runs over 400 on 9ft tables
- Thread starter 4pointer
- Start date
Straight Pool High Runs
George is a fantastic writer. Even if he wrote about something other than pool, I think I would like it. He is also quite a good 14.1 player. He has been playing in the Red Shoes 14.1 league I am in for at least the 5 or so years I have been playing in it, probably longer. I remember describing my first experience playing George as feeling like I was trapped in one of his chapters as he methodically picked the racks apart. Not much has changed. He had another 100 plus ball run about a year ago, I think.
p.s. Mr. Smith's Book on 3 cushion is also very good, for those of you interested. I bought it and have looked at the beginning a bit including the big ball section and it has opened my mind to new possibilities in three cushion. If you are at all interested in the game, you should give it a look. I was telling George Pawelski that 14.1 was enough for me; I had no time to learn 3 cushion and he said that three cushion will help your 14.1. George is at least a 200 ball runner so he knows whereof he speaks.
Something to consider.
George is a fantastic writer. Even if he wrote about something other than pool, I think I would like it. He is also quite a good 14.1 player. He has been playing in the Red Shoes 14.1 league I am in for at least the 5 or so years I have been playing in it, probably longer. I remember describing my first experience playing George as feeling like I was trapped in one of his chapters as he methodically picked the racks apart. Not much has changed. He had another 100 plus ball run about a year ago, I think.
p.s. Mr. Smith's Book on 3 cushion is also very good, for those of you interested. I bought it and have looked at the beginning a bit including the big ball section and it has opened my mind to new possibilities in three cushion. If you are at all interested in the game, you should give it a look. I was telling George Pawelski that 14.1 was enough for me; I had no time to learn 3 cushion and he said that three cushion will help your 14.1. George is at least a 200 ball runner so he knows whereof he speaks.
Something to consider.
Dennis; Hi, glad you like the work. If you talk to George P, tell him I said hello, the last time I saw him I gave him 17 on 50 for $1,000.00 a game at the North Shore club, The Beard's joint, he lost 2 games, he was getting staked by "Chico" from Cicero. I always liked George P, he had a hell of a stroke!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Very well said!
As you know, I've been playing 3 cushion for a while (because I like the game) and I have a thought on this. I really don't think it helps your 14.1, or any pool game for that matter. The balls, being bigger and heavier, react differently and might even throw your pool game off a bit. For one thing, squirt is less of a factor than in pool (using the same cue). Billiard balls are more difficult to draw and seem to me to have more of a tendency to follow. I'm not saying that 3 cushion knowledge can't be helpful in pool, particularly rotation games, but for the time you put in I don't think the payoff is worth it. But it's a beautiful game on its own.
In his group class that I attended, I think John Schmidt said something like "if you want to improve in straight pool, practice straight pool; if you want to improve your 9-ball, practice 9-ball." I can't remember if he mentioned 3 cushion but the same would apply there, even more so.
Rich,
I can't speak to the matter personally, having played very little 3 cushion; but 2 great champion players insist that I must learn it to be a well rounded pool player. In their view, despite the weight/size of the balls, it teaches the player to focus on the cue ball reaction, movement, angles, and speed. It also allows the player to see the full effect of different speeds on the object ball (since it doesn't "disappear" into the pocket).
I have been told in no uncertain terms that this info is extremely valuable for 9ball safety and kicking; and in straight pool position play. Whether I like it or not; my instructors are insisting that I start playing 3 cushion.
I would be interested in sjm's opinion; as he definitely is an old school pool player who also plays billiards...maybe he will weigh in.
Bob Jewett too, if he cares to join in. He can comment on whether my impression of the balls reacting differently is correct or not.
It is true that a lot of great old-time pool players were also excellent at 3 cushion (Greenleaf, Mosconi, Crane). But I doubt that today's great players have ever devoted much time to it - except Efren.
Of course, they react somewhat differently being different sizes and weights, but I would venture to guess that a lot could still be learned that could be incorporated into the other game.
I certainly don't have the credentials to second guess George Pawelski or Jeannette Lee and Mark Wilson if I am guessing Don's teachers correctly.
Dallas West, another old timer is pretty good at it, too.
I think the difference in reaction you get from how clean the balls and cloth are is far larger than the difference between a pool ball and a carom ball. The difference in diameters is only 8%.
More generally, there are aspects of both carom billiards and snooker that are important in pool. If you play those other games, I think you will learn those aspects faster. Of course, I'm saying that as someone who learned to play in a room that had all three kinds of tables, and most of the players spent some time on each kind of table. No one was afraid of ruining their eight ball game by playing a little golf.
Last edited:
The difference in weight, though, is 27% (assuming the same material in both). I do think the balls react differently, but it doesn't really confuse me.
An old-timer I sometimes play billiards with talks about how differently the "new" plastic billiard balls react compared to the old ivories (the ivories were heavier). He played a lot 60 years ago, then gave up the game to focus on bowling (at which he became a Hall of Famer), and only recently started to play billiards again. He's still a very good player.
Ivory Billiard Balls were NOT heavier!
Rich; I don't know what OLD TIMER told you that, but, it's completely FALSE. I'm one of those Semi -Old Timer's who started with ivory balls in 1964.
Here's the skinny on the ivory balls. Any BIG time billiard room back in the day that had at least 5-10 billiard tables had 3 sets of ivory balls for each table. The reason being, when the new sets of balls arrived they give the OVERSIZE balls to the straight rail players, after a few months when they got out-of-round they rotate the sets. when they come back from being turned down,(made smaller), they give those sets to the balkline players, in another 3 to 4 months they turn them down again to thier final size for 3 Cushion players which is 2-25/64'ths. This is smalller than the ball we play with today, which is 61.5mm, this is why the ivory balls were NEVER heavier for 3 Cushion play. The ivory balls were not harder to draw, the action on the ball was just delayed because the ivory ball is more porous than plastic balls. the plastic balls bounce a little more than the ivory.
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Rich; I don't know what OLD TIMER told you that, but, it's completely FALSE. I'm one of those Semi -Old Timer's who started with ivory balls in 1964.
Here's the skinny on the ivory balls. Any BIG time billiard room back in the day that had at least 5-10 billiard tables had 3 sets of ivory balls for each table. The reason being, when the new sets of balls arrived they give the OVERSIZE balls to the straight rail players, after a few months when they got out-of-round they rotate the sets. when they come back from being turned down,(made smaller), they give those sets to the balkline players, in another 3 to 4 months they turn them down again to thier final size for 3 Cushion players which is 2-25/64'ths. This is smalller than the ball we play with today, which is 61.5mm, this is why the ivory balls were NEVER heavier for 3 Cushion play. The ivory balls were not harder to draw, the action on the ball was just delayed because the ivory ball is more porous than plastic balls. the plastic balls bounce a little more than the ivory.
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Last edited:
Sheesh, I really got in over my head in this thread!
i think
i think 3 cushion is awesome,although i suck at it. ive been on 3 cushion table about 10 times with high run of 6. i only made that many because i hads coach.
i think a table thats 4 .5x9 ft with normal pool balls would be good to learn kicking etc. basically a pool table without pockets.
on another subject i think bill smith is awesome and very smart.
he mentioned running 92 and out with the guy needing 2 for 5000 as being maybe tougher then running 4 hundred plus practicing
thats awesome but believe me 92 and out under any circumstance is easier and more likely then 400 plus practicing. imho.
i think 3 cushion is awesome,although i suck at it. ive been on 3 cushion table about 10 times with high run of 6. i only made that many because i hads coach.
i think a table thats 4 .5x9 ft with normal pool balls would be good to learn kicking etc. basically a pool table without pockets.
on another subject i think bill smith is awesome and very smart.
he mentioned running 92 and out with the guy needing 2 for 5000 as being maybe tougher then running 4 hundred plus practicing
thats awesome but believe me 92 and out under any circumstance is easier and more likely then 400 plus practicing. imho.
John, the 92 vs. 400 comment was from a George Fels column. Bill initially forgot to say where it came from.
Not really. Bill is mistaken.
Ivory balls are harder to draw than plastics because they are less elastic than plastic balls. That is, they lose more energy in the collision, which means an ivory cue ball does not stop dead for full hit -- it continues through the object ball. Your draw has to overcome that forward motion before it can start to pull the cue ball back.
The angle on follow shots is also changed, so that an ivory ball will follow straighter forward than a plastic ball on a non-full hit. This is for the same reason: the cue ball tend to "mush" through the object ball. It is easy to see these effects -- they are not subtle if you know what you're looking for.
This phenomenon was one of the things studied with high-speed video in the Jacksonville Project. One of the participants in that study was Hans de Jager, who was the European record-holder in Artistic Billiards, which at that time was played with ivory balls.
Bob; Maybe certain people's stokes have a more difficult time drawing an ivory ball than most!
Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
P.S. When do you ever try to stop the cue ball dead in 3cbilliards?, BOB
Last edited: