What do the Top Players in the World AIM at?

Ill be the first to admit he can be a little harsh,but anything away from the table hes a hell of a nice guy.I have found from being around him that 3c players look at and explain things 180 degrees diff than pool players do.Some of the things hes told me make no sense on a pocket table but when he does it it works.Cant believe it even though ya saw it type thing.Speaking of 3c is Tung still alive or around GR. Steve told me you cant smoke in the pool room anymore?Whats the world coming to?

See, this is exactly what he should be doing - sharing what he knows about. I have no doubt he's pleasant company. He's a champion player. He's totally welcome to post here. He needs a little refreshment on pocket pool playing knowledge and he's doesn't need it from top players. When it comes to the internet and the science of pool, right now it's pretty obvious to us that he's a beginner and needs to act a little more open minded. The things he is an expert on will quickly reveal themselves.

There are many expert players here. To be a TOP player, meaning accomplished, you have to check your real life at the door and god knows why someone would do that when there's no reward.

Somehow I don't think he will recognize his pretense, and how he offended many of us with his arrogance.

By the way, I appreciate you sticking up for your friend and believe me. I respect your posts - you're a good addition to the forum.

Chris
 
I guess he should have posted in 'ask the instructor' section? Would he listen then?

I don't know why some people think that you can't get good advice from coaches unless they are world class players? They don't need to be able to play world class...what they need to be able to do is transfer their knowledge well...
People tend to underestimate power of coaching and I really can't understand why.

In the world of snooker, a cue game not all that different to pool, everyone and their mother have a coach. O'Sullivan, Higgins...etc...every single one of them. Could any of their coaches actually beat them in a match or even pose a threat? Never, not in a million years. But that's not the point. They take advices.

Tennis is also a good example. What if Rafael Nadal suddenly told his uncle coach Toni Nadal something like "you know what old man I don't need you anymore, I am #1 player and nobody can beat me anyway...nobody who is below my level should give me any advice because they don't know shit about winning grand slams or the game itself!". I'd say he'd lose his supremacy very quickly...
 
I have only one thing to say about this thread:
 

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The contact point. You can go through many gyriations of aiming, but it comes down to the contact point.... period.

I agree. It all ends with that. The way to get there is everyones choice. There are so many ways to get there and I believe that's why there is so much heated debate on aiming on here. I would think by now everyone would understand/see/realize that there are many ways to aim. Just not the way one person does it no matter who or how good he is. If you can run a few racks of balls w/o missing your aim is most likely good. Just work on position, stroke, and PSR to get better. You can use 100 ways to find the contact point on the OB, but you need a straight repeatable stroke to hit it every time. Johnnyt
 
I guess he should have posted in 'ask the instructor' section? Would he listen then?

I don't know why some people think that you can't get good advice from coaches unless they are world class players? They don't need to be able to play world class...what they need to be able to do is transfer their knowledge well...
People tend to underestimate power of coaching and I really can't understand why.

In the world of snooker, a cue game not all that different to pool, everyone and their mother have a coach. O'Sullivan, Higgins...etc...every single one of them. Could any of their coaches actually beat them in a match or even pose a threat? Never, not in a million years. But that's not the point. They take advices.

Tennis is also a good example. What if Rafael Nadal suddenly told his uncle coach Toni Nadal something like "you know what old man I don't need you anymore, I am #1 player and nobody can beat me anyway...nobody who is below my level should give me any advice because they don't know shit about winning grand slams or the game itself!". I'd say he'd lose his supremacy very quickly...

I think this post sums it up the best. Bill's biggest problems are the following:

1. He thinks the "TOP" (or "bestest" as I heard him refer to them) players are the only qualified players to answer his question. He thinks that if the "answer doesn't come from the 'TOP'," it ain't worth his time. When you consider that Bill's expertise is in 3C, certainly not pool, one can easily see how misguided this stance is.

2. Bill equates this "how to aim" topic with the notion of "would you want to get surgery from a medical school student, or would you rather get it from a top specialist with over 20 years of experience on your very condition?" (Yes, without getting into details, let's just say there are some offline discussions going on via PM.) As you can see, Bill has some misplaced priority/importance issues, using this faulty analogy to equate with aiming a pool ball. It's a friggin' pool ball and a stick -- it ain't cancer surgery!!

3. Bill obviously has some deep-seated mistrust of instructors of any type (as evidenced in other forums against the likes of Randy Goettlicher ["randyg"], Scott Lee, etc.) What "predator" pointed out in his post above, is very sound -- do you really think that Michael Neumann (Jasmin Ouschan's coach and instructor) would want to get into a money match with Jasmin herself? Do you really think that he is more of a "TOP" player over Jasmin and can outshoot her? The answer is an obvious and resounding NO! Jasmin would CRUSH him in a match. But Jasmin has retained his services, because he's obviously a very good coach, who understands the fundamentals of good pool-playing fundamentals and strategy, and he's clearly able to convey these things in a lucid, helpful manner to Jasmin for integration into (and correction of, in appropriate cases) her game. He doesn't have to be a better player than her. But Bill misses that very point.

4. Can "TOP" players better explain how they aim any better than folks with equivalent qualifications (e.g. instructor certifications -- especially road-seasoned ones like randyg, Scott Lee, et al.)? The answer here also is an obvious and resounding NO! In fact, if you ask "TOP" players how they aim, many of them can't even explain to you how. Many of them simply don't know how, or can't explain it in words. They just do it. It's an ingrained action after many years of dedicated practice -- committing shots to muscle memory, so that they are AUTOMATIC. And, to be painfully and brutally honest (I know I'm going to catch some serious sh!t over what I'm about to say), let's consider the education level of your average "TOP" player. Do you really think that these guys/gals are PhDs or highly schooled/educated/trained people? We know the answer -- with very few notable exceptions, they aren't. In fact, you'd be lucky if you can grab a random sampling of 50% of the "TOP" pros, and see if they have any post-high school education at all (and even having a high school diploma [or even G.E.D.] may be a challenge in certain cases!). Many of them can't even read/write in a clear, coherent manner. ("TXT"-speak has unfortunately poisoned our society with an "r u sure u can aim 2 pockt the ball w/ n e accuracy?" method of expressing oneself -- look at the way some of these guys/gals post here in AZB!) And you'd want someone like this to explain to you, in a clear well-constructed manner, how to aim? Bill seems to think so.

5. Bill is completely missing the boat on what he did wrong here. He doesn't get it. This is a public forum, after all (the "Main" forum, the last I looked), and folks from all walks of life read/post here. But to hang a sign out there, in clear view, that basically says "no commoners allowed" is reminiscent of "back of the bus" caste thinking. If he truly wanted feedback from only "TOP" level players, why post the request here? Why not "Ask the Pros" or the "Ask the Instructor" forums? (Well, based on previous interactions he'd had in those forums -- especially the latter one -- we know the answer to that one! :o ) He'd been informed time and again, that with only one or two exceptions, NONE of his "prized list" of players read/post here. Granted, some of the replies he got early on could get your hackles up if you were the one receiving them. You treat those as isolated, individual cases, and respond to those appropriately, with replies focused on only that one individual. You don't paint the entire readership (or the ones posting respectfully) with the same broad arrogant condescending brush. This is not Ivory Tower Politics.

Don't get me wrong -- I *know* who Bill is. He really needs no introduction -- his credentials are well-known. And one can "feel" that if he/she met Bill in person, one can see how "down home," level, and nice a person he really is. But how one is in person, and how he/she portrays him/herself in public -- especially when in a challenging situation, can be two different things. In Bill's case, it obviously is.

Respectfully,
-Sean
 
Dean,

Believe me, there is nothing me and Neil would like more than Mr. 3C on a pool table to show him how we, non TOP players, aim.

Chris

You dont have to like that game either.Try playin him some one pocket or straight pool and see how how goes.Bill is quiet proficient at any game useing a cue.
 
Tung is not around here anymore, although he did stop in a couple of years ago. No smoking allowed anymore. Place is remodeled, and they got rid of their regular customers, me included.(not barred, just don't care to go there anymore) New manager knows nothing about pool, and doesn't care. He's all about the bar and restaurant. About the only customers for pool are on league night. From what I hear, might not be open another year yet.

Scott did try and make it better, but made some big mistakes along the way and lost customers. Place looks real nice though.

Wow that stinks.I havent been there in a few years and live 1400 miles away but cant imagine not being able to go to the sands anytime I want day or night. They didnt fire Doug did they?Where are you guys playing now?
 
I think this post sums it up the best. Bill's biggest problems are the following:

1. He thinks the "TOP" (or "bestest" as I heard him refer to them) players are the only qualified players to answer his question. He thinks that if the "answer doesn't come from the 'TOP'," it ain't worth his time. When you consider that Bill's expertise is in 3C, certainly not pool, one can easily see how misguided this stance is.

2. Bill equates this "how to aim" topic with the notion of "would you want to get surgery from a medical school student, or would you rather get it from a top specialist with over 20 years of experience on your very condition?" (Yes, without getting into details, let's just say there are some offline discussions going on via PM.) As you can see, Bill has some misplaced priority/importance issues, using this faulty analogy to equate with aiming a pool ball. It's a friggin' pool ball and a stick -- it ain't cancer surgery!!

3. Bill obviously has some deep-seated mistrust of instructors of any type (as evidenced in other forums against the likes of Randy Goettlicher ["randyg"], Scott Lee, etc.) What "predator" pointed out in his post above, is very sound -- do you really think that Michael Neumann (Jasmin Ouschan's coach and instructor) would want to get into a money match with Jasmin herself? Do you really think that he is more of a "TOP" player over Jasmin and can outshoot her? The answer is an obvious and resounding NO! Jasmin would CRUSH him in a match. But Jasmin has retained his services, because he's obviously a very good coach, who understands the fundamentals of good pool-playing fundamentals and strategy, and he's clearly able to convey these things in a lucid, helpful manner to Jasmin for integration into (and correction of, in appropriate cases) her game. He doesn't have to be a better player than her. But Bill misses that very point.

4. Can "TOP" players better explain how they aim any better than folks with equivalent qualifications (e.g. instructor certifications -- especially road-seasoned ones like randyg, Scott Lee, et al.)? The answer here also is an obvious and resounding NO! In fact, if you ask "TOP" players how they aim, many of them can't even explain to you how. Many of them simply don't know how, or can't explain it in words. They just do it. It's an ingrained action after many years of dedicated practice -- committing shots to muscle memory, so that they are AUTOMATIC. And, to be painfully and brutally honest (I know I'm going to catch some serious sh!t over what I'm about to say), let's consider the education level of your average "TOP" player. Do you really think that these guys/gals are PhDs or highly schooled/educated/trained people? We know the answer -- with very few notable exceptions, they aren't. In fact, you'd be lucky if you can grab a random sampling of 50% of the "TOP" pros, and see if they have any post-high school education at all (and even having a high school diploma [or even G.E.D.] may be a challenge in certain cases!). Many of them can't even read/write in a clear, coherent manner. ("TXT"-speak has unfortunately poisoned our society with an "r u sure u can aim 2 pockt the ball w/ n e accuracy?" method of expressing oneself -- look at the way some of these guys/gals post here in AZB!) And you'd want someone like this to explain to you, in a clear well-constructed manner, how to aim? Bill seems to think so.

5. Bill is completely missing the boat on what he did wrong here. He doesn't get it. This is a public forum, after all (the "Main" forum, the last I looked), and folks from all walks of life read/post here. But to hang a sign out there, in clear view, that basically says "no commoners allowed" is reminiscent of "back of the bus" caste thinking. If he truly wanted feedback from only "TOP" level players, why post the request here? Why not "Ask the Pros" or the "Ask the Instructor" forums? (Well, based on previous interactions he'd had in those forums -- especially the latter one -- we know the answer to that one! :o ) He'd been informed time and again, that with only one or two exceptions, NONE of his "prized list" of players read/post here. Granted, some of the replies he got early on could get your hackles up if you were the one receiving them. You treat those as isolated, individual cases, and respond to those appropriately, with replies focused on only that one individual. You don't paint the entire readership (or the ones posting respectfully) with the same broad arrogant condescending brush. This is not Ivory Tower Politics.

Don't get me wrong -- I *know* who Bill is. He really needs no introduction -- his credentials are well-known. And one can "feel" that if he/she met Bill in person, one can see how "down home," level, and nice a person he really is. But how one is in person, and how he/she portrays him/herself in public -- especially when in a challenging situation, can be two different things. In Bill's case, it obviously is.

Respectfully,
-Sean

Jesus what he was trying to do,and i admit in the wrong forum,was find out if Top players in pool agree on and use the same aiming system or if there are many diff approaches.And Bill is more than capable at a pool table as well.
 
You dont have to like that game either.Try playin him some one pocket or straight pool and see how how goes.Bill is quiet proficient at any game useing a cue.

If the man plays well at all games what is the purpose of this thread.
Sounds to me he already knows how to aim.
 
If the man plays well at all games what is the purpose of this thread.
Sounds to me he already knows how to aim.

Trying to get a comparison it just came off wrong and then snowballed into a real mess.Unfortunatley people get insulted easy and then bite back even harder.I realy dont care either way I just thought the thread went realy bad for no reason.Bill didnt express himself well and everyone took offense.Oh well.My only problem was when it was stated that Bill was a jerk as a person.If you walk into a room and he is practicing intro yourself and ask him how to shoot something he will stop what hes doing have you set it up show you how have you try several time until you get it.You dont find many pros willing to do that.Bill is always glad to try and spark peoples intrest in 3c and is a great guy to talk to about "the good ol days"
 
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See, this is exactly what he should be doing - sharing what he knows about. I have no doubt he's pleasant company. He's a champion player. He's totally welcome to post here. He needs a little refreshment on pocket pool playing knowledge and he's doesn't need it from top players. When it comes to the internet and the science of pool, right now it's pretty obvious to us that he's a beginner and needs to act a little more open minded. The things he is an expert on will quickly reveal themselves.

There are many expert players here. To be a TOP player, meaning accomplished, you have to check your real life at the door and god knows why someone would do that when there's no reward.

Somehow I don't think he will recognize his pretense, and how he offended many of us with his arrogance.

By the way, I appreciate you sticking up for your friend and believe me. I respect your posts - you're a good addition to the forum.

Chris

Thanks Chris, I dont post much but when I do I hope it always brings some redeming quality to the forum. Like I said I didnt realy get what he was getting at and it did go wrong.I was only sticking up for Bill as a person.I am certainly not perfect and sometimes come off wrong so I can see how it happens.

Brad
 
"Jumped in"?

Tough crowd.

Is this how you get into a gang? Get the sh#t beat out of you, and then everythings all lovey dovey?

Like none of us has ever misspoke, unintentionally offended, or been misunderstood in asking or telling others something.

The man has done stuff. The man knows stuff. Maybe he doesn't know how to ask stuff. We need more people who know stuff, not fewer. We have run off enough already.

Just my worthless opinion.
 
With responses like yours im supprised anyone posts anything.I guess ya gotta have thick skin around here.

Nah...you just have to avoid being overly defensive, condescending, and insulting.

Sequence of events:
1) Bill posts a question but doesn't want to hear responses from anyone that isn't a top player.
2) Some people get a little miffed at what comes across as a condescending attitude (probably not intended, to be fair)
3) Some people cry about any response that indicates the original post and approach to this thread could use a little improvement.
4) Improvement is not for everyone. Especially people that don't see the need.
5) Bill implies that he will take his business elsewhere, and I can't help but detect a bit of an implication that we are somehow missing out as a result.

Thus PJ's comment was 100% spot on, as it specifically poked fun at this exact sequence of events. Did I miss something here?

KMRUNOUT
 
Bill,

Patrick asked you a totally fair question.

This was your response:

" P.S. I was really looking for some TOP players to respond, thier input."

Not only that, you didn't bother to answer the question, or offer any insight at all. Open forums are give and take, not here to accommodate you to conveniently do research from experts on a subject.

You were rude with that response. Anybody can respond to any question you post. It's up to you to decide if they are expert enough to give it credibility, or ignore it.

If it weren't for the fact that you are a championship 3C player, people would have been a lot harder on you. I'm surprised that you don't see this is not the way to do things.

Chris

Well said sir.
 
What I cant figure out is why he posted here anyway he knows most of those guys pretty well and couldve just called.I guess he thought it would be good info for everybody.

I can't imagine where you get the idea that Bill was interested in providing info to anybody. That didn't come across *at all*.
 
you seriously think there is a chicken and egg thing going here? Someone was rude first. Who was it?

I dont know was it the person that answered a question not asked of him or the guy that asked it or is it all just ridiculous BS.I dont think stating that your not looking for answers from lesser players is exactly the right way to put it but I also think everyone got offended a little easily.Either way it doesnt realy matter it seems alot of people like to use this as a means to vent whatever frustrations they have built up.It realy makes you think twice before bringing up any issue.
 
I dont know was it the person that answered a question not asked of him or the guy that asked it or is it all just ridiculous BS.I dont think stating that your not looking for answers from lesser players is exactly the right way to put it but I also think everyone got offended a little easily.Either way it doesnt realy matter it seems alot of people like to use this as a means to vent whatever frustrations they have built up.It realy makes you think twice before bringing up any issue.

Well put. I know exactly what you mean. Still, I would hardly call offering a reply that wasn't asked for "rude". Especially if that reply is intended to help direct the OP's search for an answer. in any case thanks for your well stated reply.

KMRUNOUT
 
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