How do you play this shot?

The thin kick doesn't look like it can happen as diagrammed. Imagine shooting the CB directly from the contact point shown on the foot rail. How thin would you have to hit the 8 to cut it backwards back into the foot rail? The answer is pretty-frigging-thin. Maybe with loaded outside spin to help it. Without helping spin, it looks like even a thin hit will bank the 8 straight sideways (parallel to the foot rail).

My second thought was to send the 8 that way but try to use just the right speed so that the 9 gets in the way. But that's a sucker bet. You can't control a thin kick speed like that and you'll sell out an easy, almost routine cut if you roll either ball 4 inches less or more than intended.

The more I look at it, the more I realize that both in casual play and the US Open I'm kicking it in. You have to assume any us open finalist is like the ghost... if you let him shoot, you lost. If I have even a 50% chance of making that ball and winning it all, I'm going for it.

But, just thinking out loud, can this safe be played?
Note the heavy left spin needed to get the CB to run downhill. Would make aiming the kick that much harder.

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nathandumoulin said:
I don't agree.

If you hit the 8 too thin, you sell out.
If you miss the 8 completely trying to hit it thin, you sell out.
If you hit it too thick, you double kiss and sell out.

At least with the 2 rail version, if you screw it up, you just leave a tough bank or a VERY long tough cut downtable.

Plus as Jude said, you can't get the 8ball to cut back to the lower cushion. It's impossible at that speed and angle.
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I agree but Its 2 rails here for me and I'm trying to kick ob up table to the middle and near the rail, leaving cb near the 9 ball. But on big pockets i'm going for the win with a little pump in my stroke.
 
I've been watching this thread for a couple of days and have been waiting to see more suggestions before making my suggestion.

The three best here since there are not really too many options from this position would be the kick shot to pocket the eight along with Tates suggestion and the one by TXsouthpaw. All three have a fair amount of risk involved.

With the kick shot you make it you win, you miss you lose, cut and dry.

With Tates attempt you have to make sure that you hit the eight ball thin to avoid the kiss. With southpaws shot you also have to hit the eight thin to make sure that the eight gets to the rail and in doing so I can't see the cue ball getting behind the nine. This will probably leave an offensive shot for your opponent even if done correctly.

With Tates shot if done correctly there will be some separation between the two ball and possibly a hook with the nine ball. Even without the hook the chances of leaving and offensive shot are slimmer.

If I wanted to insure that I would get back up to the table my choice would be to roll the cue ball off the short rail up to the eight and leave them both tied up. The chance of them lining up to an offensive shot would be very slim. No matter what he does from here it can't be any worse than what I got now. So now I'm putting the decision in his court to come up with a safe and with a chance of making a mistake.
 
Nobody else is going for the simple half-ball kick-safe?

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Call me crazy, but this is my shot. Even when I sell out, the other guy's on the hook for a very long tough 8-ball.

-Andrew
 
I agree with Niel.You have to kick and make this ball, if you are ever going to be any kind of player thats what you have to do. Open or cheap sets. That being said, I believe the two rail kick is the best safe. The one rail thin hit on the 8 is, to me, an even harder kick than just trying to kick the ball in. The two railer has two chances for success. If you hit it short you can get the one rail half ball hit that andrew manning posted and get safe. If you do go two rails then you get it the other way. Largest margin of error here. Speed is important too.

All that been said, I am making that 8 ball and getting out.

No offense to anybody, but I would love to gamble with about half of the guys who posted on here. I need the 8 from Niel though, lol.
 
Just to keep the conversation going how bout this one?

If you can hit the 8 full in the face with some follow and youve got the table clocked its not a bad option.It just depends on how the 8 is laying of course. Youve gotta hit it perfect though so as not to sell out.


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Jude Rosenstock said:
I think if the kick angle were more shallow (like the diagram below), I would be more apt to kick this way.

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Jude, with the balls set as you have diagrammed that makes Tates shot much easier and it's a standard conventional shot that comes up pretty regular in one pocket. However with the ball off the rail and so close to the pocket I'm kicking it in one rail. But if the nine and ten were reversed then the kick to make the ball is no good.
 
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TXsouthpaw said:
Just to keep the conversation going how bout this one?

If you can hit the 8 full in the face with some follow and youve got the table clocked its not a bad option.It just depends on how the 8 is laying of course. Youve gotta hit it perfect though so as not to sell out.


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The problem with this shot is that you have a significant chance of not hitting a rail after contact. That's a huge gamble.
 
dabarbr said:
I've been watching this thread for a couple of days and have been waiting to see more suggestions before making my suggestion.

The three best here since there are not really too many options from this position would be the kick shot to pocket the eight along with Tates suggestion and the one by TXsouthpaw. All three have a fair amount of risk involved.

With the kick shot you make it you win, you miss you lose, cut and dry.

With Tates attempt you have to make sure that you hit the eight ball thin to avoid the kiss. With southpaws shot you also have to hit the eight thin to make sure that the eight gets to the rail and in doing so I can't see the cue ball getting behind the nine. This will probably leave an offensive shot for your opponent even if done correctly.

With Tates shot if done correctly there will be some separation between the two ball and possibly a hook with the nine ball. Even without the hook the chances of leaving and offensive shot are slimmer.

If I wanted to insure that I would get back up to the table my choice would be to roll the cue ball off the short rail up to the eight and leave them both tied up. The chance of them lining up to an offensive shot would be very slim. No matter what he does from here it can't be any worse than what I got now. So now I'm putting the decision in his court to come up with a safe and with a chance of making a mistake.
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For you guys who don't know it, Frank Almanza (Frank the Barber) was a very successful road player for many years and has played - and beaten - the top players of his day. He has won many tournaments as well and is still highly competitive in any event he enters.

I went back and tried a few shots on a real table after I posted and realized my shot was more difficult than I thought. I was able to pull it off and get the hook quite a bit but it's definitely not a hanger! The hook is natural to the shot if executed properly.

The problem is really on how the 8 is placed - too close to the rail and the double kiss is the issue if you catch the 8 too thick. I am comfortable shooting thin hit safes but a lot of players aren't. I like the fact that the separation is so natural - so you can roll the ball or spin it pretty accurately.

Frank, the shot you suggest, the roll up safe, is a shot I am going to practice some more. Coming from you, I have to believe for the money or the win, this is the shot. I've been resisting them in favor of more difficult plays because if someone leaves me a roll up safe I can usually leave them something pretty nasty right back.

The other shot, the two railer and hide - I think is a tough play myself. You guys have to try it and see if you can do it successfully - I was selling out or giving up ball in hand way too much.

Frank, see you Sunday!

Chris
 
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Andrew Manning said:
Nobody else is going for the simple half-ball kick-safe?
-Andrew
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Sure, a couple of people. What I wanna know (and I meant to test this tonight and forgot) is if you can play my version... left spin to carry whitey towards the foot rail and then maybe under the 9.
 
CreeDo said:
Sure, a couple of people. What I wanna know (and I meant to test this tonight and forgot) is if you can play my version... left spin to carry whitey towards the foot rail and then maybe under the 9.
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I tried your shot it's - definitely doable - you have to hit it soft and hit the 8 thin or it will leave a down table shot.

Chris
 
nathandumoulin said:
The problem with this shot is that you have a significant chance of not hitting a rail after contact. That's a huge gamble.
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I know. I was just throwing it out there. Its a huge risk huge reward situation. If you can freeze the cueball to the 9 though its a game winner.

TATE said:
For you guys who don't know it, Frank Almanza (Frank the Barber) was a very successful road player for many years and has played - and beaten - the top players of his day. He has won many tournaments as well and is still highly competitive in any event he enters.
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I know about frank. So if he says the 2 railer then the 2 railer it is. :smile:
 
I think I'd play the rollup safe. It's easy to execute and probably doesn't give your opponent an easy offensive shot in return.
 
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