What do the Top Players in the World AIM at?

TATE said:
Exactly.

Aim visualization takes into account a lot of things personalized to each player. Personally, for example, I shoot throw shots best when I mentally connect the OB to the pocket, then I aim and muster the correct amount of spin (tip position and speed combined) to make the shot go there. Yes, of course I am aiming at the OB, to an exact point, and I am also aiming at the pocket - and in my mind since I play on tight tables, to an exact point in the pocket - usually at the center in between the two points.

What if I want to shoot a high RPM spin shot? Then I know I have to aim well under the final angle and I visualize throwing the OB maximunm and try to do that. How would aomebuody else aim for me when only I know my maximum throw with my particular tip and cue and stroke? There is nobody who can aim for me because I am manipulating the ball too much. The correct cut point of aim on that shot could be a half-foot off just depending on how much spin I decide to use.

I was once working with a friend who was having a little trouble getting the cue ball to rebound on the line he wanted at certain angles. I kept watching and watching what he was doing and the cue ball wasn't reacting the usual way. After we experimented, I came to the conclusion that he was sunconciously aiming off line and squirting the cue ball to the correct contact point. Because he was always at an angle to his aim point, the OB was fine darting into the hole, but the CB was definitely taking on unusual spin characteristics.

How am I going to tell a player who squirts every shot, including straight in shots, where to aim? And this guy is a top caliber shotmaker too.

Chris
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I think you're right. Within the boundaries of the true physics of the game, we all need to come up with our own construct for our personal version of the game. Our eyesight; bridge and grip hands; cue tip and shape; arm span and our height; how we best see the balls; our coordination; how we stand and move; the cue we're using; and stuff like that there.

Lou Figueroa
 
"Use your subconscious, Lou!"

Pushout said:
Lou,
How on earth do you learn something like this and how can you teach it?? Hal Houle says everyone aims at something, even if it's subconsciously. I'm not say you're wrong but I don't get it:confused:
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Pushout:

As irascible as Lou can be at times here, he's got a solid point. If you have to think about a shot (specifically how to aim it, that is), you've already missed -- you just don't know it yet. There's a point to "getting in the zone," where you're pocketing balls effortlessly, and not a hint of thought at aiming any particular shot. The execution of the shot is done with the subconscious mind -- where those many thousand hours of stored muscle memories are stored. The trick is letting yourself sink into that zone, to let go, and let the subconscious mind do what it does best -- replay.

The conscious mind is best left to picking out the patterns of the balls, choosing a break ball at the appropriate time (in 14.1), choosing where you want to leave the cue ball for the next shot, etc.

I shot [what I consider to be] a very nice 122-ball run in June of this year, and the thing that gets me (and reminds me) is that at the time I was executing the run, I basically "didn't know where I was." I was in the zone the entire time. I was just thinking about the patterns, carefully strategizing position play, and not once -- and I mean this -- not once did I consider how to "aim" a particular shot. While standing up, chalking my cue, I was thinking about the patterns, and when I selected my shot, I got in-line with the shot ("aim" was subconsciously already complete), got into my stance, and fired the shot in, watching where the cue ball was going, to make sure I got the spin and speed correct. When I pulled the trigger on the shot, in my mind, it was a foregone conclusion -- the object ball was as good as "dead" (pocketed), so the more important thing was where whitey was going, in relation to the spot I selected for him.

The sad thing was, after my practice partner proclaimed "100!" and started clapping when I reached 100, it snapped me out of the zone. I suddenly became aware of what had just happened, and still was happening, and things started to fall apart. I started to think about "not missing[!]" and became aware of how I was aiming (mainly ghostball / CP-to-CP). The run finally ended when I over-analyzed a break shot and just plain hit it wrong -- I made the ball, but whitey got hopelessly stuck in the pack, and I had no shot. I tried to play "white flag" (one of those wing-and-a-prayer shots), but I missed, and that was that.

The point is, I think folks over analyze aiming. Just let your subconscious mind do what it does best -- play back from those countless hours of practice you have stored away deep in there, and learn to trust it. Learn to "see" the shot from the deepest recesses of your mind, get into position for the shot while still standing (this is the "aiming" part), bend into your stance, and execute.

Can you teach this? Yes, but it wouldn't be called "teaching how to aim." It would be called "teaching yourself how to trust yourself."

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
 
As irascible as Lou can be at times here, he's got a solid point. If you have to think about a shot (specifically how to aim it, that is), you've already missed -- you just don't know it yet. There's a point to "getting in the zone," where you're pocketing balls effortlessly,
Click to expand...
Isn't that just the result of controlling the cueball effortlessly?
You imagine the collision and know where the cueball is going. It must have meant you know where the OB is going. :smile:
 
JoeyInCali said:
Isn't that just the result of controlling the cueball effortlessly?
You imagine the collision and know where the cueball is going. It must have meant you know where the OB is going. :smile:
Click to expand...

Joey:

That's a good way of putting it. For me, the object ball is (or was) a foregone conclusion, and the only "conscious" thing taking any of my brain cycles, was where whitey was going, in relation to the spot I picked out for him. I didn't think about the object ball at all. For me, as I "take in" this conscious experience of watching whitey, it fine tunes my touch on the cue ball, and these experiences get stored away.

(BTW, when I say I "watch whitey," I certainly don't mean violating good mechanics -- I stay down after delivering the cue ball, and only after a solid "Finish" position and the object ball is gone, do I pick my head up and watch the results where the cue ball is going.)

Good input,
-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Pushout:

As irascible as Lou can be at times here, he's got a solid point. If you have to think about a shot (specifically how to aim it, that is), you've already missed -- you just don't know it yet. There's a point to "getting in the zone," where you're pocketing balls effortlessly, and not a hint of thought at aiming any particular shot. The execution of the shot is done with the subconscious mind -- where those many thousand hours of stored muscle memories are stored. The trick is letting yourself sink into that zone, to let go, and let the subconscious mind do what it does best -- replay.

The conscious mind is best left to picking out the patterns of the balls, choosing a break ball at the appropriate time (in 14.1), choosing where you want to leave the cue ball for the next shot, etc.

I shot [what I consider to be] a very nice 122-ball run in June of this year, and the thing that gets me (and reminds me) is that at the time I was executing the run, I basically "didn't know where I was." I was in the zone the entire time. I was just thinking about the patterns, carefully strategizing position play, and not once -- and I mean this -- not once did I consider how to "aim" a particular shot. While standing up, chalking my cue, I was thinking about the patterns, and when I selected my shot, I got in-line with the shot ("aim" was subconsciously already complete), got into my stance, and fired the shot in, watching where the cue ball was going, to make sure I got the spin and speed correct. When I pulled the trigger on the shot, in my mind, it was a foregone conclusion -- the object ball was as good as "dead" (pocketed), so the more important thing was where whitey was going, in relation to the spot I selected for him.

The sad thing was, after my practice partner proclaimed "100!" and started clapping when I reached 100, it snapped me out of the zone. I suddenly became aware of what had just happened, and still was happening, and things started to fall apart. I started to think about "not missing[!]" and became aware of how I was aiming (mainly ghostball / CP-to-CP). The run finally ended when I over-analyzed a break shot and just plain hit it wrong -- I made the ball, but whitey got hopelessly stuck in the pack, and I had no shot. I tried to play "white flag" (one of those wing-and-a-prayer shots), but I missed, and that was that.

The point is, I think folks over analyze aiming. Just let your subconscious mind do what it does best -- play back from those countless hours of practice you have stored away deep in there, and learn to trust it. Learn to "see" the shot from the deepest recesses of your mind, get into position for the shot while still standing (this is the "aiming" part), bend into your stance, and execute.

Can you teach this? Yes, but it wouldn't be called "teaching how to aim." It would be called "teaching yourself how to trust yourself."

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Click to expand...

Good posting Sean, :)

had something like you on one of the last times i was able to spend time at the table in may. Was playing straight-pool- good friend just sit next to me, just watching, not talking..nothing. After the 7th Rack i ve had a perfect breakshot -score til then was 98. Another guy came in, was whispering to my friend and asked him something- short before executing he shouted at me: WOW- go for the 100....................*xxxxxxxxxx*

of course i ended on 98....LOL,

lg
Ingo
 
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**************
If you have to think about a shot (specifically how to aim it, that is), you've already missed -- you just don't know it yet.
***************

On the other hand, if you don't think about a bank shot, you've already missed.

The top banks players may not have to think very hard, but I think most of their misses are the result of insufficient planning rather than flawed execution.

I don't play 3C, but I suspect that it is a lot like banks.
 
lfigueroa said:
Thanks. The school yard stuff is silly. I have no doubt that Bill has much to contribute, but to him nothing is free, you need to be a top player, blah, blah, blah. Basically, he's all about selling stuff here. He's got a chip on his shoulder (and a stick up his keister) the size of a cinder block. But enough compliments :-)

So, no -- I don't see any lines or contact points ghost balls (or dead people). Really and truly.

You just see that the shot is on.

I think the real key to this is that people that are able to do this feel their PSR is reliable enough to put the cue ball on the object ball, so that it'll go into the pocket or wherever else the shooter wants it to go. For me, it's all about getting into shooting position. And if I've made all the right decisions -- like where to hit the cue ball and speed to use -- before I start that process, the actual shooting is almost an afterthought.

I know that on some shots, where I'm somewhat uncertain about whether I'm lined up right, I just trust that my PSR has put me where I need to be and pull the trigger. And it usually works. If I'm wrong, then I make a mental note: you thought that was going to go into the pocket but you undercut cut it a hair. And the next time that angle comes up I remember: the last time you undercut this shot -- cut it a bit more, dufus. Or maybe it'll be the other end of the shot, like a position play: perhaps I shoot a shot with a bit of stun or draw and note that the cue ball held, or traveled up stream a bit more than I anticipated. It's then once again a matter of memory so that when the shot comes up again and I've got the same angle I can say to myself,: use a bit less speed (or a higher hit on the cue ball) so that it doesn't hold as much, dufus.

Lou Figueroa
dufus
Click to expand...
Hate to sound stupid, but what does "PSR" mean?
 
cuesmith said:
Hate to sound stupid, but what does "PSR" mean?
Click to expand...

Pre-Shot Routine -- that series/sequence of things you do prior to the shot, including those things you do while in your stance, that add-up to your final cue delivery. When it comes to the PSR, Lou's talking consistency here, and it's a very solid point. Consistency leads to consistency, and methinks that's his point.

My addendum to this is that consistency leads to relaxation and relief of tension. This, in turn, leads to "sinking" into the zone.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Pre-Shot Routine -- that series/sequence of things you do prior to the shot, including those things you do while in your stance, that add-up to your final cue delivery. When it comes to the PSR, Lou's talking consistency here, and it's a very solid point. Consistency leads to consistency, and methinks that's his point.

My addendum to this is that consistency leads to relaxation and relief of tension. This, in turn, leads to "sinking" into the zone.

-Sean
Click to expand...
Thanks Sean, I knew it was something simple like that, but I don't read aiming threads and wasn't familiar with the abbreviation.
 
Dead Crab said:
**************
If you have to think about a shot (specifically how to aim it, that is), you've already missed -- you just don't know it yet.
***************

I wont say this statement is wrong but is sure isn't right.:eek:
Click to expand...
 
Pushout said:
Lou,
How on earth do you learn something like this and how can you teach it?? Hal Houle says everyone aims at something, even if it's subconsciously. I'm not say you're wrong but I don't get it:confused:
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's true that "everybody aims AT something." It's enough to have a sense of the overlap between the balls.

Let's assume that you have the ability to stroke the cue along the line from your visual center to the desired tip-cueball contact point.

If so, then AIMING doesn't have to be about pointing the cue at anything. Aiming could be just about finding the correct position for your visual center.

Forget the stick. Move your eyes to where the shot looks right and you're done. The shot looking right is more about the overlap than anything, imo.

I think this is the value of all this pivot-based aiming stuff. The pivot don't mean squat. The key is to aim the shot without the bias of the stick: to get the visual center in the right place. Only THEN does the stick come into play to complete the straightforward physical task part of it. The pivoting part is just a rain dance, imo.

Players who aim this way might actually feel a little baffled inside when you ask what they aim at. They don't really aim at anything.
 
mikepage said:
I'm not sure it's true that "everybody aims AT something." It's enough to have a sense of the overlap between the balls.

Let's assume that you have the ability to stroke the cue along the line from your visual center to the desired tip-cueball contact point.

If so, then AIMING doesn't have to be about pointing the cue at anything. Aiming could be just about finding the correct position for your visual center.

Forget the stick. Move your eyes to where the shot looks right and you're done. The shot looking right is more about the overlap than anything, imo.

I think this is the value of all this pivot-based aiming stuff. The pivot don't mean squat. The key is to aim the shot without the bias of the stick: to get the visual center in the right place. Only THEN does the stick come into play to complete the straightforward physical task part of it. The pivoting part is just a rain dance, imo.

Players who aim this way might actually feel a little baffled inside when you ask what they aim at. They don't really aim at anything.
Click to expand...

Mike:

This is a GREAT synopsis. There's a good video released on YouTube that describes exactly this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kLjSlHr38dc

In it, Trevor makes great use of "POV" (point of view) angles of the camera, and he puts you right behind the shot so you can see what he's talking about. It really is not that difficult. Granted, this assumes you have superior fundamentals (as Trevor does) in delivering the cue ball accurately. He also attempts to debunk the "x number of tips" aiming method, which is flawed for many reasons.

-Sean
 
When a person says that it not about aiming it is about feeling the shot and just knowing when it will go in I think they are simply saying that they cannot explain how their brain takes into consideration the many factors that are or could be involved. For instance using English with a hard stroke make the cue ball deflect a significant amount. Using English with low soft stroke can make the cue ball curve to the side on which the English is placed. The player’s mind has to learn how to integrate these two opposing forces and this must be done over different distances using functional (continuous) integration of the opposing forces. These types of calculations are not the types of things that can be placed into words. None-the-less the variables can be identified and the player can work with each variable independently and then in an integrated way.

The player who thinks he has no aiming system is only saying that they do not have the words to describe how they calculate. If you think that you can pocket balls without aiming, walk to the table blind folded. Bet you can’t find the cue ball that is to be propelled.

In contrast to the million ball theory I would think that a person who understands the variables and how they work together to compound and or negate each other in a set of continuous relationships can improve more quickly, though they too may not be able to say, in words, what it is they do.

The PSR is used to set the stage for the mind to integrate all of the requirements. It is like a gun emplacement: A place from which the calculations are made.
 
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lfigueroa said:
Pushout, the way you learn is by creating a PSR that makes the balls go where you want them to go. And if you really and truly nail down your PSR, everything else is gravy.

That's it. Oh yes, and understanding the basic physics of the game. I'm not saying you need to know the formulas, but just that if you know that almost everything in pool is predictable, it becomes kind of obvious that you need to get pretty good at those predictions. If you understand that english does certain things, and that there are other factors, like squirt, and swerve, and speed, and that elevation can have a huge effect, then you're on your way to learning all this is a way some of the highly touted systems cannot teach.

The unfortunate truth is that it's hard work and that there is no magic bullet, no special system that's going to cut all these annoying but essential corners. But, most folks don't have the time and/or inclination to do the roadwork and reps. So they buy the DVD instead :-)

It's a lot of time, effort, concentration, and experimentation.

A lot of experimentation. Many don't want to hear that.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get what you mean, to some degree at least. I think I got onto that long ago and just kinda "forgot":o What Tate said helped me to realize that, too. Good thread, actually!
 
Played some 3c with Bill today in 3 innings he ran a 7,8,7 so I guess he figured out what to aim at.Im sure all the great advice he got here helped.
 
JoeW said:
When a person says that it not about aiming it is about feeling the shot and just knowing when it will go in I think they are simply saying that they cannot explain how their brain takes into consideration the many factors that are or could be involved. For instance using English with a hard stroke make the cue ball deflect a significant amount. Using English with low soft stroke can make the cue ball curve to the side on which the English is placed. The player’s mind has to learn how to integrate these two opposing forces and this must be done over different distances using functional (continuous) integration of the opposing forces. These types of calculations are not the types of things that can be placed into words. None-the-less the variables can be identified and the player can work with each variable independently and then in an integrated way.

The player who thinks he has no aiming system is only saying that they do not have the words to describe how they calculate. If you think that you can pocket balls without aiming, walk to the table blind folded. Bet you can’t find the cue ball that is to be propelled.

In contrast to the million ball theory I would think that a person who understands the variables and how they work together to compound and or negate each other in a set of continuous relationships can improve more quickly, though they too may not be able to say, in words, what it is they do.

The PSR is used to set the stage for the mind to integrate all of the requirements. It is like a gun emplacement: A place from which the calculations are made.
Click to expand...

the psr is underated.
this is very important.
 
Just hit it soft and take the cut...The pockets are really big in pool if you hit the ball soft.
 
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Please someone tell me how to aim to hit a baseball with a bat. I always sucked at baseball and used to strike out a lot as a kid when I played in the local athletic association (softball).

I don't even know if we had curve balls in softball as kids. How would you hit a baseball curveball?

Do you have to calculate the contact point on the bat? Do you see the contact point on the ball? How do you hit the ball on the middle portion of the diameter of the batt so it goes straight and does not pop up? From what I understand, a major league batter has to start his swing well before the ball is anywhere near him, because it is going so fast. How does he know where the ball will be at the time it crosses the plate? How does he calculate that?

Please tell me how to aim to hit a baseball. I want to be a good batter. I was always the bench warmer for half the game because I was bad. I'm sure the only reason I was a bench warmer was because I did not have this knowledge that all the good players on my team had. Please help me to hit a ball so I can regain my baseball dignity!
 
sfleinen said:
Pushout:

As irascible as Lou can be at times here, he's got a solid point. If you have to think about a shot (specifically how to aim it, that is), you've already missed -- you just don't know it yet. There's a point to "getting in the zone," where you're pocketing balls effortlessly, and not a hint of thought at aiming any particular shot. The execution of the shot is done with the subconscious mind -- where those many thousand hours of stored muscle memories are stored. The trick is letting yourself sink into that zone, to let go, and let the subconscious mind do what it does best -- replay.

The conscious mind is best left to picking out the patterns of the balls, choosing a break ball at the appropriate time (in 14.1), choosing where you want to leave the cue ball for the next shot, etc.

I shot [what I consider to be] a very nice 122-ball run in June of this year, and the thing that gets me (and reminds me) is that at the time I was executing the run, I basically "didn't know where I was." I was in the zone the entire time. I was just thinking about the patterns, carefully strategizing position play, and not once -- and I mean this -- not once did I consider how to "aim" a particular shot. While standing up, chalking my cue, I was thinking about the patterns, and when I selected my shot, I got in-line with the shot ("aim" was subconsciously already complete), got into my stance, and fired the shot in, watching where the cue ball was going, to make sure I got the spin and speed correct. When I pulled the trigger on the shot, in my mind, it was a foregone conclusion -- the object ball was as good as "dead" (pocketed), so the more important thing was where whitey was going, in relation to the spot I selected for him.

The sad thing was, after my practice partner proclaimed "100!" and started clapping when I reached 100, it snapped me out of the zone. I suddenly became aware of what had just happened, and still was happening, and things started to fall apart. I started to think about "not missing[!]" and became aware of how I was aiming (mainly ghostball / CP-to-CP). The run finally ended when I over-analyzed a break shot and just plain hit it wrong -- I made the ball, but whitey got hopelessly stuck in the pack, and I had no shot. I tried to play "white flag" (one of those wing-and-a-prayer shots), but I missed, and that was that.

The point is, I think folks over analyze aiming. Just let your subconscious mind do what it does best -- play back from those countless hours of practice you have stored away deep in there, and learn to trust it. Learn to "see" the shot from the deepest recesses of your mind, get into position for the shot while still standing (this is the "aiming" part), bend into your stance, and execute.

Can you teach this? Yes, but it wouldn't be called "teaching how to aim." It would be called "teaching yourself how to trust yourself."

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
Click to expand...


irascible (moi)?

I think getting into the zone is a different, but related thing. I mean, at games like 1pocket, where it's often one shot an inning, you just have to be able to step to the table each time and nail it -- it's quite literally a one shot deal, if you will.

Now of course at 14.1, you can get into a rhythm and a zone, as you described. It is one of the sublime pleasures of the game, with a high as good as that from a drug.

Perhaps it's the ability for the former that gains you entree to the latter.

Lou Figueroa
 
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