looking for advice -- equipment to use in making a commercial pool DVD

[BillPorter]

I know some of the AZ people have considerable expertise about camcorders and making DVDs. I have an old friend who is planning to make an instructional DVD and I may be helping him with this project. I've fiddled around with camcorders a bit, but don't have any deep knowledge about them.

I am thinking that no camcorder under $500 or $600 would produce the quality of video we would want, and maybe I should be shooting at the $800 to $1,000 camcorders? Hopefully, we won't need to go up to the $3,000 to $4,000 range for this project. I am pretty sure we will need to use a good wireless mike as well.

I have very limited experience with video editing, but would probably try to learn enough to do what would be needed for such a project.

And then there is the matter of producing the DVDs in quantity with a nice label.

So give me a ball park estimate of how much we would need to invest in equipment and any opinions you may have about editing and producing the DVDs in quantity.

Thanks in advance for any help on this project.

 

[Dave Nelson]

I have a $1700.00 Sony and a $280.00 Cannon and I can't see any difference in video quality.

Dave Nelson

 

[dr_dave]

I know some of the AZ people have considerable expertise about camcorders and making DVDs. I have an old friend who is planning to make an instructional DVD and I may be helping him with this project. I've fiddled around with camcorders a bit, but don't have any deep knowledge about them.

I am thinking that no camcorder under $500 or $600 would produce the quality of video we would want, and maybe I should be shooting at the $800 to $1,000 camcorders? Hopefully, we won't need to go up to the $3,000 to $4,000 range for this project. I am pretty sure we will need to use a good wireless mike as well.

I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a video camera, especially if you don't plan to use it very long. Compare video output from a collection of cameras at Best Buy (ask them to show you playback on a TV). I doubt you will see much difference in quality over a large price range. I have a Sony mini-DV camcorder I bought about 10 years ago for about $700. Cameras have obviously come down in price since then (and no longer need tapes, which take time to upload to the computer). I've done all of my filming and DVDs with this camera and have been very happy with the results. Although, my next camera will certainly be HD, and have direct file-download to a PC. I would also like to have better lighting, which can make a big difference!

I have very limited experience with video editing, but would probably try to learn enough to do what would be needed for such a project.

I've used Pinnacle Studio for everything. It is an easy-to-use, no-frills, inexpensive consumer video-editing package. I've supplemented graphics (which are limited in Pinnacle) with Corel Draw (for complex illustrations that I import into Pinnacle as images). If you want a fancier package, Adobe Premiere is the way to go, but it will cost you, and it will take longer to learn.

And then there is the matter of producing the DVDs in quantity with a nice label.

There are many companies out there that can help with this at very reasonable prices. I've worked with Idea Media, New Cyberian, and Disc Makers. Both are good. I've done my own artwork in Corel Draw.

So give me a ball park estimate of how much we would need to invest in equipment and any opinions you may have about editing and producing the DVDs in quantity.

In addition to the camera, a nice tripod is an absolute requirement, and good auxiliary lighting and a wireless mic are also good to have. Although, it is better to do as much narration as possible later via a decent mic hooked directly to the PC.

I think $1000 can get you started. Concerning DVD replication costs, see the company websites for all of the different options and price break points.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[Fast Lenny]

If your going to do a video with a limited budget I would try to get a 3CCD Panasonic GS500 or lower model, I have a GS320 which is a pretty cool little camera I scored in a pawn shop for $70. Usually they run about $300-$400 on Ebay and are pretty good quality along with having a built in USB and fire wire for transferring the video to your computer. It uses a Mini-DV tape to record or you could hook it up via fire wire and capture it straight to a hard drive also. I think for $1000 you can get one of these cameras, a Rode mic, and a nice tripod along with other odds and ends.

 

[BillPorter]

I wouldn't spend a lot of money on a video camera, especially if you don't plan to use it very long.
Good luck,
Dave

Dr. Dave, thanks a lot for your very informative reply! In fact, I think I'll just suggest that YOU do the video for the instructional DVD! :grin-square::grin::smile:

I will definitely consider you recommendations very seriously.

 

[BillPorter]

If your going to do a video with a limited budget I would try to get a 3CCD Panasonic GS500 or lower model, I have a GS320 which is a pretty cool little camera I scored in a pawn shop for $70. Usually they run about $300-$400 on Ebay and are pretty good quality along with having a built in USB and fire wire for transferring the video to your computer. It uses a Mini-DV tape to record or you could hook it up via fire wire and capture it straight to a hard drive also. I think for $1000 you can get one of these cameras, a Rode mic, and a nice tripod along with other odds and ends.

Thanks, Lenny! I plan to check out the camera you recommended.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr. Dave, thanks a lot for your very informative reply! In fact, I think I'll just suggest that YOU do the video for the instructional DVD! :grin-square::grin::smile:

I will definitely consider you recommendations very seriously.

You're welcome.

I aim to squerve (but not to shoot any more video for a while). :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

 

[peteypooldude]

I heard Cleary make an offer the other day to film a dvd

 

[Hobbes]

In today's world HD is the best way to go. But if you cannot afford an HD camera remember this: no matter what format you end up working with, always start with the highest quality product you can.

Wireless lavaliere mic is essential. Shotgun mics will sound tinny and amateurish at best.

ALWAYS use a tripod. People think they can hand hold a shot steady. They can't.

Final Cut Pro is a fantastic editing system and is easy to use.

DVD duplication can be hired out.

If your plan is to make a video and sell it commercially, do it as professionally as possible. It can be done less expensively, but you must be very careful and pay attention to every detail. I've been in TV for 15 years and know tiny mistakes are what people remember! Have a good pair of headphones and listen to the audio as it's being recorded. Don't leave the camera unattended. Watch and listen. Keep an eye on the background, etc.

Enjoy, and good luck with your project!

 

[Scott Lee]

Bill...I agree with the others that you don't need to spend a ton on a camera. In fact the Flip MinoHD Gen 2 camcorder is pretty cheap (on sale through this month at Costco), comes with an 8G memory, an HDMI cable, and with the ability to upload to YouTube right from the camera. One thing I recommend, is that you have at least two cameras, and make one of them an overhead view. We had a four camera setup for our instructional video, one of which was an overhead view. The overhead view is a great addition. You can mix and edit the video pretty easily. Good lighting is essential.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I know some of the AZ people have considerable expertise about camcorders and making DVDs. I have an old friend who is planning to make an instructional DVD and I may be helping him with this project. I've fiddled around with camcorders a bit, but don't have any deep knowledge about them.

I am thinking that no camcorder under $500 or $600 would produce the quality of video we would want, and maybe I should be shooting at the $800 to $1,000 camcorders? Hopefully, we won't need to go up to the $3,000 to $4,000 range for this project. I am pretty sure we will need to use a good wireless mike as well.

I have very limited experience with video editing, but would probably try to learn enough to do what would be needed for such a project.

And then there is the matter of producing the DVDs in quantity with a nice label.

So give me a ball park estimate of how much we would need to invest in equipment and any opinions you may have about editing and producing the DVDs in quantity.

Thanks in advance for any help on this project.

 

[BillPorter]

In today's world HD is the best way to go. But if you cannot afford an HD camera remember this: no matter what format you end up working with, always start with the highest quality product you can.

Wireless lavaliere mic is essential. Shotgun mics will sound tinny and amateurish at best.

ALWAYS use a tripod. People think they can hand hold a shot steady. They can't.

Final Cut Pro is a fantastic editing system and is easy to use.

DVD duplication can be hired out.

If your plan is to make a video and sell it commercially, do it as professionally as possible. It can be done less expensively, but you must be very careful and pay attention to every detail. I've been in TV for 15 years and know tiny mistakes are what people remember! Have a good pair of headphones and listen to the audio as it's being recorded. Don't leave the camera unattended. Watch and listen. Keep an eye on the background, etc.

Enjoy, and good luck with your project!

I hear you. We will definitely be using a tripod and wireless lavaliere mike. And I will check out Final Cut Pro. Whoops! I see that Final Cut is for a Mac and all my computers are PCs.

 

[BillPorter]

Bill...I agree with the others that you don't need to spend a ton on a camera. In fact the Flip MinoHD Gen 2 camcorder is pretty cheap (on sale through this month at Costco), comes with an 8G memory, an HDMI cable, and with the ability to upload to YouTube right from the camera. One thing I recommend, is that you have at least two cameras, and make one of them an overhead view. We had a four camera setup for our instructional video, one of which was an overhead view. The overhead view is a great addition. You can mix and edit the video pretty easily. Good lighting is essential.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thanks, Scott, I will definitely consider that overhead camera idea. I am trying to recall Freddy's DVDs on bank pool and I don't think he used one. But I can see how it could be very helpful.

 

[Dave Nelson]

There is no startling difference between HD(high definition)and SD(standard definition. However, the industry(racket, actually) is pushing HD.

Consider the following. I recorded a 15 minute segment of pool practice using my Sony HDR-SR1 HD camcorder. I burned two disks of this video. One in HD,(AVCHD, which Sony pushes) and one in SD. Burn time for the AVCHD was 5 minutes. Burn time for the SD was 2 hours 28 minutes. This is strictly due to the manner in which the ruling cabal has rigged the system.

Now, the AVCHD disk will play back only in an AVCHD player, which in my case means the same dvd burner/player with which I made it. It will not play through either of the 2 TVs in this house, one of which is brand new. The SD disk, on the other hand, will play through any king of dvd player you throw it into.

The AVCHD disk as it appears on my monitor is of poor quality. It looks as though the lighting were reduced by 50%. The SD disk, played through either TV set looks professional. Take it for what its worth.

Dave Nelson

 

[freddy the beard]

Call me

Bill, you can call me for some helpful hints. There are a million jerk off things that can go awry shooting a DVD. (The air conditioner exhaust sound for one).

The camera Randi Givens and I used was $3500 and was not HD. I also have a HD camera that cost 2k that I am going to use next. Final Cut Pro is the editing program we used, it is Mac and it aint so easy. Be sure to use good, White light and plenty of it.

Beard

 

[ctyhntr]

From basic photography I remember this advice. A beginner worries about the quality of his equipment, a professional worries about the lighting.

 

[nathandumoulin]

If you're doing this gig for fun, then I suggest you rent the equipment. This will allow you to use higher quality cameras on a smaller budget, and more of them (a single camera production has almost zero chance in today's competitive market).

On the other hand, if you're trying to produce a commercial DVD to sell, then ....well....I strongly suggest that you reconsider. Producing something for the retail market requires a TON of work. 100 times more than anyone assumes. It also requires a tremendous amount of knowledge. Stop, get proper financing, educated yourself, and then decide.

Here are a few things to research or consider:

1) Contrary to what other forum members have said, the price and quality of your camera DOES matter. More expensive cameras have better compression, input audio jacks for external mics, larger sensors that produce better picture in low light, adjustable shutter speeds, etc. These things are all necessary when shooting professional pool. A few members have suggested using the Flip cameras. Do *not* do this. They offer none of the necessary cameras functions and are made for 'point and shoot' consumers. Slow shutter speed, no white balance, and auto exposure will put your production in jeopardy before it's even begun.

2) Next is cost. People are suggesting Final Cut pro. Well right there you're out $1000 for the license. In order to edit HD footage on a MAC, you're looking at a $4k-$6k. You then need about $2k+ for equipment rentals, as you'll need cameras, tripods, dollys, a light rig, audio equipment, etc. DVD replication is also done with a *minimum* order of 1000 units. The world has 2 primary TV standards, PAL and NTSC, so you'll need to produce both if you want to sell outside of the USA. At 1,000 units minimum for each, you're talking $3,000 for your first run. Sure, you can burn the DVDs yourself at lower quality, but if you're thinking that small-time already, then you've already lost money on the project. Add in a DVD authoring package, Photoshop for design work, and whatever other software you'll need (like After Effects and an Audio suite), you're out another $1,200+. All in all, it takes about $8,000+ to film an ultra low budget movie. And this is *at cost*.

3) Having the financing and equipment is only the first step. You need to research a ton of stuff, such as:
- camera operations (shutter speeds, frame rates, exposure, time code, white balance, gain, etc)
- lighting (flo, tungsten, daylight, soft light, rim lights, etc)
- video signals (ntsc VS pal VS HD, progressive VS interlaced, frame rates, etc)
- audio (lavs, shotguns, cardioids, ambient, mixers, etc)
- software (compression, color space, aspect ratios, delivery standards, etc),
- licensing (software, royalty free music, effect libraries, etc)
- authoring (programing dvds menus, regions, standards, compression, down conversion, etc)
- legal (contracts, royalties, copyright, trademarks, business registration, etc)
- delivery (web site, ecommerce, merchant gateways, exporting, packaging, etc)

As you can see, there's a lot to look into. Don't get me wrong, you can make a movie on a budget of a few thousand, but realistically, you won't be producing anything that will continue to sell for very long.

Don't take this as a message to scare you away though! I'm merely letting you know that there is a LOT to consider here, and even more to learn. Best of luck on however you choose to proceed.

 

[BillPorter]

(a single camera production has almost zero chance in today's competitive market).

I think Freddy the Beard just used a one camera setup and did OK with it IMHO.

On the other hand, if you're trying to produce a commercial DVD to sell, then ....well....I strongly suggest that you reconsider.

Wow, that's an awfully discouraging comment!

Producing something for the retail market requires a TON of work. 100 times more than anyone assumes. It also requires a tremendous amount of knowledge. Stop, get proper financing, educated yourself, and then decide.

I'm thinking the order is wrong here. How about if I decide first, and then get the financining and education?

Here are a few things to research or consider:

I have to fault you for an incorrect use of the word "few" here.

1) Contrary to what other forum members have said, the price and quality of your camera DOES matter. More expensive cameras have better compression, input audio jacks for external mics, larger sensors that produce better picture in low light, adjustable shutter speeds, etc. These things are all necessary when shooting professional pool. A few members have suggested using the Flip cameras. Do *not* do this. They offer none of the necessary cameras functions and are made for 'point and shoot' consumers. Slow shutter speed, no white balance, and auto exposure will put your production in jeopardy before it's even begun.

OK, I understand that I need something more than a Flip camera, but I'm still not sure whether I need something better than I can get in the $1,000 range.

2) Next is cost. People are suggesting Final Cut pro. Well right there you're out $1000 for the license. In order to edit HD footage on a MAC, you're looking at a $4k-$6k. You then need about $2k+ for equipment rentals, as you'll need cameras, tripods, dollys, a light rig, audio equipment, etc. DVD replication is also done with a *minimum* order of 1000 units. The world has 2 primary TV standards, PAL and NTSC, so you'll need to produce both if you want to sell outside of the USA. At 1,000 units minimum for each, you're talking $3,000 for your first run. Sure, you can burn the DVDs yourself at lower quality, but if you're thinking that small-time already, then you've already lost money on the project. Add in a DVD authoring package, Photoshop for design work, and whatever other software you'll need (like After Effects and an Audio suite), you're out another $1,200+. All in all, it takes about $8,000+ to film an ultra low budget movie. And this is *at cost*.

Good information. Thanks! (I already said I don't use a Mac, so Final Cut is out. Don't think we'll need a dolly.)

3) Having the financing and equipment is only the first step. You need to research a ton of stuff, such as:
- camera operations (shutter speeds, frame rates, exposure, time code, white balance, gain, etc)
- lighting (flo, tungsten, daylight, soft light, rim lights, etc)
- video signals (ntsc VS pal VS HD, progressive VS interlaced, frame rates, etc)
- audio (lavs, shotguns, cardioids, ambient, mixers, etc)
- software (compression, color space, aspect ratios, delivery standards, etc),
- licensing (software, royalty free music, effect libraries, etc)
- authoring (programing dvds menus, regions, standards, compression, down conversion, etc)
- legal (contracts, royalties, copyright, trademarks, business registration, etc)
- delivery (web site, ecommerce, merchant gateways, exporting, packaging, etc)

Some things to ponder here. Thanks.

As you can see, there's a lot to look into. Don't get me wrong, you can make a movie on a budget of a few thousand, but realistically, you won't be producing anything that will continue to sell for very long.

Don't take this as a message to scare you away though! I'm merely letting you know that there is a LOT to consider here, and even more to learn. Best of luck on however you choose to proceed.

I appreciate you taking the time to make this lengthy post. I guess you are saying that I am probably just not up to the task, and you might be right!

 

[nathandumoulin]

I'm thinking the order is wrong here. How about if I decide first, and then get the financining and education?

Here's a rather poor analogy, but it's the best I can think of right now:

Imagine coming up with an idea for a book, but you don't know how to write very well. You decide to wing it anyway.

You start writing right away, and the concept of your story is excellent. And yet, no one seems to be reading it.

Why? The problem is that although everything seems great to you, your lack of writing skills is very apparent to others. Your poor understanding of grammar, spelling, and vocabulary are glaring errors in the eyes of the reader, and retract from the quality of your work. You can't see it, because you don't know any better. They however have a trained eye, and see it easily.

My point is this. Not everyone can see the elements that are required to make a good movie. Composition, flow, lighting, dialogue, etc. A director needs to have a strong understanding of these elements to make it work.

Without this skillset, it's a bad idea to proceed. It's best to educate yourself, run some tests, and see if you can learn the necessary skills. If the results of your efforts are acceptable, then proceed to acquire financing.

And please, show your tests to trained professionals. Showing it to friends and family won't work. Not only will they be biased and overly supportive, but they likely won't possess the trained eye that is necessary to properly critic the work.

I appreciate you taking the time to make this lengthy post. I guess you are saying that I am probably just not up to the task, and you might be right!

My apologies if I sound discouraging!

All I'm trying to say is that anyone can make a movie, but very few can make a GOOD one. The trick is to ensure that you are properly educated and prepared. It's a costly and time consuming process, so I just want you to understand what you're getting into.

There will be many challenges ahead, but educating yourself will allow you to accommodate for many of the problems/issues before it's too late.

:thumbup:

 

[BillPorter]

Here's a rather poor analogy, but it's the best I can think of right now:
Imagine coming up with an idea for a book, but you don't know how to write very well. You decide to wing it anyway.

You are right, this is not a good analogy. When I suggested that I could decide first and then get the financing and education, I didn't say I should "decide to wing it." I would "get the financing AND EDUCATION" and then start the project.

My point is this. Not everyone can see the elements that are required to make a good movie. Composition, flow, lighting, dialogue, etc. A director needs to have a strong understanding of these elements to make it work.

I'm thinking you may have the wrong idea about what I am trying to do. My original post referred to "an instructional DVD." We aren't trying to make a movie, just showing some information about making certain shots on a pool table.

And please, show your tests to trained professionals. Showing it to friends and family won't work. Not only will they be biased and overly supportive, but they likely won't possess the trained eye that is necessary to properly critic the work.

Good point! (I guess you mean "critique" and not "critic.")

My apologies if I sound discouraging!

Apology accepted.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

People don't buy solely based on production quality. Information is MOST important. What good is a hot-looking production if the information just isn't there?

A couple of examples are Perfect Aim, Schmidt's 245, Banking with the Beard, etc. All sold pretty well and were home-made.

Not down-playing production, but it's definitely not the driving factor when making a video purchase.