Cost of a shaft

[Russell Cues]

I feel this is a very good subject. I don't know if some people are amazed that someone can build a good shaft and don't mind paying the price or maybe they feel if they are paying an absorbent price they are getting a better shaft or what. When a builder or mechanic makes a shaft I don't know if they have very limited equipment so it takes them forever to build and charge accordingly or they are paying way to much for raw materials or maybe they just believe they deserve to make a 100.00 an hour. A mechanic in a high economy such as New York or San Fransisco would of coarse have higher operating expenses so would need to charge accordingly.

I turn my own shaft blanks from scratch, make my own deco-rings and have the components to make 1000's of combinations. I also make my own ferrules. I have all the equipment needed to complete a shaft in a very timely fashion. This means that I can take a shaft blank, usually put on the correct deco-rings, ferrule, turn to final size, put on a tip and be ready for the finish in less than an 1.5 hours. I charge around 50.00 an hr. for shop time so this means around 75.00 plus materials and finish. I charge 125.00 for most shafts unless it has some complicated deco-ring that I must special make or if they want an up-graded tip. I believe this is fair. Some guys whom don't have the experience or equipment may have much more time invested in the shaft and they charge much more but I don't feel this is fair to the customer. Why should the customer pay for the mechanic's extra hours from limited experience or equipment.

Some mechanics or builders can charge a higher price because of their fame or known good work and high demand. This is called "supply and demand". In the early 90's Billy Stroud was getting 300.00 for a shaft when they could be had at most places for 50-100.00. The reputation can be worth a lot of money.

Dick

I had a customer come to me with a rather old joss west and asked about another shaft, I suggested he should talk with Bill Stroud as it will be a josswest shaft and keep more value etc. The shaft had a black ring with large maple checks, nothing real fancy, He was told because the cue was as old as it was that another shaft could be made at a cost of $500. As Dick stated, reputation can be worth alot. I cant fault a maker that can demand that kind of money for a shaft, we all would like to get top dollar for our work as most makers take pride in what they do and turn out quality work.

The cue I was speaking about had an OLD growth shaft on it, the damn thing was as stiff as a baseball bat. That was partly the reason for the higher cost on that particular shaft I would guess.

 

[Mr Hoppe]

Maybe there were some things that were said in another thread on this that I am missing here, but I find it very odd that a cue maker is getting scolded by his peers for his customer's willingness to pay more for what they perceive as quality materials and workmanship.

If the man gets $1,000 for a shaft, I say good for him. In a free market, if his customers deem his products are worth that price, then they will continue to pay it. If they don't, then he will get no customers until the price comes down to a level that they find reasonable. The question of what a person's products are worth is decided by his paying customers, not by his peers.

BTW, I think SW is getting about $300 for a shaft now. Shall we attack them next?

 

[QMAKER]

Shaft prices

For an extra shaft I charge $125. Ivory ferrules and some tips are extra.
Choice of shaft material is: maple, laminated maple, purple heart and oak.
I only make shafts for my cues.

 

[qbilder]

Maybe there were some things that were said in another thread on this that I am missing here, but I find it very odd that a cue maker is getting scolded by his peers for his customer's willingness to pay more for what they perceive as quality materials and workmanship.

If the man gets $1,000 for a shaft, I say good for him. In a free market, if his customers deem his products are worth that price, then they will continue to pay it. If they don't, then he will get no customers until the price comes down to a level that they find reasonable. The question of what a person's products are worth is decided by his paying customers, not by his peers.

BTW, I think SW is getting about $300 for a shaft now. Shall we attack them next?

You can't be serious. You have been a pretty smart guy & have seen things pretty clearly. But this time I think you might want to open your eyes a little wider. This guy is not doing anything differently than Eddie Wheat or Jeff Eason did. Just like with those guys, it's not the price he charges or the quality of his work that alienates him from the rest. It's his approach. He is reverting to belittling other builders' work in order to promote his. If that's not bad enough, he does it openly in public and then argues & bashes those who disagree with his BS. That's why he's catching flak. And you are defending him?

Regardless, this thread was intended to help me put things into perspective in the way of having a general consensus of shaft costs. It was for my personal purpose. The bickering & self promotional BS wasn't asked for.

 

[LGSM3]

from a buyers standpoint

On the subject, reputation "of course that meaning alot of things" would play the most important role. With that being said, i feel that your price is fair but somewhat underpriced. If i had no prior knowledge of your prices, and had to guess, i would say that 250-300 was the price.

150-200 for additional shafts may be a good # to use when building shafts at the same time for a new cue or custom order

 

[DaveK]

Mr. Neighbors,
Do you claim to be a physics genius? Or did you just figure it all out working with Sherm. How many ferrule-less cues have you made. You say "you are better off not to use a ferrule at all". Wow that's funny, why do so many cue makers use them? I'll tell you why. The shaft will splinter apart as soon as the tip gets a little low. Tried it several times back in 2002 and 2003. Just curious, how much you know about Refinishing. Maybe we can go head to toe on that subject since I have a custom auto body shop established in 1990. Ya you want to see articles and some of the hot rods I did for Truckin Magazine. Try march of 1993. Just google John Barioni and you might learn that I have been in papers for my painting skills. Coker cues even spent some time at my shop in Atwater back in 1998. Tom and Grady both. You want to bet on refinishing skills for cues. I'll give you the 7 out Bro when it come to refinishing!!!! You keep building your cues the way you do and I'll keep building mine the way I do.

If I may, a suggestion to help out your business :

http://www.amazon.ca/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650

Best Regards,

Dave

 

[Mr Hoppe]

You can't be serious. You have been a pretty smart guy & have seen things pretty clearly. But this time I think you might want to open your eyes a little wider. This guy is not doing anything differently than Eddie Wheat or Jeff Eason did. Just like with those guys, it's not the price he charges or the quality of his work that alienates him from the rest. It's his approach. He is reverting to belittling other builders' work in order to promote his. If that's not bad enough, he does it openly in public and then argues & bashes those who disagree with his BS. That's why he's catching flak. And you are defending him?

Regardless, this thread was intended to help me put things into perspective in the way of having a general consensus of shaft costs. It was for my personal purpose. The bickering & self promotional BS wasn't asked for.

Apparently these were things that were said and done in other threads that I missed. My reply was based purely on information found in this thread. I'm going to get some popcorn. Let the pi$$ing contest BEGIN! :grin:

 

[hangemhigh]

If I may, a suggestion to help out your business :

http://www.amazon.ca/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650

Best Regards,

Dave

I listened to Warren Buffet give this book and the DC course a lot of praise and kudos for his success.

 

[qbilder]

Apparently these were things that were said and done in other threads that I missed. My reply was based purely on information found in this thread. I'm going to get some popcorn. Let the pi$$ing contest BEGIN! :grin:

LOL yeah, get a big bag. He's pisses in some folks' wheaties already.......lol i said wheaties, no pun intended

 

[mdavis228]

I have several ferrule-less shafts from Cash cues, and they're very high quality & performance. I also use OB1's, and am very happy there, too. Do they cost a bit more? Yes. But I don't mind paying a premium for a premium product that is of superior quality & performs to my liking. That doesn't mean I'll stand for getting robbed.
Mr Hoppe - you should go to the main forum & catch up on the background here. It's deplorable.
Here's a guy trying to make his light shine brighter by trying to put a basket over the shining, time tested, and market seasoned light of some widely respected makers.
I said it in that other thread... If you feel a need to brow beat others into seeing the magic in your methods, then you're likely causing more trouble than you are gaining friends - or perspective.
My opinion... The best thing Mr Barioni could do right now is meld into the woodwork for a while, pray he hasn't done too much damage to his rep, and let his magic speak for itself.
Us poor dumb old boys just might be sharp enough to recognize genius if it jumps up...

 

[scdiveteam]

Observation:

The general public or player does not understand all of the time work that goes into putting out a great pool shaft. I must educate the customer to get them to understand why a shaft starts at $ 150.00 and goes up from there if you have to match someone else's decor rings. If they don't agree and want cheap, I say good luck.

Selling shafts at low prices is not worth your time or effort.

Rick

 

[Danktrees]

I do believe this pertains to me. What I sale with my cues are known to the industry as Performance shafts. Preditor, OB, McDermott and a few others all sale low deflection performance shafts. The retail on these shafts are from $225 to $275. The public is paying for performance. I agree ring work increeses the value. The more time that goes into it raises the price. A regular run of the mill deflecting shaft usually goes for $150. Ivory ferrule and joint adds to the cost. Atlas sales great shafts in final stage for $21.00. I am sure most of you already know this.

i am not a cuebuilder but this post really irritates me to the point where i feel that i have to make a comment on it.

to compare pricing of your own shafts to production LD shafts is flawed. These shafts cost what they cost because companies such as predator, ob etc. have to charge more in order to make sure that their retailers get paid too. if they were just selling them directly the price would be a lot lower. the fact that they have to ship the shafts to their retailers and then be able to make money for their retailers on each shaft sold is what adds so much to the price. so yea they might get 225 for a 314 shaft, but some of that goes to the retailer which is something that you dont have to deal with so it's not something u should charge for.

if u look at dealer pricing on cues and shafts, u'll notice that the price is a lot lower. whereas a cue may retail for 700, the store that's selling it would have got it from that production company for 400-475.

so if u want to charge 225 for your shafts that's fine but dont use the shafts from those companies as justification since they operate under a completely different retail scheme than you do.

 

[qbilder]

i am not a cuebuilder but this post really irritates me to the point where i feel that i have to make a comment on it.

to compare pricing of your own shafts to production LD shafts is flawed. These shafts cost what they cost because companies such as predator, ob etc. have to charge more in order to make sure that their retailers get paid too. if they were just selling them directly the price would be a lot lower. the fact that they have to ship the shafts to their retailers and then be able to make money for their retailers on each shaft sold is what adds so much to the price. so yea they might get 225 for a 314 shaft, but some of that goes to the retailer which is something that you dont have to deal with so it's not something u should charge for.

if u look at dealer pricing on cues and shafts, u'll notice that the price is a lot lower. whereas a cue may retail for 700, the store that's selling it would have got it from that production company for 400-475.

so if u want to charge 225 for your shafts that's fine but dont use the shafts from those companies as justification since they operate under a completely different retail scheme than you do.

They also have the cost of legitimate advertising in magazines, tournament sponsorship, player sponsorship, etc. That's expensive.

 

[WilleeCue]

They also have the cost of legitimate advertising in magazines, tournament sponsorship, player sponsorship, etc. That's expensive.

So the cost of a shaft should be based on your need for the money?

 

[WilleeCue]

Am I that underpriced at $90 with matching ringwork? I need to adjust my prices.....

With the quality of your work and the support you offer ... you ARE underpriced.

 

[Barioni Cues]

You can't be serious. You have been a pretty smart guy & have seen things pretty clearly. But this time I think you might want to open your eyes a little wider. This guy is not doing anything differently than Eddie Wheat or Jeff Eason did. Just like with those guys, it's not the price he charges or the quality of his work that alienates him from the rest. It's his approach. He is reverting to belittling other builders' work in order to promote his. If that's not bad enough, he does it openly in public and then argues & bashes those who disagree with his BS. That's why he's catching flak. And you are defending him?

Regardless, this thread was intended to help me put things into perspective in the way of having a general consensus of shaft costs. It was for my personal purpose. The bickering & self promotional BS wasn't asked for.

I am done with the pissing contest. Think what you want. I really don't care. I don't have to prove myself to you. My customers and all that know me are aware of my work. You need references? I don't know who or what Eddie Wheat or Jeff Eason did but My name is John Barioni with barioni cues. And until you have hit with one of my cue you have no business putting me in their class. My work speaks for itself. I have no unsatisfied customers. And non of them feel like they got ripped off. If they did I would refund their money. I have been a business man for about 20 years now. Word of mouth is the best advertisement. (if you put out a quality product). You state that I am reverting to belittling other builders' work in order to promote mine. Where have I done this. When I first came on I did not wolf at anyone. It was the other way around. I am simply punching back. I feel it is easy to make a pretty cue. It's a little harder to make one that truly gives an advantage to pocketing balls. A lot of research is involved. Down here where I am from, the testing is done with real players. 100 speed and above. For them this crap your implying is a joke. It makes you look bad and sound like you don't know what your talking about. You may be known on AZ billiards but you are mot know here. I am! I am not a newb as some put it. I started repairing cues back in 1997. Then in 2003 my first cue was completed and sold. It must have been something for Kim Davenports friend and at one time stake horse Dave Ferroni to offer a grand for it. Ya $1000.00 for the first cue. Well guess what. The guy who owns it (Parish B.) did not sale it. He still has it today. This all went down at Ferron's Pool hall in Merced. A bunch of people heard it so if this was BS People would know. Needless to say Dave Bought a cue from Me. He still has it today. Dave is regarded to not only being a successful room owner but a player and a high stakes gambler. I know you don't know me like they do down here. It was just less than a year ago that I decided to expand. I have over 150,000 invested in tools and equipment. I have 5 lathes. One is a full blown Machinist lathe. I make and cut my own threads on this lathe. I started machining on street rods 26 years ago way before I ever thought about cues. I have had a MFG business since 1997. We make water racks that get sent all over as well as wine racks for the whole valley. We also manufacture pool table parts. So don't compare me with Mr. Wheat or Mr. Eason. And by the way, after all the crap you talked on this forum, If you think I am like them talking BS I challenge you! You build a cue and I will build a cue. We will send them both together all over the world for pool player and cue builders to inspect and play with. Then we can do a poll and see which one shines. I am that confident.

 

[hangemhigh]

Out of all the qualities need here, a thick skin may be the most important.

 

[Barioni Cues]

i am not a cuebuilder but this post really irritates me to the point where i feel that i have to make a comment on it.

to compare pricing of your own shafts to production LD shafts is flawed. These shafts cost what they cost because companies such as predator, ob etc. have to charge more in order to make sure that their retailers get paid too. if they were just selling them directly the price would be a lot lower. the fact that they have to ship the shafts to their retailers and then be able to make money for their retailers on each shaft sold is what adds so much to the price. so yea they might get 225 for a 314 shaft, but some of that goes to the retailer which is something that you dont have to deal with so it's not something u should charge for.

if u look at dealer pricing on cues and shafts, u'll notice that the price is a lot lower. whereas a cue may retail for 700, the store that's selling it would have got it from that production company for 400-475.

so if u want to charge 225 for your shafts that's fine but dont use the shafts from those companies as justification since they operate under a completely different retail scheme than you do.

Ever think maybe I have a retailer. Well I do. Not a big one like Muellers but I have small shops and players that go to tournament and sale my cues. Second if I was to charge less for sailing direct as you say I should do then why would any one go to a retailer to buy my product. You would never get a big retailer would you. Every one would want to buy direct. And lets consider the cost of doing business. Bigger cities charge more for space,business license, spray booth permits and so forth. Go learn about business and running and owning them before posting ridicules comment like this.

 

[DaveK]

I am done with the pissing contest. Think what you want. I really don't care. I don't have to prove myself to you. My customers and all that know me are aware of my work. You need references? I don't know who or what Eddie Wheat or Jeff Eason did but My name is John Barioni with barioni cues. And until you have hit with one of my cue you have no business putting me in their class. My work speaks for itself. I have no unsatisfied customers. And non of them feel like they got ripped off. If they did I would refund their money. I have been a business man for about 20 years now. Word of mouth is the best advertisement. (if you put out a quality product). You state that I am reverting to belittling other builders' work in order to promote mine. Where have I done this. When I first came on I did not wolf at anyone. It was the other way around. I am simply punching back. I feel it is easy to make a pretty cue. It's a little harder to make one that truly gives an advantage to pocketing balls. A lot of research is involved. Down here where I am from, the testing is done with real players. 100 speed and above. For them this crap your implying is a joke. It makes you look bad and sound like you don't know what your talking about. You may be known on AZ billiards but you are mot know here. I am! I am not a newb as some put it. I started repairing cues back in 1997. Then in 2003 my first cue was completed and sold. It must have been something for Kim Davenports friend and at one time stake horse Dave Ferroni to offer a grand for it. Ya $1000.00 for the first cue. Well guess what. The guy who owns it (Parish B.) did not sale it. He still has it today. This all went down at Ferron's Pool hall in Merced. A bunch of people heard it so if this was BS People would know. Needless to say Dave Bought a cue from Me. He still has it today. Dave is regarded to not only being a successful room owner but a player and a high stakes gambler. I know you don't know me like they do down here. It was just less than a year ago that I decided to expand. I have over 150,000 invested in tools and equipment. I have 5 lathes. One is a full blown Machinist lathe. I make and cut my own threads on this lathe. I started machining on street rods 26 years ago way before I ever thought about cues. I have had a MFG business since 1997. We make water racks that get sent all over as well as wine racks for the whole valley. We also manufacture pool table parts. So don't compare me with Mr. Wheat or Mr. Eason. And by the way, after all the crap you talked on this forum, If you think I am like them talking BS I challenge you! You build a cue and I will build a cue. We will send them both together all over the world for pool player and cue builders to inspect and play with. Then we can do a poll and see which one shines. I am that confident.

The trouble is that your posts are very Wheatish. That would be why people are comparing your APPROACH to Ed Wheats APROACH. Please note that I did not compare cues, I compared APPROACH (to the market that is).

Dave <-- not a cuemaker but also has a "full blown Machinist lathe" and a half-blown mill and a quarter-blown shaper (hey, it's about the smallest made, but I don't need more than a 7" stroke :wink: )

 

[qbilder]

So the cost of a shaft should be based on your need for the money?

Don't mistake my words as justification for high prices. Reasons are reasons regardless if it's justified or not. Predator shafts wouldn't sell if they didn't have a massive advertising effort. That costs a lot of money and therefore they have to charge accordingly. You can't spend $100 on advertising to sell $75 worth of product or else you sink. Economics 101.