How Much Money Would it Take?

[Fast Lenny]

After seeing the dollar thread I was curious as to how much money it would take to have a successful pro tour with all pro playing making a living. I am not sure how many pros we have roaming the US but I would guess 200-300, maybe someone could give us a solid number.

I think you would have to figure out how many pros there are and times that by a certain number for income. Do not make any mistake about, no one would be getting a salary, they would have to earn it. Every player in a tournament would get some money back and the top players would do very well, most importantly the money would be there.

I am curious as to a breakdown, a formula on how you get to your number. I would include advertising cost for the tour along with how many tournaments and monies to be payed out. I would be guessing the number is over 10-15 million or so which is a large number but a drop in the bucket in the sports world.

I have thought a good deal about the past and pools golden era, there were many reasons why pool did well then. Bigger sports that we see today were not prevalent then as they have been for awhile now, pool is really not a mass spectator sport either. We also have more players now which with more pros makes it harder to support them. If you look back on when the game was in the papers and it was a big deal we had less then 25 pros I am guessing playing 6-8 man round robins and such.

The game was different then and we just have so many pros and the money just has not grown because of the no big name sponsors who really do not see the value in advertising with pool. I cannot blame a big company from coming on board because of the value per dollar but then again could a big company buy a sport essentially at a bargain price. They could possibly push it on TV and do something with it along with many different avenues.

I know all business when spending advertising dollars look at numbers of people they are getting to. They know when they spend 2-3 million on reaching 90 million viewers during the Super Bowl they are getting good value for the money I am guessing, pool would not reach 90 million people in a year ever so spending millions on it is just not viable from that perspective.

I am interested in hearing some breakdowns on how much money it would take to get a pro tour going where the players could make a living. I know Kevin Trudeau had a plan and it failed because of some gambling laws from what I heard. I know we all bashed him but he tried and lost money doing it, he did not make money off his failed venture. Perhaps he thought as I said above he could own a sport almost for very cheap and push his products along with whatever else. Figuring a way to make money as a businessman in something like pool was not going to happen even for him, could someone like Trump do it. :grin:

 

[Black-Balled]

After seeing the dollar thread I was curious as to how much money it would take to have a successful pro tour with all pro playing making a living.... :grin:

They are gonna come crawling out of the woodwork!

 

[Fast Lenny]

They are gonna come crawling out of the woodwork!

Your very right about that but I think you would have to have a limit on the number of players most likely to make it really work along with a ranking system.

 

[ajuarbe]

I think you would need a series of tournaments with maybe a $500 entry fee. People would have to pre-register and pay and the tournament would only take place once a certain number of entries were achieved. This would have to happen in several states (all if possible plus internationally as well). It would take a lot of organizing, but it could be done. The purse for winning these tournaments would be for a shot at an exclusive pro tour that was streamed on the internet and watched on ESPN or another network. The winners of these tournaments would have to be narrowed down to the top 64 and these national try outs so to speak would have to happen once a year before the next tour started. Players could be paid around $6000 or $7000 a month salary, plus whatever purses they won at the tour stops which wouldn't be huge, but would supplement what they already get as a salary. Of course these players would start getting sponsors which would further supplement their income. I believe a lot of aspiring pool players would be willing to pay a $500 entry fee for a shot at playing in an exclusive pro tour that would be televised and would earn them a minimum salary of 72k to 84k not to mention any possible tour wins and sponsors.

Like any business this would probably be a business that would break even at first and for the first few years any profits would have to be put back into the business but with potential sponsors and renewed interest it could be very profitable in a few years time and be great for the sport of pool.

 

[MitchAlsup]

After seeing the dollar thread I was curious as to how much money it would take to have a successful pro tour with all pro playing making a living. I am not sure how many pros we have roaming the US but I would guess 200-300, maybe someone could give us a solid number.

Lets say that there are 200 pros in this country.
Let us then postulate that it takes $100K/yr in order to qualify as a good livinig {what with travel expensies and all}.

The total purse over the year needs to be 200*100K or $20M. And the payout schedule has to go down to at least top-50 players/turney.

I have thought a good deal about the past and pools golden era, there were many reasons why pool did well then.

Golden era, day's wage was $1.00.....25% unemployment means lots of time to hang around pool halls.....

The game was different then and we just have so many pros and the money just has not grown because of the no big name sponsors who really do not see the value in advertising with pool.

I suspect the "average" pool player spends about $50/yr on pool--that is has his own home table in lousy condition and plays for 15 minutes 3 times a month. You have to get to the average league player to see any real revenue in pool, and they represent maybe 1% of pool players.

I am interested in hearing some breakdowns on how much money it would take to get a pro tour going where the players could make a living.

The #200 PGA golfer has taken home $119K this year (already)
The #150 PGA golfer has taken home $399K
The #100 PGA golfer has taken home $816K
The ##50 PGA golfer has taken home $1,488K
The ###1 PGA golfer has taken home $4,753K

You could get a pro pool tour running well for 1/4 of that kind of money, mayb 1/8 of that, but not a whole lot less.

 

[TATE]

After seeing the dollar thread I was curious as to how much money it would take to have a successful pro tour with all pro playing making a living. I am not sure how many pros we have roaming the US but I would guess 200-300, maybe someone could give us a solid number.

I think you would have to figure out how many pros there are and times that by a certain number for income. Do not make any mistake about, no one would be getting a salary, they would have to earn it. Every player in a tournament would get some money back and the top players would do very well, most importantly the money would be there.

I am curious as to a breakdown, a formula on how you get to your number. I would include advertising cost for the tour along with how many tournaments and monies to be payed out. I would be guessing the number is over 10-15 million or so which is a large number but a drop in the bucket in the sports world.

I have thought a good deal about the past and pools golden era, there were many reasons why pool did well then. Bigger sports that we see today were not prevalent then as they have been for awhile now, pool is really not a mass spectator sport either. We also have more players now which with more pros makes it harder to support them. If you look back on when the game was in the papers and it was a big deal we had less then 25 pros I am guessing playing 6-8 man round robins and such.

The game was different then and we just have so many pros and the money just has not grown because of the no big name sponsors who really do not see the value in advertising with pool. I cannot blame a big company from coming on board because of the value per dollar but then again could a big company buy a sport essentially at a bargain price. They could possibly push it on TV and do something with it along with many different avenues.

I know all business when spending advertising dollars look at numbers of people they are getting to. They know when they spend 2-3 million on reaching 90 million viewers during the Super Bowl they are getting good value for the money I am guessing, pool would not reach 90 million people in a year ever so spending millions on it is just not viable from that perspective.

I am interested in hearing some breakdowns on how much money it would take to get a pro tour going where the players could make a living. I know Kevin Trudeau had a plan and it failed because of some gambling laws from what I heard. I know we all bashed him but he tried and lost money doing it, he did not make money off his failed venture. Perhaps he thought as I said above he could own a sport almost for very cheap and push his products along with whatever else. Figuring a way to make money as a businessman in something like pool was not going to happen even for him, could someone like Trump do it. :grin:

Sure. A "living" would be about $75K per player average, 25K of which would go to travel expenses.

If you had an "exempt tour" of 75 traveling pros and alternates. and room for 25 invitational (for 100 enries), the prize fund would have to be 75X 100 - or 7.5 million annually. Of course, some will win more but most or all places would have to be paid. Add another million or so for overhead and administartion and advertising. Probably a guaranteed cash commitment of 8 to 9 million would launch a nice one.

From that there would be receipts as well, entry fees, gate receipts, television money, qualifiers, etc. Probably a couple of million could be recouped.

The perfect sponsors would be a national sports bar chain, beer company, a liquor company and possibly (hate to say it) tobacco company.

One way it could be pulled off would be if a sports bar, recreational place like Dave and Buster's was the main sponsor. They could leverage their alcohol suppliers to participate too. If Hooter's was looking for something to spiff up their places, they would be a good sponsor too. Have their local waitresses and food/drinks served up at the tourney and you have something.

Chris

 

[Jason Robichaud]

I think the PGA format would be a good structure for pool 128 man fields with X number of players getting tour cards for next season. Everyone else, regional events would make a good qualifying school.

Prize Money - To win 1 event you should make a decent yearly wage, say $100,000. To finish top 64 you should get a decent weekly wage, say $2000. Play weekly events for 9 months out of the year hold 4 major events with double prize money.

This would be a great pro tour.

The 3 month off season, these guys would be going to local rooms promoting pool, radio shows, local TV, newspapers etc.. If they are making the money, they need to promote the game (not gambling what they win)

 

[Fast Lenny]

Some really good ideas here guys for sure and I think a big business would be interested in something like this mainly for advertising usage and buying something fairly cheap. Pool is played by tens of millions of people in the US alone and right now someone could own pro pool in the US fairly cheap. I am unsure of a realistic number of people playing pool in the US or the world, perhaps someone knows that answer, I got several when searching.

There have been sport organizations out there that started of cheaply and have grown tremendously with the right people behind it. I know that the players would have to do their part, I like the idea of the 3 months down time of them doing promotional things also. I am not sure if those players who played in something like this would have to be tied down exclusively or would they be able to play in the other major events we have now, IMO it would be nice to see those events still grow and prosper along with this.

Its kind of fun day dreaming, who knows, maybe the right person will come along and propose this to a company and make it a reality, hopefully in our lifetime.

 

[cheapcues.com]

Fun little thought experiment.

You could have a qualifying tournament at the beginning of the year. $1000 entry fee for the chance to be one of 64 fully exempt players. Maybe 500 people would try if the payoff for being fully exempt was good enough? That would be $500K in revenue to get it started.

Would need a commish and staff- say a $250K per year expense.

Assume the tour has 25 stops per year so you would have $10K per stop from that.

Assume that each stop has a location willing to host the tourney for free and volunteers to ref, and help run the event.

Have a local qualifying tournament for each stop. Say 250 people trying for 64 spots (plus the 64 exempt makes 128). If each of those 250 pays $300 to try to qualify that's $75K.

Assume another $35K from sponsors- maybe a big sponsor for the whole tour, some local sponsors, fees paid by exibitors, etc.

Add $10K from the $250K for the beginnig of the year qualifier and you have $120K purse for each tournament, top 64 get paid something, probably $20K to the winner, $10K 2nd, $5K 3/4 down to $1K for 33/64

With 25 opportunites the top players would proably make $200K plus and the average earnings for the exempt players would be about $40K assuming they cash often.

The key: the exempt players would be obligated to play most events, and be available for appearances, sign autographs, and be generally nice ladies and gentlemen. This would be the appeal for the sponsors.

 

[Marie's husband]

Some really good ideas here guys for sure and I think a big business would be interested in something like this mainly for advertising usage and buying something fairly cheap. Pool is played by tens of millions of people in the US alone and right now someone could own pro pool in the US fairly cheap. I am unsure of a realistic number of people playing pool in the US or the world, perhaps someone knows that answer, I got several when searching.

There have been sport organizations out there that started of cheaply and have grown tremendously with the right people behind it. I know that the players would have to do their part, I like the idea of the 3 months down time of them doing promotional things also. I am not sure if those players who played in something like this would have to be tied down exclusively or would they be able to play in the other major events we have now, IMO it would be nice to see those events still grow and prosper along with this.

Its kind of fun day dreaming, who knows, maybe the right person will come along and propose this to a company and make it a reality, hopefully in our lifetime.

I have no clue as to how many pool players there are in the US, but in 2008 out of all the pool players in the US and international players there were only 140 designated as pro players by the IPT. Now I do know that it was the first and only year for that, but I would think they would have many more players than just that. They did have qualifiers tourny's for a few of there events and those tourny's usually wouldnt even come close to having 32 players.

As for my recommendation, I would have it set up just like the PGA Qschool. All tourny's and qualifiers would be a modified round robin set up. As for the money, that is all depending on participation and sponsorship.

http://www.pgatour.com/qschool/index.html
information is located on the left side under the first stage, second stage, final stage links.

It is fun just thinking/dreaming about the "what if" and I do think that you brought up the small organization growing huge. I am thinking that one of those east coast tours is an example of a chance of a small organization growing huge. I am not going to name any specific, but there are some out there that really do a well job promoting.

 

[oldzilla]

Definatly some very very good thinking going on here !

Keep it going.

:yes::yes::yes:

 

[Black-Balled]

Sounds a little like too much work.

I thought the whole chioce to play the game for a living was based on the premise that work was to be avoided...?

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Dragon Promotions could handle all the scheduling and provide the framework for the tournaments.

Johnny Archer's new Player org can provide the top ranked 32 players for seeding purposes.

Maybe Dragon Promotions could also double as the govering body.

The Economic picture is currently "Bleek" for any type of new venture that has to rely on pocket billiards to make money or break even.

No sponsers, no pirymid scheme to raise the money... pool needs a generous benifactor.

There there has to be a business plan. Maybe Dragon can do that also.

 

[Black-Balled]

It would be interesting to have Dragon's input on its efforts to raise the profile of pool and, in turn, provide a realistic income to pro players.

Another issue is the $:grin-square:. IIRC, one of Dragon's intention was to guarantee prize funds, something the were unable (unwilling?) to do.

 

[JAM]

Dragon Promotions could handle all the scheduling and provide the framework for the tournaments.

Johnny Archer's new Player org can provide the top ranked 32 players for seeding purposes.

Maybe Dragon Promotions could also double as the govering body.

The Economic picture is currently "Bleek" for any type of new venture that has to rely on pocket billiards to make money or break even.

No sponsers, no pirymid scheme to raise the money... pool needs a generous benifactor.

There there has to be a business plan. Maybe Dragon can do that also.

Isn't the head of Dragon the same person who started the UPA, the then-governing body of professional pool for men?

Pool at one time did have a generous benefactor by the name of Kevin Trudeau. He invested MILLIONS, multiple MILLIONS of dollars, and the tour failed. He still is the punching bag of some pool peeps today. If he had included them in his vision, of course, put a little cheesenips in their pockets, maybe they would be singing a different tune, just like the BCA Hall of Famers who each pockted 30 large just for showing on in Orlando for a few days, to include getting 3 byes in the tournament. And let's not forget how much Efren, Bustie, Thorsten, Rodney and others did end up receiving. Bustamante told me at the King of the Hill tournament in Orlando that his third-place prize monies was the most money he had ever won in his life at one event.

Business plan needs to be made by a non-pool player, IMO. The professional organization needs to be transparent. The organization needs to represent ALL members and not the super stars who want to be up front and center at all times, receiving all the royalties, while the rest of the plebians fight over leftover crumbs.

Seeding today is a joke. It is a flawed system, since only a few of today's players can afford to attend high-profile events tp even qualify to be seeded. Of course, they all want the seeding system to continue. Pool has become a class system: those who are sponsored and those who are not.

 

[TATE]

Dragon Promotions could handle all the scheduling and provide the framework for the tournaments.

Johnny Archer's new Player org can provide the top ranked 32 players for seeding purposes.

Maybe Dragon Promotions could also double as the govering body.

The Economic picture is currently "Bleek" for any type of new venture that has to rely on pocket billiards to make money or break even.

No sponsers, no pirymid scheme to raise the money... pool needs a generous benifactor.

There there has to be a business plan. Maybe Dragon can do that also.

Putting together the tour is easy, finding the money to back it isn't. It has to be an investment to the sponsors and it has to make sense.

Pool is an interesting opportunity for businesses that I don't think has been properly exploited. I travel a lot to many foreign locations, and when a nice place has a pool table, people play on it. That keeps them in the bar ordering drinks, creates a certain look and feel and helps create a vibrant atmosphere.

A tour would have to be tailored to attract cetain businesses who want to attract the type of people who play pool. And the tour would have to deliver.

I think it's do-able. The right idea just hasn't been found yet.


Chris

 

[CrownCityCorey]

After seeing the dollar thread I was curious as to how much money it would take to have a successful pro tour with all pro playing making a living. I am not sure how many pros we have roaming the US but I would guess 200-300, maybe someone could give us a solid number.

I think you would have to figure out how many pros there are and times that by a certain number for income. Do not make any mistake about, no one would be getting a salary, they would have to earn it. Every player in a tournament would get some money back and the top players would do very well, most importantly the money would be there.

I am curious as to a breakdown, a formula on how you get to your number. I would include advertising cost for the tour along with how many tournaments and monies to be payed out. I would be guessing the number is over 10-15 million or so which is a large number but a drop in the bucket in the sports world.

I have thought a good deal about the past and pools golden era, there were many reasons why pool did well then. Bigger sports that we see today were not prevalent then as they have been for awhile now, pool is really not a mass spectator sport either. We also have more players now which with more pros makes it harder to support them. If you look back on when the game was in the papers and it was a big deal we had less then 25 pros I am guessing playing 6-8 man round robins and such.

The game was different then and we just have so many pros and the money just has not grown because of the no big name sponsors who really do not see the value in advertising with pool. I cannot blame a big company from coming on board because of the value per dollar but then again could a big company buy a sport essentially at a bargain price. They could possibly push it on TV and do something with it along with many different avenues.

I know all business when spending advertising dollars look at numbers of people they are getting to. They know when they spend 2-3 million on reaching 90 million viewers during the Super Bowl they are getting good value for the money I am guessing, pool would not reach 90 million people in a year ever so spending millions on it is just not viable from that perspective.

I am interested in hearing some breakdowns on how much money it would take to get a pro tour going where the players could make a living. I know Kevin Trudeau had a plan and it failed because of some gambling laws from what I heard. I know we all bashed him but he tried and lost money doing it, he did not make money off his failed venture. Perhaps he thought as I said above he could own a sport almost for very cheap and push his products along with whatever else. Figuring a way to make money as a businessman in something like pool was not going to happen even for him, could someone like Trump do it. :grin:

I know of a solid business plan for an American Pro Tour that needs five million to fund it...

If someone on these forums has the dough... PM me and let's get the show on the road!

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Isn't the head of Dragon the same person who started the UPA, the then-governing body of professional pool for men?

Yes Dragon was also founded by the same person that founded the failed UPA.

Of course, they all want the seeding system to continue. Pool has become a class system: those who are sponsored and those who are not.

I should have made it clear that I was posting this entirely

TOUNGE in CHEEK

IMO, currently there isn't any organization with the talent to be able to fulfill the needs (stated by the OP) of a PRO Tour. There just isn't any ONE person or org that everyone even come's close to TRUSTING.

 

[JAM]

I should have made it clear that I was posting this entirely

TOUNGE in CHEEK

IMO, currently there isn't any organization with the talent to be able to fulfill the needs (stated by the OP) of a PRO Tour. There just isn't any ONE person or org that everyone even come's close to TRUSTING.

Ah, I see.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that I may just have to accept pool as a recreational game, much like Scrabble, croquet, and badminton. It is fun to play when you have company over, if you have a home table, and going to the pool room today, at least in my area, is not much different than going to a bar. I mean, if you like to go to bars, then that's okay, but I don't drink. I like pool, but I don't drink.

Gone are the days with pool rooms that serve no alcohol, mainly because they can't afford to stay afloat without it, but those are my kind of neighborhood hangouts that I miss. Each time I walked in, it felt like I was walking in the home of an old friend. I was comfortable. I knew everybody there, and they knew me. It was a clubhouse of sorts. I fear this kind of environment is a thing of the past, only to be remembered in memoirs of those who experienced it. It seemed like there were more pro players back then than there are today. Is it because there were more pool rooms? I mean "real" pool rooms and not bars?

If Kevin Trudeau with all the monetary backing couldn't get a professional tour going, I just find it difficult to see anybody else doing it. His plan would have worked if he had not set the bar so high for the payouts. It might still be happening today, in fact. It was doomed from the start.

If the league system(s) can come up with a way to promote professional pool, which I thought was the mission of the APA at its origin, then it might have a shot. This would cultivate aspiring pros. Competition from the bottom up, giving them something to reach for. But, sadly, there are some people, at least in American pool culture, that have a low opinion of professional players. There are some good pro players who do give back, but it seems like their contributions go unnoticed.

Well, I just throw in my small change into the subject. Nothing I say matters. I'm a mere railbird who is a dreamer. :grin-square:

 

[Marie's husband]

I should have made it clear that I was posting this entirely

TOUNGE in CHEEK

IMO, currently there isn't any organization with the talent to be able to fulfill the needs (stated by the OP) of a PRO Tour. There just isn't any ONE person or org that everyone even come's close to TRUSTING.

IMHO by doing some number crunching between leagues and there payouts from regional and national tournaments. I came up with the BCAPL giving out the highest percentage of money back to the players and it didnt look like they were trying to be millionaires from league players. So with that being said, I would trust the BCAPL to start up/organize/run a pro tour within the US. Now I dont know if they have the manpower within the headquarters and dont even know if they have even thought about it. I think that they already have the networking capabilities throughout the US to be able to run one using league/regional operators.

Financially I do not see the BCA initially starting a tour that generates millions in total tour prize funds, but I do believe they would be able to start one and make it succeed after 3-5 years to be able to have total tour prize funds in the tens of millions.


Well thats my opion and like you said, everyone wont feel the same way.