shaft from end to end and start to finish matters. Second you are mistaken that all that matters is the shaft. When you start with these false assumptions you will of course reach false conclusions.

In addition to tolerances, there is the quality of materials and the time constraints of building production cues. This is a link to a Falcon being built from the looks of things. This is far from a true production line which increases the possibility of quality in the hand steps but note that the components are machine cut and taken from parts bins, the butts and collars have to have enough tolerance that every collar has to fit every butt just as one example. Then look at how the inlays go in. There is more filler than ebony being used. There is a good bit more to making a cue than what this short video shows but when shortcuts are taken some places we can be pretty sure they are taken other places too as well as it simply being the nature of the beast with production lines. You can't turn out hundreds of cues a day with the same standards as turning out a few a week or less.

Hu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUbpn7WZYA&feature=related

 

[Grilled Cheese]

OK.. Bola.. I'll bite...

Just explain to me one thing...

From 1962 ish through the 70's into the 80's.. guys like Balsis, Crane, Hopkins, Mizerak, Murphy, Lassiter, Moore, Mosconi, Cranefield, Martin on and on and on.. could have been playing with Palmers, Vikings, Adam cues, Rich, etc.. etc.. but they all chose Balabushka, Szamboti, Ginacue, Rambow etc...

Now I will agree that there probably is a ceiling to how much $$$$ is really necessary to spend on playability. After that it's just what that person decides he can afford.

I go back to the car anology.. sure a Hyundai Excell or Chevy Chevette can get you from A-B.. but if you have the money there is nothing wrong with going from A-B in style... How much style is simply up to the individual's finances.

Now I sell cues, customs, and sure I've sold 5k. 6k cues to guys who whould have spent 2k on the cue and 4k getting lessons. But it's not for me to tell them that.

JV (---come see me in Valley Forge.. the ususal booth...

That's a good question. It probably has a lot to do with the same reason that at one time to get an example of proper playability, one had to get a handmade because the technology and machinery to achieve consistency via mass production means wasn't there at the time. This applies to cues, musical instruments, firearms etcetera. The simpler the construction, the easier it is for technology in mass production to achieve a consistent result. Here's an example. 50 years ago it was uncommon if not impossible to buy a mass produced rifle that could shoot 1/2" groupings at 100 yards. You had to get a custom. Today, you can buy an off the shelf rifle that will do that. One that is mass produced. Why? Because the machinery that machines parts is better today. More accurate.

How complex is a shaft in comparison to a violin or a firearm? No where near as complex. As a result, it's easier for engineers to use modern machinery to produce a consistent product of a high quality.

But it all depends on what you consider to be a baseline for adequate performance.

With musical instruments it's about the sound. This can be tested, and is tested with electronic equipment (check out the tests done to see if the sound of a Stradivarius is really that much better, the best ears in the music world couldn't tell the difference in a blind test) With firearms, it's the accuracy or reliability. Also can be put to the test, quite easily. With cues, it's subjective...

Unless of course we put a cue into a mechanical device that swings it the same way every time to see if the production cue hits the cue ball straight every time vs. a custom cue. Or if one imparts more spin than the other. People have done this test.

The custom doesn't hit straighter or put more spin.


Consider this angle, since you want to bring up what the Pro's use. Today, do the all Pro's use custom cues? They don't. Most don't.


Had some custom cue maker built a cue that truly performed better - would there not be a mad rush by the professional pool playing world to buy those cues? Think about it. These are people who make their money playing pool, whether it be gambling or tournaments. They want to gain ANY edge they can possibly get - and they will pay for that edge even if it's expensive. They would be at the forefront to seeking out enhanced performance cues.

The production guys would also want to get their hands on the custom cue with better performance. So that they could dissect it and reverse engineer it. To copy it and then offer it. The industry would be ALL over it wanting a piece of that pie. That performance gain would have to be due to something, and that cue maker would then have something they could actually take to a PATENT office. But do they? They don't. They have a maple shaft with a ferrule made of one of a dozen common materials used in cues. Nothing special.

But that isn't the case. None of that is happening.


I think it is telling that the amateur world is far more convinced about the superior performance of custom cues than is the professional pool playing world. Odd that the bangers would know that a cue plays better more so than most Pros.


In Mosconi's days it was different. If you wanted a decent cue, you had to get a custom. Today is different.

 

[barryc]

Custom Cues

I don't usually post here but in this case I'll make an exception. This isn't based on opinion but actual testing. In my collection I have several Bob Rundes, Tim Scruggs, Schons, Richard Blacks, etc. Anyway, I'm sure you get the point. I can tell you that there is absolutely no guarantee that a custom cue assures playability. I can make as many balls with a used Schon as I can with my most expensive custom cue. Even amoung the same custom maker there is a wide range of hit and playability. Simply put, some cues play well and some do not. When some of my friends who are excellent players play with them they generally agree. Most of the best players in the area play with an inexpensive cue (compared to customs), purchased "off the shelf" I am not talking about low end junk but moderately priced cues like Joss, Falcon, Predator, Muecci, Schon, etc. The idea that buying a custom is a guarante your game will improve significantly is simple not based in fact. I've had well know cue makers tell me that after a price point, which is well less than a good production cue, there is nothing they can do to assure a playability. Having said all that, I play with a Murrell or a Runde. I have no illusions that it makes me a better player. The simple fact is that I enjoy using them, enjoy the workmanship, and it makes playing more fun. As the old saying goes, "you don't need a Rolex to know what time it is." However, people still buy Rolexes.
barryc

 

[TSW]

There's nothing special about custom cues when it comes to playability.

....

When you put a new cue in your hands and then play great initially with it, you're experiencing what is known as the Placebo Effect. You think the cue is making you play better when it's really all in your head.

However, this effect predictably and eventually wears off. At which point the individual searches out the next great magic cue that will take them to the next level. Hence, the never ending search for the Excalibur cue that will make their game great.

A step toward improving one's game is to unsubscribe from such equipment based thinking and focus on the true source of one's game - themselves. That whole line of thinking is a major burden to carry around in your development as a player. It's unnecessary and harmful baggage.

You're right as a general point, but your statements are overbroad. Cue-making technology has advanced to the point where a well-made production cue can play really solidly.

Looking for an "Excalibur" cue is a new players' myth. I doubt you'll find anyone who believes that after playing for a while. I look for cues that have that super-sweet "hit" not because I think I'll become a world-beater, but because playing the game is more enjoyable with a great-hitting cue. And in my experience the best-hitting cues are customs. Maybe that's because I haven't tried dozens of the same production cue to find the best-hitting one, but so be it.

I don't want to speak for everyone, but here are some of the reasons I prefer custom cues:

1) I like knowing that my cue is unique. Even if there are dozens of ones very similar to it (and in the case of sneaky petes or plain janes, many other ones are virtually identical), I know that a master craftsman put time and energy into this particular cue. I like that and I trust the results.

2) I assume that the good custom makers don't let bad products leave their shop. That means they spend more time selecting wood, aging wood, treating wood, etc. And you have an experienced cuemaker looking over your cue before it leaves the shop.

3) If you ever have any problems with a custom cue, I believe that the cuemaker will take care of you better than a production company. I like knowing that you can speak to the actual person who made your cue, and that person will know and remember your cue (in theory) if you need any work done on it.

4) Custom cues are pretty. They're functional works of art.

5) Custom cues tend to hold their resale value better, which also implies that other people like custom cues as well. I like knowing that I can buy a cue and re-sell it in a month or a year or 5 years without losing much, if any, money.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I don't usually post here but in this case I'll make an exception. This isn't based on opinion but actual testing. In my collection I have several Bob Rundes, Tim Scruggs, Schons, Richard Blacks, etc. Anyway, I'm sure you get the point. I can tell you that there is absolutely no guarantee that a custom cue assures playability. I can make as many balls with a used Schon as I can with my most expensive custom cue. Even amoung the same custom maker there is a wide range of hit and playability. Simply put, some cues play well and some do not. When some of my friends who are excellent players play with them they generally agree. Most of the best players in the area play with an inexpensive cue (compared to customs), purchased "off the shelf" I am not talking about low end junk but moderately priced cues like Joss, Falcon, Predator, Muecci, Schon, etc. The idea that buying a custom is a guarante your game will improve significantly is simple not based in fact. I've had well know cue makers tell me that after a price point, which is well less than a good production cue, there is nothing they can do to assure a playability. Having said all that, I play with a Murrell or a Runde. I have no illusions that it makes me a better player. The simple fact is that I enjoy using them, enjoy the workmanship, and it makes playing more fun. As the old saying goes, "you don't need a Rolex to know what time it is." However, people still buy Rolexes.
barryc

A voice in the wilderness. Well said, Barry.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I have built record setting and match winning 1911's. I have assembled a benchrest rifle that bettered the world record for five 5 shot groups considerably under official conditions but not where a record could be set. I have also built many a shaft and seen the guts of damaged production shafts including some of the higher end ones. First, you are mistaken that all shafts are equal. The complete creation of a shaft from end to end and start to finish matters. Second you are mistaken that all that matters is the shaft. When you start with these false assumptions you will of course reach false conclusions.

In addition to tolerances, there is the quality of materials and the time constraints of building production cues. This is a link to a Falcon being built from the looks of things. This is far from a true production line which increases the possibility of quality in the hand steps but note that the components are machine cut and taken from parts bins, the butts and collars have to have enough tolerance that every collar has to fit every butt just as one example. Then look at how the inlays go in. There is more filler than ebony being used. There is a good bit more to making a cue than what this short video shows but when shortcuts are taken some places we can be pretty sure they are taken other places too as well as it simply being the nature of the beast with production lines. You can't turn out hundreds of cues a day with the same standards as turning out a few a week or less.

Hu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adUbpn7WZYA&feature=related

Unfortunately, you cannot prove that the custom made shaft:

1. Hits balls straighter (than a quality production)

2. Imparts more spin on CB (than a quality production)

3. Plays more consistent. (than a quality production)

Why did I chose that criteria? Because these are things players typically consider to be desirable qualities.

I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just trying to get down to the meat of the matter. This is apparently a taboo subject for many here.


I will agree that a custom cue can be made more durable. No doubt about it. I seen crappy production cue inlays that pop, swell, crack etcetera. I seen poor quality butts or assembly of butts.

Of course, I'm talking about quality production cues - not garbage. But even then, yes the custom is still made better and more durable because of the tolerance of the various components of the cue and how they are fitted to one another. I understand this completely. But the quality production cue is durable enough. This has to do with the question, how much is enough? I don't pry tree stumps out of the ground with my cue. And if it had that ability due to superior durability, that wouldn't help me or my game one bit whatsoever.

A cue needs to be strong enough to survive normal playing conditions for years and years. That's it as far as durability.

 

[spktur]

Keep in mind he probably plays with a Meucci.

 

[cswann1]

Lots of good stuff here.

And to throw my own brand of kerosene on the fire.....

.....Customs are preferred by many advanced players for the reasons stated here. You can have a cue built the way you want it. But it does take a seasoned player who's had a lot of lumber in his or her hands to know what it is that they like and works best for them.

And that is not to say that sometimes the cue that a player wants can't come from a production company/shop.

And on tolerances...I agree that most of your production cues aren't as tight on tolerances as a good cue builder. However there are some "production" cues that will embarrass many builders. Schon for example is a brand that is known for building cues that are as well made as you are likely to find anywhere in the world. Also, they do a few tricks that make them unique as far as construction. So you don't like a 13mm shaft? You can have a shaft re-worked for about the price of a night at the pool hall (table-time and beverages) or less if you're tight with a cue tech/builder.

So, anyone with a run-of-the-mill "Brand-X" cue can, in fact, turn it into a pseudo-custom cue for next-to-nothing.

I like to use Jerry Olivier and McDermott as a good example on the production/custom debate. They are both 3/8 x 10 pin wood to wood jointed cues (on most McDermott models) and you can interchange shafts (unless you have a JO with a G10 pin). Jerry is a very respected builder and I can tell you from first hand experience that his cues are spectacular in performance, construction and aesthetics. But given a Mc-D and and Olivier with the same tip and shaft taper, in a double-blind comparison between 10 skilled players, I doubt that the differences between the two cues would be obvious to the subjects. I often refer to McDermott as the "poor-mans Olivier".

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Remember to, that 8% of all Professional pool players use a Schon. That's a respectable number.

 

[Buster8001]

Keep in mind he probably plays with a Meucci.

Be easy, trigger.

Tell that to Buddy Hall or Earl Strickland or any other champion in the late 70s - 80s.

Josh

 

[alstl]

I don't usually post here but in this case I'll make an exception. This isn't based on opinion but actual testing. In my collection I have several Bob Rundes, Tim Scruggs, Schons, Richard Blacks, etc. Anyway, I'm sure you get the point. I can tell you that there is absolutely no guarantee that a custom cue assures playability. I can make as many balls with a used Schon as I can with my most expensive custom cue. Even amoung the same custom maker there is a wide range of hit and playability. Simply put, some cues play well and some do not. When some of my friends who are excellent players play with them they generally agree. Most of the best players in the area play with an inexpensive cue (compared to customs), purchased "off the shelf" I am not talking about low end junk but moderately priced cues like Joss, Falcon, Predator, Muecci, Schon, etc. The idea that buying a custom is a guarante your game will improve significantly is simple not based in fact. I've had well know cue makers tell me that after a price point, which is well less than a good production cue, there is nothing they can do to assure a playability. Having said all that, I play with a Murrell or a Runde. I have no illusions that it makes me a better player. The simple fact is that I enjoy using them, enjoy the workmanship, and it makes playing more fun. As the old saying goes, "you don't need a Rolex to know what time it is." However, people still buy Rolexes.
barryc

I understand what you are saying, a custom cue doesn't guarantee playability. Having agreed with that, I'll ask you this:

If you were playing a match for $100,000 dollars and you had your choice of playing with a cue you had never hit a ball with before, one a Scruggs and the other a Chinese Wal-mart special, which would you play with?

I guess my point is your odds are better that a custom cue will be better than an off brand production cue.

There are also different levels of custom cues and production cues. I play with an old Schon SL-5. Many people think Schon has more exacting standards than other production cues. There are custom cuemakers who can't get the points to line up straight.