What exactly makes a Diamond the better table??

From a GC owner

...the mechanic may like the 1 piece slate Diamond for it's ease of leveling. As a player I don't really care about that, that's what I hire the mechanic for. I just care that when he's done, it's level.

Another factor is that so much of this discussion involves factory spec tables but that is not always the case in the real world. For instance, the pockets are bigger on the stock GC than the factory Diamond. But the pockets on my GC aren't. The Artemis rubber on the Diamond is suppposedly higher quality than the superspeeds on the GC, but my GC has top of the line Artemis rubber, not superspeed cushions.

These statements are given as if from a player's perspective, but they are really from a table owner's perspective. If you were playing in a typical poolroom, you would be playing on a GC with three piece slate that may or may not be perfectly leveled, with pockets bigger than a Diamond and with rubber inferior to Artemis.

Doesn't having your own GC brought closer to the level of Diamond quality mean that you recognize its inferiority and you compensate?
 
@topic,

in my opinion there are several tables which are built with much more quality than diamond-tables. Diamond tables are for sure not bad. But if you re watching for craftmanshop and *long-life-usability*, there would be several more tables who would be far better.
For reasons just talk to a table-mechanic, and i m sure he ll agree with my opinion :o). To descibe exactly the technical things unfortunatly my english wold be a bit too low and i don t want to write someting wrong caused by conversion problems.

And: a new installed table, installed by a good table mechanic is always a nice table...but for how long...that is the key imo^^

lg
Ingo

Ingo:

I'd be interested in knowing what brand/make/model tables you had in mind. Would that be the Dynamic tables from Germany? I've seen pictures of these, and watched some of the Euro-Tour 2010 played on them, and they appear to be modeled very closely to Brunswick Gold Crowns -- metal "catcher's mitt" pocket castings, rounded rail tops, "goblet"-style presentation (e.g. the table top + the legs makes the table appear to have that Gold-Crown-ish "goblet" look), round suction-cup-style foot castings, etc. Really resembles a Gold Crown in every way/shape/form.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dynamic tables are built much better than the Brunswick Gold Crowns -- especially the Gold Crown IIIs as Bob Jewett pointed out. (My area also suffers from the "bad batch run of Gold Crowns" and all the familiar problems with them are rampant. I've played on the Gold Crown IV and Gold Crown V, and these are much better than the GC IIIs.)

Anyway, let us know the brands and models you had in mind. Would love to see the pool table engineering outside of the U.S. for sure! I know there's some really great products out there (except the Chinese knock-offs of the Brunswick tables, that is).

-Sean
 
These statements are given as if from a player's perspective, but they are really from a table owner's perspective. If you were playing in a typical poolroom, you would be playing on a GC with three piece slate that may or may not be perfectly leveled, with pockets bigger than a Diamond and with rubber inferior to Artemis.

Doesn't having your own GC brought closer to the level of Diamond quality mean that you recognize its inferiority and you compensate?

Fair enough. Yes I'm a table owner but I would still maintain that my comments are from a player's perspective and not from an owner's viewpoint.

For example, as a table owner I went with the Artemis cushions because they last a lot longer than the superspeeds, not because I think they play so much better. From a player's perspective, if I'm in a pool hall with GC's and the cushions are dead I wouldn't blame that on the table at all, I'd call that a maintenance issue. If the table has good condition superspeed cushions they play just fine. Conversely, if I go into a room with Diamonds and the cushions are dead, I'm not writing off Diamond tables as crap because of this.

So if your saying superspeeds are inherently inferior PLAYING to Artemis, I don't necessarily agree with that. If you are saying they are inferior because they don't last as long, well that is a statement made from an owner's perspective. Some people feel the Artemis play a little too lively and prefer the superspeeds as being more "natural". Again, that's a matter of personal preference. It doesn't make the superspeeds FACTUALLY better.

Same goes with the pocket size, that's a set up issue from a player's perspective. By itself pocket size doesn't make a Diamond a better table than a Gold Crown. I visited the Jointed Cue in Sacramento and was not at all impressed with the tables there (Gold Crowns). 5" pockets, cushions on the dead side, worn cloth stained and full of holes/tears and no table lighting. From a players perspective I don't consider that the fault of the Gold Crowns. Across town at Hard Times the Gold Crowns had nice lively rubber, tight pockets set up by Ernesto, and good cloth. Great playing tables.

To me, as a player, pocket size is a set-up thing. Given the rooms I frequent (Hard Times and Hollywood Billiards in SoCal) it is Diamonds that have the huge buckets, not Brunswick Gold Crowns.

If you are saying Diamonds are better because you don't have to pay to tighten the pockets on a new table, that is a statement made from a owner's viewpoint, not a player.

Lastly, the same goes for if the table is level or not. That's almost entirely on the mechanic and not usually a reflection of the table manufacturer. Yes, the specific tables made by Diamond that come with one piece slates will never have an issue with seams coming apart etc. but again that to me is a maintenance issue. If I'm in a pool hall playing on a table that rolls off or worse, has slates not fitted properly, to me that's a reflection on the management of the room.

In the end, from a player's perspective, you can't compare a Gold Crown with ill fitting corner castings and dead rails to a brand new Diamond set up by Glen or Donny. As a player, I'm just saying that both brands, when properly set up, play great with some differences between them, such as the deep shelves and the shape of the rails.

Don't get me wrong, from the limited table time I've had on Diamonds I like them, a lot. But from my own personal perspective, as a player, I don't necessarily think they play better than GC's, just different in certain ways. In some ways I prefer Diamonds, but in other ways I prefer Gold Crowns. But these differences are more a matter of personal preference and not things that make one table factually better playing than the another.
 
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This is going to be the first post I make today, as I'm working on rebuilding the rails on a Brunswick Centenial 9ft right now but........I hate to correct you on what you said. I understand the Diamond ProAm is only about 8 years old at this point in time, BUT....having spend the last 27 years working on just about every kind of commercial pool table built or sold in this country...and being able to see the break down of the tables year after year of commercial use....the Diamond ProAm is going to turn out to be the LONGEST lasting table ever produced in the history of pool table manufacturing....and you can take that to the bank! In 30 years from now...when the finish has worn off, laminates have worn off, rails have been dented, burned, scratched...all the normal wear and tear tables go through in a commercial environment....the Diamond ProAm after buffing the rails out....is going to look just as new as the day it was delivered...is going to be just as level....and play just the same as day one, and be worth more than the day it was bought new. I'll get into this more fact based later on today after I finish working on this table:D

Glen

PS....I AM a table mechanic;)


If I could rep you a thousand times a day, I would. Truth.
 
What is he, a buddha?
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Nyah nyah, made you look [at your original post]. :p :D

-Sean

Haha, I seriously looked back in about .003464 seconds to make sure I didn't completely botch that one. You got me good, Sean. Got me good.
 
Diamond

Here's my .02................when I ordered my table back in August of 2007, this is what I wanted.
1) 9ft table with 4.5 in. pockets.......no shims

I first went to the local Brunswick dealer and inquired, the GC4 was the latest model at that time, priced at $8300. Brunswick told me they had no option to get 4.5in. pockets. They told me to have somebody shim the pockets.

I have played on many tables with shims and I can tell you that there is a major difference when playing 1 pocket and you bank a ball off the corner of a shim. UGH!!!

Next I went over to a friends house who had a 9ft. Pro Am with the Pro cut pockets (4.5in)
We played for about 3 hours and I absolutely loved how the table played. The only thing I noticed was how the rails played a little bit shorte on some bank shots.r

I contacted Diamond billiards and checked out their website. I didn't care for the look of the Pro Am so I ordered a Diamond Pro with the pro cut pockets (no extra charge by the way).

The price of the Diamond Pro at the time was $6150. To sum it up, I don't mind how the Brunswick plays, but they did not offer smaller pockets at the time and their table was about $2000 more. I went with the Diamond and so far, everybody that comes over to play loves it.

Nowadays the GC5 is supposed to be a little different. I beleive they come with smaller pockets, which by the way just means they put longer rails. It should not cost them any more money, but I beleive they charge a little extra for these. Not sure but I think they do.

Anyway, that's it for me.
Love Chris's table.:) He's nice enough to have our BCA team members and other friends over occasionally and most have to be shown the door, so he can get some sleep.:wink:
 
Fair enough. Yes I'm a table owner but I would still maintain that my comments are from a player's perspective and not from an owner's viewpoint.

For example, as a table owner I went with the Artemis cushions because they last a lot longer than the superspeeds, not because I think they play so much better. From a player's perspective, if I'm in a pool hall with GC's and the cushions are dead I wouldn't blame that on the table at all, I'd call that a maintenance issue. If the table has good condition superspeed cushions they play just fine. Conversely, if I go into a room with Diamonds and the cushions are dead, I'm not writing off Diamond tables as crap because of this.

So if your saying superspeeds are inherently inferior PLAYING to Artemis, I don't necessarily agree with that. If you are saying they are inferior because they don't last as long, well that is a statement made from an owner's perspective. Some people feel the Artemis play a little too lively and prefer the superspeeds as being more "natural". Again, that's a matter of personal preference. It doesn't make the superspeeds FACTUALLY better.

Same goes with the pocket size, that's a set up issue from a player's perspective. By itself pocket size doesn't make a Diamond a better table than a Gold Crown. I visited the Jointed Cue in Sacramento and was not at all impressed with the tables there (Gold Crowns). 5" pockets, cushions on the dead side, worn cloth stained and full of holes/tears and no table lighting. From a players perspective I don't consider that the fault of the Gold Crowns. Across town at Hard Times the Gold Crowns had nice lively rubber, tight pockets set up by Ernesto, and good cloth. Great playing tables.

To me, as a player, pocket size is a set-up thing. Given the rooms I frequent (Hard Times and Hollywood Billiards in SoCal) it is Diamonds that have the huge buckets, not Brunswick Gold Crowns.

If you are saying Diamonds are better because you don't have to pay to tighten the pockets on a new table, that is a statement made from a owner's viewpoint, not a player.

Lastly, the same goes for if the table is level or not. That's almost entirely on the mechanic and not usually a reflection of the table manufacturer. Yes, the specific tables made by Diamond that come with one piece slates will never have an issue with seams coming apart etc. but again that to me is a maintenance issue. If I'm in a pool hall playing on a table that rolls off or worse, has slates not fitted properly, to me that's a reflection on the management of the room.

In the end, from a player's perspective, you can't compare a Gold Crown with ill fitting corner castings and dead rails to a brand new Diamond set up by Glen or Donny. As a player, I'm just saying that both brands, when properly set up, play great with some differences between them, such as the deep shelves and the shape of the rails.

Don't get me wrong, from the limited table time I've had on Diamonds I like them, a lot. But from my own personal perspective, as a player, I don't necessarily think they play better than GC's, just different in certain ways. In some ways I prefer Diamonds, but in other ways I prefer Gold Crowns. But these differences are more a matter of personal preference and not things that make one table factually better playing than the another.

Any new table play great at first. If you have a new chlot on them and its just been set up they play great at first. So if you come in pool room and play on that table and its play great and next day its play like crap you not think its because of bad table, its because how they maintenance the table?
 
Any new table play great at first. If you have a new chlot on them and its just been set up they play great at first. So if you come in pool room and play on that table and its play great and next day its play like crap you not think its because of bad table, its because how they maintenance the table?

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making but let me try to answer.

I couldn't tell you. It has never happened to me where either a Diamond or a Gold Crown has gone from good to crap in one day. I'm not sure I've really seen ANY make of table go from good to bad that fast.

As far as Gold Crowns or Diamonds go, I think both tables play consistently from day to day (with the exception of perhaps humidity,which can affect any make of table).

If you are saying one or the other of these tables have the tendency to turn to crap over night, I think you are a cult of one. I've never heard that complaint before about either one of these.
 
Bob Jewett;2465674 The only design issue I know of with Diamonds is that pocket color comes off on the balls.[/QUOTE said:
I fixed my Diamond pockets once and for all and got rid of the marks for ever.:D
 
What? No love for Connelly? I just knew someone was gonna pop in and swear by them too...

guess not LOL
 
What? No love for Connelly? I just knew someone was gonna pop in and swear by them too...

guess not LOL

I think they made a few models that had a 2 inch slate and played pretty sporty. If I remember correctly the company went belly up.
 
I'll say this really easy....

Straight out of the box there is no table in the universe that can match the play of either a GC or the Diamond

its like saying what hits better a szamboti or a black boar?

They both have their own unique qualities and are both extremely exceptional tables to play on.....

IMOP if you have a gripe over either table then you should back your bags and pick up another past time.

-Grey Ghost-
 
How did you fix this issue?

Elbow grease....and lots of it. I took white rags and denatured alcohol and rubbed the inside of the pockets until very little dye came off on the rags. It took about 20 minutes a pocket before I was satisfied. You really only have to scrub the areas where the balls hit on the hard shots. I did this about a year ago and have only seen 2 marks since then. This problem is not just a Diamond pocket thing.....I have seen it on Olhausen's and Connelly's as well. I would suggest the rags to be white because of their ability to give "dye feed back".
 
Maybe I am a Diamond guy. I don't know. My dream has always been to have my own pool room with like 20 Gold Crowns, green cloth, dark atmosphere except for the lights over the tables, and one Diamond table sitting off to the side that is my personal table for shooting straight pool on. Only customers allowed on that table are the ones shooting with me. If I'm not there that table is covered and not touched. And definitely no 9-ball......er......any game that needs big breaking. I don't want any damage to my surface.
MULLY
a Diamond in cherry would be sweet
 
Elbow grease....and lots of it. I took white rags and denatured alcohol and rubbed the inside of the pockets until very little dye came off on the rags. It took about 20 minutes a pocket before I was satisfied. You really only have to scrub the areas where the balls hit on the hard shots. I did this about a year ago and have only seen 2 marks since then. This problem is not just a Diamond pocket thing.....I have seen it on Olhausen's and Connelly's as well. I would suggest the rags to be white because of their ability to give "dye feed back".

Thanx CB. Someone earlier in this post mentioned magic eraser and water. I wonder why diamond doesn't just leave the leather untreated. Wouldn't this alleviate the issue?
 
Thanx CB. Someone earlier in this post mentioned magic eraser and water. I wonder why diamond doesn't just leave the leather untreated. Wouldn't this alleviate the issue?

Good question, I know that Diamond farms the pockets out to another company. The cool thing about this method is when you are done you have to look real close to even notice the color change because the inside of the pockets are still a dark gray.
 
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