Well I will try CTE a little more today, to see if I can get the bugs out, when I say bugs. I think each of use is different the way we see, how we interpet information, and must adapt to our game.
CTE experiment, with civil discussion
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
Here is a little clip where I use CTE on each of Dr. Dave's shots. I did not conscioulsy adjust, in fact I made sure that I was sighting the same way each time. I did not look at contact points, ghost balls or anything but the center of the cueball to the edge of the object ball.
Going down on the shot there is a little pivot or something - let Dave Segal explain it as he has put in the time to learn how to explain it. The point is that the cue stick lands on the right line seemingly automatically. Now perhaps this is because I have used another of Hal's systems for so long that my pivot is automatic. I don't know.
All I know is that for these three shots I am confident that I did the same thing on each of them. If there was any adjustment then it happened completely without my conscious will. To me that's about as close to point and shoot as it gets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8G7-xpyKlk
I will do another video at another time when I have my cameras setup in my shop. By that time I should be able to do more angles and splice in the overhead views and do simulated slow motion I hope.
I shouldn't say this but when I am using this system it feels like magic. It makes me eager to try any shot on the table. I don't feel any trepidation whatsoever.
And when I miss then I instantly know why. I understand what Spidey says about moving your head a little and getting off line. When you step into the shot you have to be absolutely sure that you have lined up the reference points correctly. It's not hard but it is very easy to get cocky and overconfident and start shooting too fast because you start to feel that there is no shot which is too tough.
Those ultra thin cuts you used to pound into the rail. Now you make them more than you miss them and you have such confidence that you can actually play them with whatever speed you need to. Those table length shots that you always dog? No more, now you line up on them like a champion.
People I don't care what you have to do to learn this stuff. Learn it because someday you will face that critical shot and this method will save you.
Maybe it's a pain in the ass to pry it out of Dave Segal, or it's not convenient to pay Stan Shuffet. But like Dave said, all that you need is there if you put in the time.
And yes he can show you how to do it in five minutes. And after that it will take you hours and hours and days and days and weeks and weeks to retrain yourself in the new way, to trust that what feels wrong it right. But the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is an increase in shotmaking ability like you cannot believe.
Coulple that with a steady repeatable and consistent stroke and I guarantee you that your game jumps a couple balls in a very short time.
The system is free and the only cost to you is time.
Going down on the shot there is a little pivot or something - let Dave Segal explain it as he has put in the time to learn how to explain it. The point is that the cue stick lands on the right line seemingly automatically. Now perhaps this is because I have used another of Hal's systems for so long that my pivot is automatic. I don't know.
All I know is that for these three shots I am confident that I did the same thing on each of them. If there was any adjustment then it happened completely without my conscious will. To me that's about as close to point and shoot as it gets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8G7-xpyKlk
I will do another video at another time when I have my cameras setup in my shop. By that time I should be able to do more angles and splice in the overhead views and do simulated slow motion I hope.
I shouldn't say this but when I am using this system it feels like magic. It makes me eager to try any shot on the table. I don't feel any trepidation whatsoever.
And when I miss then I instantly know why. I understand what Spidey says about moving your head a little and getting off line. When you step into the shot you have to be absolutely sure that you have lined up the reference points correctly. It's not hard but it is very easy to get cocky and overconfident and start shooting too fast because you start to feel that there is no shot which is too tough.
Those ultra thin cuts you used to pound into the rail. Now you make them more than you miss them and you have such confidence that you can actually play them with whatever speed you need to. Those table length shots that you always dog? No more, now you line up on them like a champion.
People I don't care what you have to do to learn this stuff. Learn it because someday you will face that critical shot and this method will save you.
Maybe it's a pain in the ass to pry it out of Dave Segal, or it's not convenient to pay Stan Shuffet. But like Dave said, all that you need is there if you put in the time.
And yes he can show you how to do it in five minutes. And after that it will take you hours and hours and days and days and weeks and weeks to retrain yourself in the new way, to trust that what feels wrong it right. But the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is an increase in shotmaking ability like you cannot believe.
Coulple that with a steady repeatable and consistent stroke and I guarantee you that your game jumps a couple balls in a very short time.
The system is free and the only cost to you is time.
1 and 1/8" equals a half-ball pivot
The half-ball pivot is very repeatable. Once a player begins using it, then it's used for every shot. In other words, you're basically using one shot all the time. Imagine how your game can improve if you're only perfecting one technique to handle all shots.
I do not try and teach the movements of the pivot other than by 1 to 1 instruction.
I will refer you to Dave Segal's geometry about CTE that can be found on his blog. That's about as clear as the concept can be made without personal instruction.
Stan
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We keep coming back to this and I thought I knew what you meant by it but I'm starting to doubt that. If possible could you explain this more in the context of how the different perspective allow you to "see" and execute the shot?
What is the Eureka moment where you know you can mechanically go down on a shot, perform your routine and make the shot? Is there conscious adjustment at all stages?
Ghostball, for me anyway, is a visualization intensive routine with visualization from shot conception to the point of pulling the trigger. Can you describe what is going through your mind on a shot? Do you visualize a pivot instead maybe?
I know I'm asking some abstract stuff but you've been a pretty good sport.
Here are a couple of graphs of the CTE pivot distance (from the tip) according to the desired cut angle. The colors lost something in translation, so some description is in order. The middle curve (black) of the five in each plot is the correct pivot distance for the desired cut angle on the bottom axis. The two adjacent curves, one above and one below, each show the pivot distance that would result in a 2 degree error in OB direction (4 deg. total range). The outermost curves show the same for 5 degree errors (10 deg. total range).
The curves were generated according to the description of the method described at Spiderweb's (Dave's) blog. Based on the somewhat complex shape of the curves, it's hard to see how anyone could know the right pivot distance, or get away with using only one or two. Moreover, in the range of about 20 to 40 degree cuts, the pivot location moves beyond the end of the cue, approaching infinity as you near 30 degrees.
As indicated, they are based on a CB-OB separation of 18" between centers.
Jim
The curves were generated according to the description of the method described at Spiderweb's (Dave's) blog. Based on the somewhat complex shape of the curves, it's hard to see how anyone could know the right pivot distance, or get away with using only one or two. Moreover, in the range of about 20 to 40 degree cuts, the pivot location moves beyond the end of the cue, approaching infinity as you near 30 degrees.
As indicated, they are based on a CB-OB separation of 18" between centers.
Jim
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After I submitted this post, the images decided to appear, so all is good now.
Thanks,
Dave
These graphs are assuming the player is strictly following the procedure without any "adjustment." But Spidey and Stan have explained that both the initial alignment and pivot do involve visual perception and subconscious adjustments, so the graphs really don't mean much to a person using CTE effectively. But they do help explain (to math geeks like you and me) why some people might have trouble with CTE if their subconscious adjustments are not very good or consistent.
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
I have one major question. How do you play shape with this system? It's great that you might be able to pocket all these balls with with a center hit after the povit but how do you use this system and play shape for the next shot when one ot two tips of side spin are required?
No matter what "aiming system" you use, you need to adjust your aim when using English. FYI, some methods for doing this can be found here:
These two videos provide a good introduction:
Regards,
Dave
dr_dave,
In diagraming the examples in Acad, I realize why a 2D picture doesn't tell the whole story because of foreshortening (perspctive) - as you get down, the CB appears larger than the OB. When I drew the angular cut examples as a top view the CB and OB were/are the same size.
In CTE, without adjustments, with a 1/2 ball parallel, lateral offset from the cneter of the CB, the cue would be aimed off to the side of the OB and not the same edge of the OB, because it appears smaller, especially if the OB, , is 8 feet away.
On the left of my diagrams, I have attempted to show the relative appearance of the OB @ .75" when viewed behind the CB @2.25".
In my study, I proposed to aim the center of the CB to the contact point on the OB and then lateral, parallel shift the cue to the center of the OB which is a tiny shift when the OB is 4 feet (48 inches in the example) away.
By doing this, the bridge shifts ohhh so slightly and after the pivot to the center of the CB, the CB is directed to the correct ghost ball loction and contact point on the OB.
This has become academic for me and I, having flooded the screen with gigantic jpg.s will now withdraw and just lurk.
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CTE brings you to the desired aiming line but from there you have to adjust for english and what not. I use Pro One for evey shot I take (except kick shots and combos) and there is no problems playing shape. When I first learned the most basic of CTE methods, playing shape was a little difficult due to the strict pivot and the unnatural right to left movement(for myself). However a hip pivot keeps your stoke and your sighting on the same line, Pro One can also accomplish this as well as bring you into the shot the same way for either thick or thin shots. I know how to perform CTE three different ways and Pro One is the easist to incorporate English.
LAMas,
FYI, I just added the following to my CTE resource page:
Thank you for the drawings. It is surprising to me how well your approach seems to do. Good job.
Regards,
Dave
FYI, I just added the following to my CTE resource page:
There are many possible variations on CTE. For example, LAMas has suggested a center-to-contact-point alignment with a shift to the OB center (instead of the CB edge) and pivot back to the CB center (for more info, see his post). This method seems to get close to the right target for a collection of shots, with a fairly consistent pivot length. However, all CTE variations will require changes in alignment and/or effective pivot length as the cut angle and shot distance change.
Thank you for the drawings. It is surprising to me how well your approach seems to do. Good job.
However, everything at the same distance changes by the same proportion due to perspective. So the ghostball is also smaller, right? I still think the 2D drawings tell the whole story. If you take a 2D drawing (e.g., any of my posted diagrams) and distort it to show the perspective effect, I think the conclusions are still the same. Think about it some more, as will I. I'm sorry if I missed your point. Please let me know if I did. Also, please let me know if what I posted on the resource page sounds appropriate. Again, I wasn't sure I understood the main conclusions from your drawings.
Regards,
Dave
This is not true. Once you start using this system then you will find that you can pivot using Back Hand English and play shape.
In fact, you can play shape like you never imagined that you could before.
This system coupled with backhand english virtually eliminates the need to adjust the aiming when applying side spin. I say "virtually" because I am not going to rule out that there MIGHT BE some very small subconscious adjustment happening. I will however do another video today showing that there is no need, at least not for me to adjust my aiming method or place I aim to in order to play shape on the next ball.
Please see this video for clarification;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYNF0yF6zY&feature=channel
Well I play with CTE more today, and am convinced there is something there to use, but like most new thing it is trail, and effort until you get the hang of it.
Tank to all who have contributed to this thread, and spent a lot of time doing graphics, and diagrams.
Tank to all who have contributed to this thread, and spent a lot of time doing graphics, and diagrams.
Dr_Dave,
Yes the ghost ball at distance will also appear to be smaller (as small as the OB) when down. From a top view though, the ghost ball will be 2.25” in diameter like the OB (and CB).
Had I drawn the ghost ball as small as the OB, or .75”, the trajectory of the CB traveling to the OB after the pivot back to the center of the CB would not be correct for a .75” ghost ball. It would have missed far to the right, but that trajectory would be correct for a 2.25” ghost ball as shown from a top view. To have shown it that way would have seemed logical but it would have been incorrect from a top view where all of the balls are the same size (2.25”) - reality.
I hold that regardless of the OB size at distance, the edge (right or left) is an absolute point that contacts a vertical line of aim that rises from the felt and is a constant – CTE included.
What isn’t constant, when down and aiming/sighting, on an OB that appears smaller due to distance, are all of the surfaces and “points” of the OB like the OB center which would appear to be a shorter distance from the edge than the CB center to edge.
I wanted to use this to reconcile the fact that a parallel shift for an OB at 10” will miss an OB at 48”. I concluded that the shift must be very small to retain about the same bridge location and still hit the OB at 48”. Otherwise as you have written, the bridge must be moved, after the shift, and in this case back around 24” – not practical.
I then used the fact that the smaller appearance of the OB at distance can work in the shooter’s favor by laterally parallel/shifting the smaller appearing distance from the contact point to the center of the OB which is self compensating for all distances and cut angles.
This is different than the classic CTE that shifts the cue to the inside of the edge of the OB for thin cuts and to the outside of the OB edge for thick cuts.
I hope this helps and thanks.
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Ok, this is getting a little out of hand.
JB, you've been polite and you've been a sport, so I hate to call you out here... but to hint that the system helps play shape for you or somehow auto-compensates for the use of sidespin is absurd.
All it does (if it works at all) is get you your correct line of aim with center ball. This line of aim might ARGUABLY cancel out collision-induced throw in the sense that the shooter figures out this line of aim with experience and subsconscious adjustment (or visual intelligence if you want).
It does NOT cancel out the well-known effect of spin-induced throw. Once you're done pivoting, you've simply got your centerball line of aim. The system ends when the pivot does. If you then decide to apply sidespin (or even just draw) at this point, you will want to TWEAK that line of aim to compensate for the throw. The system has no tools or formula for that tweaking process.
You aren't training in the use of using backhand english just because at some point you had the stick pivoted off to the side. Training in the use of english involves actually hitting a ball offcenter. And to do that, the CTE user must go through the same challenges anyone else does. It's not like that pivoting action gives you practice for the "feel" of allowing a cue ball to squirt to the side, or how much tip offset gets you ideal results on a slow-spin inside english shot, or the amount of speed you need to put on a low-outside rail cut to prevent swerve in the CB's path.
Let's keep it real here guys. CTE proponents already make some hard-to-swallow claims. Trying to claim it helps with position play too is SERIOUSLY overselling it, and will hurt CTE's reputation more than help it.
JB, you've been polite and you've been a sport, so I hate to call you out here... but to hint that the system helps play shape for you or somehow auto-compensates for the use of sidespin is absurd.
All it does (if it works at all) is get you your correct line of aim with center ball. This line of aim might ARGUABLY cancel out collision-induced throw in the sense that the shooter figures out this line of aim with experience and subsconscious adjustment (or visual intelligence if you want).
It does NOT cancel out the well-known effect of spin-induced throw. Once you're done pivoting, you've simply got your centerball line of aim. The system ends when the pivot does. If you then decide to apply sidespin (or even just draw) at this point, you will want to TWEAK that line of aim to compensate for the throw. The system has no tools or formula for that tweaking process.
You aren't training in the use of using backhand english just because at some point you had the stick pivoted off to the side. Training in the use of english involves actually hitting a ball offcenter. And to do that, the CTE user must go through the same challenges anyone else does. It's not like that pivoting action gives you practice for the "feel" of allowing a cue ball to squirt to the side, or how much tip offset gets you ideal results on a slow-spin inside english shot, or the amount of speed you need to put on a low-outside rail cut to prevent swerve in the CB's path.
Let's keep it real here guys. CTE proponents already make some hard-to-swallow claims. Trying to claim it helps with position play too is SERIOUSLY overselling it, and will hurt CTE's reputation more than help it.
I understand what you are saying.
The only way to show you is to do the video proof. It's very difficult to explain this on the forum.
And it's difficult to show this on single camera video. But I will do my best to convey what I am experiencing.
I honestly don't change my aiming point when I apply spin. You can believe it or not.
I will show it this afternoon. I understand the physics shown in Dr. Dave's videos and Mike Page's videos. I understand that every cue has a pivot point. I also know how I play and what I do.
So when I show you on video that I aim the exact same way on the same shot with everything in the same place and work my way around the clock face with spin then you can tell me why it works. Of course I am not bending the rules of physics.
But I am also NOT changing my aiming point as Dr. Dave says I MUST do when applying spin.
I have a pretty good idea why it works as I explained in my BHE video. There is no magic, the cue line is on the same exact line as if I would have shifted my whole body to a new aiming point to compensate for the spin.
You can clearly see that in the video.
BHE also works with Ghost Ball. If you are able to accurately see where the NO ENGLISH GB contact point is then you can use BHE and make the shots.
Anyway, let me show you later and then we can continue the discussion then.