Can you truly call the APA a success?

TimKrazyMon

TimKrazyMon

Kid Delicious' Evil Twin
Silver Member
I see how big the APA has gotten (approx. 270K members) and what a great business it is & how it's brought pool to the masses. However, I was recently reading through one of their magazines and discovered that the driving force behind Terry & Larry starting the APA was to grow the pro game. Their argument at the time was that pool had no stars because there weren't a whole lot of fans & that by growing amateur pool you create the fanbase.


So, my question is can you call the APA a success if it was created to grow the pro game & the pros are no better off now (arguably worse) than when the APA first started.
 
Well first of all im not the right person to ask this question. My interest in pool is moderate. However Ive been in the APA for just over a year. I can tell you that at least in my area even some of the better players cant name no more than 2 Pro Players. Only a handful have been a Pro Match or ever saw one on TV. I think i say roughly 70% of players (myself to an extent) just see as a night out a few brews some wings an some pool. Not that there is anything wrong with that. Part of the reason I joined was to learn a little bit more about that game and i figured some competition might drive me to get a little bit better. Also my friend who got hooked on Pool (we started at same time) ask me to join a few time and I said what the heck. Especially since he got married (same time i joined) I saw our going out days been reduced(it has) this way we can still hang out......This is just my take and I mean no disrespect in anyway....I enjoy my team mates an while been at APA (the waiting and not playing) can be a little frustrating I enjoy the experience even though on a few times I said I would quit...
 
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TimKrazyMon said:
I see how big the APA has gotten (approx. 270K members) and what a great business it is & how it's brought pool to the masses. However, I was recently reading through one of their magazines and discovered that the driving force behind Terry & Larry starting the APA was to grow the pro game. Their argument at the time was that pool had no stars because there weren't a whole lot of fans & that by growing amateur pool you create the fanbase.


So, my question is can you call the APA a success if it was created to grow the pro game & the pros are no better off now (arguably worse) than when the APA first started.
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Of course it is a success - perhaps even an overwhelming one.

Things change - goals change. I know for sure they always wanted
to have a money making biz.

The idea of pumping up the pro game got tossed under the bus
rather early on.

Dale
 
Terry Bell and Larry Hubbard would say, hell yes!! Guaranteed to be the best idea these two men ever had.
 
Since the APA predates the WPBA, is a major sponsor of the WPBA, several female pro's got their pool playing start in the APA, and the ladies tour is arguably the most successful, my answer is.....


Yes, the APA has been successful, or doesn't women's pool count?

:cool:
 
DelaWho??? said:
Since the APA predates the WPBA, is a major sponsor of the WPBA, several female pro's got their pool playing start in the APA, and the ladies tour is arguably the most successful, my answer is.....


Yes, the APA has been successful, or doesn't women's pool count?

:cool:
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If memory serves, the WPBA came first, in 1976. The APA got started in 1979. Also, look at the state of the pro game. The men had an official Tour back then and the WPBA had a full slate of events. Now, the men have no tour & the WPBA is on suicide watch.

I can appreciate goals changing over time & obviously when you start a business goal #1 is make money. But building the pro game seems like it was goal #2 & 30+ years later that still hasn't come to fruition. I'm just not seeing how you can chalk one up in the win column here.
 
Agreed...the APA is a resounding success for Larry & Terry. Their families will be very comfortable for generations to come.

The LO's would also probably agree to a lesser extent.

The casual players would agree that they got the night out drinking & eating...just what they wanted.

The only loser is the avid player that is looking to compete & improve. That isn't in the APA model.

The (female) pro players benefit somewhat through the APA's sponsorship of events, but those are dwindling by the day. Some saw the light & took (bought) a LO position.

Sooo...it is a success, just not appealing to me. Since NO organized league exists that appeals to me...I started my own local 14.1 & 1P leagues.
 
The APA may not be helping the game to grow but it is sure helping keep it alive. Many pool rooms are being kept open due to APA league business. If it weren't for the APA, pool would be in a much worse state than it is today.
 
Rich R. said:
The APA may not be helping the game to grow but it is sure helping keep it alive. Many pool rooms are being kept open due to APA league business. If it weren't for the APA, pool would be in a much worse state than it is today.
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I see it a bit differently. I feel that if the APA didn't exist, the better leagues would flourish. The leagues that care about more than pumping dollars into Larry & Terry's pockets. The leagues that try to help the sport flourish. The leagues that give back a fair amount to it's players. The leagues that do not penalize it's members for improving. There's no doubt in my mind that POOL would be much better off without the APA! Having been an APA player, a team captain, and a bar owner, I've seen all angles of the APA and frankly it makes me sick!
 
Believe it or not it hasn't quite reached the level it wants to be at before it can continue on with bigger plans.

For the record. I bet those 2 are doing so happily lol.. i know the a couple LO's and one of them makes about 600 grand a year off 500 something teams or somewhere close to that.. been a while since we had the convo.

EDIT: Oh and our local LO, who i might add i wouldn't trust with a shovel behind my back, claims she makes about $5 an hour once all the paperwork and stuff is done and added up... tut tut i don't think sooo.
 
cuesmith said:
I see it a bit differently. I feel that if the APA didn't exist, the better leagues would flourish. The leagues that care about more than pumping dollars into Larry & Terry's pockets. The leagues that try to help the sport flourish. The leagues that give back a fair amount to it's players. The leagues that do not penalize it's members for improving. There's no doubt in my mind that POOL would be much better off without the APA! Having been an APA player, a team captain, and a bar owner, I've seen all angles of the APA and frankly it makes me sick!
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TAP TAP TAP

i aslo feel that all leagues should pay into a fund to support a por tour even something as small as 1 dollar per member per yr would sinch it up and if you play in 3 diffrent leagues owell it will cost you one less beer for a yr.

after that was done other sponsers would come and we could have a legit pro tour and really make professional pool a object of desire.

we should use the system thats already put in place to help the sport and make it stronger it could be spo easy. and i dont think anyone would care about 1 dollar.

if the APA were to do this then it would have deffenitly done what it was started for.
 
Judging from the math that I've seen on here, they are making money hand over fist. Heck yeah, they're a success.

Even though I'd never play in their league, I say more power to 'em.
 
There are lots of ways to see and answer this question, depending on your point of view. Yes, the APA has provided pool as a source of fun and recreation to more than a million players over the years and that's a good thing. Plus it has provided an income for league operators and made Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell wealthy men. To me they are two examples of pool players who found a way to do well in this sport, rather than trying to make it hitting balls into the hole. My hat is off to them for being creative and working hard to make the APA such a success.

There are many other leagues out there as well; BCAPL, ACA, TAP etc. Combined with the other independent leagues operating nationally and worldwide they keep millions of players involved in our sport. Those same players buy cues, cases, books, DVD's, magazines and everything else related to pool. This has to be a good thing too.

Personally I would never play in an APA league (careful Jay, never say never :smile:). It's just not my cup of tea. I had a chance to be a league operator many years ago and took a pass on that too. I preferred running a pool room, and making my money that way. But I hosted an APA league one or two nights a week in my room and even had my own team for a few years playing out of there. I was glad for the extra business on a couple of slow nights. They kept my two bar tables going for several hours, and bought drinks from the bar. A few of them even patronized my business on other nights, so it wasn't a bad experience for me.

I know there are problems with any handicapping system, and there always will be. That is why I won't play in a handicapped league. But I'm still glad that there is an APA (and all the other leagues too). That's a million people who play pool on a regular basis who otherwise might not.

By the way, that APA has put money back into professional pool, whether it be for men's events or women's. Maybe not like the BCAPL and Mark Griffin, but every little bit helps. I think if someone presented the right vehicle to them they would put more money into an event(s). I certainly wouldn't rule them out as a potential sponsor.
 
Very wise words Jay. There is no doubting the financial success of the APA & what they've done to keep pool rooms afloat. It just seems that they could be doing more. I just look at where the WPBA is now & can't help but wonder how much help in sponsorship they really give.

I guess the better question would be do Terry & Larry still care about growing the pro game or has the money changed them.
 
I watched a story last night on the discovery channel. A man in England was walking around with a metal detector. He went into a empty field just off the road. He discovered a load of gold that was buried in the field. It turned out to be old gold artifact worst an estimated 3.25 million dollars.

Just the fact that he got out there and made the discovery was truly amazing.

You might look at the people that started the APA the same way. They took a shot and found a bonanza. Maybe they weren't looking for a pot of gold but they sure found one. Good luck to them.

Could they do more for the PRO'S, sure they could but what have the PRO'S done to help themselves? I'll let you answer that question. I know they could have done a better job. That's all I"ll say.

The people running these leagues are very organized, At least where I'm playing and they do a great job getting people involved. That's all they need to do. It's up to the PRO'S to promote themselves.

Just a few of my thoughts folks.

_______________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com

This I do know. More amateurs have bought my book than PRO'S, and I thank all of you.
 
cuesmith said:
I see it a bit differently. I feel that if the APA didn't exist, the better leagues would flourish. The leagues that care about more than pumping dollars into Larry & Terry's pockets. The leagues that try to help the sport flourish. The leagues that give back a fair amount to it's players. The leagues that do not penalize it's members for improving. There's no doubt in my mind that POOL would be much better off without the APA! Having been an APA player, a team captain, and a bar owner, I've seen all angles of the APA and frankly it makes me sick!
Click to expand...



Trent said:
TAP TAP TAP

i aslo feel that all leagues should pay into a fund to support a por tour even something as small as 1 dollar per member per yr would sinch it up and if you play in 3 diffrent leagues owell it will cost you one less beer for a yr.

after that was done other sponsers would come and we could have a legit pro tour and really make professional pool a object of desire.

we should use the system thats already put in place to help the sport and make it stronger it could be spo easy. and i dont think anyone would care about 1 dollar.

if the APA were to do this then it would have deffenitly done what it was started for.
Click to expand...

Well, what are you guys waiting for? Start the league. If you build it they will come.

Everyone has a complaint about the "league and the league player" If you all have the answer, put it out there and make it happen. Otherewise don't begrudge the next guy making a living. No one is forcing anyone to play and pay.

Like I said, if you can do it better, bring it. I'll play.


:cool:
 
DelaWho??? said:
Well, what are you guys waiting for? Start the league. If you build it they will come.

Everyone has a complaint about the "league and the league player" If you all have the answer, put it out there and make it happen. Otherewise don't begrudge the next guy making a living. No one is forcing anyone to play and pay.

Like I said, if you can do it better, bring it. I'll play.


:cool:
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I did that once, but don't have the time and energy to devote to it again. Besides I'd rather spend my spare time letting the PEOPLE WHO HAVE ASKED know the truth about the APA! Do you have a problem with us answering the peoples questions about the APA? If so, don't read my posts or put me in your ignore list, but as long as people ask about the APA, I will share my experiences! I believe that's the purpose of this forum!
 
cuesmith said:
I see it a bit differently. I feel that if the APA didn't exist, the better leagues would flourish.
Click to expand...

What "better" leagues would those be? And if they are so much better, why would they need the APA to be gone for them to flourish? I would think the "better" league will always be the one that people stick with. Or do APA players sign a contract that they won't play in any of the "better" leagues?

My point is that if there is a better league out there, or if someone starts a better league, the APA will either change, or lose all their members. Players will always go where they think they have the best product.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
What "better" leagues would those be? And if they are so much better, why would they need the APA to be gone for them to flourish? I would think the "better" league will always be the one that people stick with. Or do APA players sign a contract that they won't play in any of the "better" leagues?

My point is that if there is a better league out there, or if someone starts a better league, the APA will either change, or lose all their members. Players will always go where they think they have the best product.

Steve
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Unfortunately, in a lot of areas, the APA is the only game in town. From everything I've read, the BCAPL blows them away unless you're a SL2 or 3. Then if you improve your team will have to split. I don't mean to keep hammering the APA, but if people ask, rather than let them go into it blindly, I try to make them aware of what it takes a lot of people a few years to realize. The APA does not explain their faults to people when they join up. Someone should!
 
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