Most dominant cash Nine ball player of any era?

sjm said:
Pretty close call between the Luther Lassiter of the 1940's and the Buddy Hall of the 1970's, but Lassier gets the nod.
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yea everyone else that is mentioned like keith and Frisco Jack could vie for Buddys spot as thats arguable....but the nod does go to Lassiter, NO ONE WANTED TO PLAY HIM.....

Worst didn't even really want to play him.....luther didn't want to play him either......and worst was the scariest MF'r anyone of that era or since has ever seen.

Lassiter had the crown for a LONG TIME......Buddy had it for a good long minute....all the others had it for a good minute too.....but Lassiter had it with an iron grip like mosconi had the 14.1.......

screw the $$$ amount made then keith would have to be the man....if your talking about who was the best for sky high stacks of cheeze that standing on top of would make your nose bleed then HIS QUAKENESS THE ETHER would be your guy.

For just day to day life as the best whom struck fear in everyone elses chest....

Lassiter........

-Grey Ghost-
 
Jay, I have a question for you that seems consistent with this thread. I was in Olathe last weekend for the tournament and thought about asking David Matlock this question.

I am an old pool player (age 50) that grew up in Wichita and sweated most of the big action that came through town and went down at the old Burkes Steakhouse. However, the one person that I never got to see play because he quit right before I became involved in pool around 1976, was Greg "Big Train" Stevens. I have always wondered how he would have played and fared against the likes of David Matlock, who, by the way, in the early to mid 80's, played the best bar box 9 ball that I have ever personally witnessed.

So, my friend, with the consummate encyclopedic pool knowledge you possess, what say you? Stevens or Matlock for the cheddar? Thanks, in advance for considering this question and imparting your learned wisdom.
 
jay helfert said:
Lassiter was probably the most dominant of all time, with only one man he felt was his equal - George Rood. And Luther could bring it for the cash, the bigger the better. Do you know he was playing $100-500 a game 9-Ball in the 40's and 50's? That's like playing for several thousand a game today.

Other dominant players include Buddy without question. He was the most feared American player for many years. Not even Keith wanted any part of him. Then Parica came along and pretty soon no one wanted to do business with him either. He was spotting the world! And winning!

These three are the dominant big money 9-Ball players during my lifetime. One other player of note was Jay Swanson, who next to Buddy, could play better for big money than anyone else.
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good point Jay

years ago right after swanny died, there was a group of people gathered at the pool room and talked about this subject.the people in the group were bill staton,larry lascotti,vernon elliot and lee angle.they concluded that to get the big cash jay swanson was first, luther was second and buddy third.what was amazing that i wont forget, is that it only took them about 3 minutes for the results without an argument.

bill
 
The only two 9-ball players who truly dominated their eras as the obvious best player alive were probably Lassiter in the 60's and Efren in the mid 90's to 2004 or so.

Any other person in any other era who was awesome had other players who were right there. Keith had Buddy, Buddy had Parica, Roberts supposedly had flashes of dominance, ect...
 
Most dominant 9 ball player

I spent a lot of time with George Rood the last 15 years of his life and he gave the 7 ball for 100 a game in the 1940s to most of the players who are on some peoples best ever lists.
The men whos 9 ball games for money that he respected most were in this order
1. Rags Fitzpatrick
2. Luther lassiter
3. Bud Hypes {on his 4 x 8 table}
George quit playing for about 30 years because of cataracts {from about 1955 to 1985], so he never played Buddy Hall or Efren but I know he thought Efren was one of the 2 best all around players who ever lived {Fitzpatrick being the other] and that Buddy Hall could play against anyone at 9 ball.
Some other players he had a lot of respect for were Jimmy Moore and Ted Elias from northern Ohio.
 
sjm said:
Pretty close call between the Luther Lassiter of the 1940's and the Buddy Hall of the 1970's, but Lasstier gets the nod.
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That, to me, is a very close call. I didn't get to see Lassiter until he was already pretty old. I hear many, many tales though.
i did though grow up near Buddy when he was in Shreveport. He was like a machine and I don't remember anyone, anyone coming there and leaving with the cash. I watched him just destroy player coming through and soon nobody came there to try him on.
Eddie Taylor once tole me that Buddy was playing better 9 Ball than anyone he had eve seen. He was just in awe of Buddy's style and pattern play. That was quite an endorsement in my book. They had a great respect for one another.
When Louie came and Buddy gave him the call 7, (which I have mentioned several times I know) Louie was never in it, and it ain't because he played so badly. Buddy just drilled him 4 straight 8 ahead sets. Louie lived there for 6 months trying to beat Buddy and went through every Stake horse he could find and never got there.
IMO, Nobody today could have stood up to it either. Not there and not at that time. He only weighed maybe 200 pounds then and looks not remotely like he did then. When he and Louie played, it was 28 hours straight, and no problem!
Again, I never really saw Lassiter in action, but I would have loved seeing that match. Heck, wake him up and let's play!
 
Celtic said:
Wu. The guy won about 50% of the world championships he played in before he was in effect removed from competition.
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Wu has not earned the rep as a money player yet. As far as being a great player, he damn sure is.
 
david holstead said:
Jay, I have a question for you that seems consistent with this thread. I was in Olathe last weekend for the tournament and thought about asking David Matlock this question.

I am an old pool player (age 50) that grew up in Wichita and sweated most of the big action that came through town and went down at the old Burkes Steakhouse. However, the one person that I never got to see play because he quit right before I became involved in pool around 1976, was Greg "Big Train" Stevens. I have always wondered how he would have played and fared against the likes of David Matlock, who, by the way, in the early to mid 80's, played the best bar box 9 ball that I have ever personally witnessed.

So, my friend, with the consummate encyclopedic pool knowledge you possess, what say you? Stevens or Matlock for the cheddar? Thanks, in advance for considering this question and imparting your learned wisdom.
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I want to chime in here. I don't speak for Jay , only myself.
I raan around some with Stevens and he was one of the most entertaining characters I have ever known. As for David, I loved his game as much as anyone's. He played like a machine.
Stevens and Matlock?? A total contrast in styles. Both were great shot makers in their prime and the nod there goes to Stevens,IMHO! However, Stevens would take pills and stay up for so long and never see. i have bee on the wrong end of that.
David played so methodical and often just too pretty. The cue ball was on a string and so many times got to insane places for perfect position. Stevens on the other hand, just wanted to see the edge of the ball. Greg was a great player,, I loved the guy, but no way over the long haul could he beat David. It rather pains me to say that too!
like i said, don't mean to butt in, but JMHO!
 
Thanks, Ironman. You are not butting in, at all. I appreciate your candid thoughts, especially since they are empirically based on first hand observation.

I obviously know that they played two different kinds of games. Greg would get out of line on occasion, but fire at a ball if he could see it, while David played (still plays) insanely sick position because of his ability (perhaps tied to his comprehensive knowledge of 3 cushion billiards) to move his ball around the table and leave himself with easier shots. The contrast in styles, notwithstanding Greg's speed addiction, makes the question even more interesting.

Like I said, David Matlock is the best player I have ever personally seen over the long haul. There have been many, many great players with uber talent, but David (The Rifleman, too) has always had the uncanny ability to make the game appear so damn easy. Coming from Wichita, though, the legend of "Big Train" has always been compelling.
 
vasilios said:
good point Jay

years ago right after swanny died, there was a group of people gathered at the pool room and talked about this subject.the people in the group were bill staton,larry lascotti,vernon elliot and lee angle.they concluded that to get the big cash jay swanson was first, luther was second and buddy third.what was amazing that i wont forget, is that it only took them about 3 minutes for the results without an argument.

bill
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I never heard of anyone beating Swanee for the big cash. He was the guy they called in when someone started barking about playing 500 or a thousand a game. Swanee was always ready for the really BIG 9-Ball games! He was never concerned about who he was playing either, didn't even care if he knew his name.

I remember one time he flew back East (all his expenses were paid!) and beat some guy for eighty grand. He got about thirty his end, and flew back home. This was in the early 80's. I found him laying on the beach at Coronado Bay a week later, enjoying his "vacation" time (which was most of the time). I asked him who the guy was that he had played for a thousand a game. His answer to me, "I never did get his name. Bill or Bob or something like that" This was after he had played the guy for two days! He really didn't care who he was or what kind of reputation he had. All Swanee knew is that he was there to beat him, and he did!
 
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david holstead said:
Jay, I have a question for you that seems consistent with this thread. I was in Olathe last weekend for the tournament and thought about asking David Matlock this question.

I am an old pool player (age 50) that grew up in Wichita and sweated most of the big action that came through town and went down at the old Burkes Steakhouse. However, the one person that I never got to see play because he quit right before I became involved in pool around 1976, was Greg "Big Train" Stevens. I have always wondered how he would have played and fared against the likes of David Matlock, who, by the way, in the early to mid 80's, played the best bar box 9 ball that I have ever personally witnessed.

So, my friend, with the consummate encyclopedic pool knowledge you possess, what say you? Stevens or Matlock for the cheddar? Thanks, in advance for considering this question and imparting your learned wisdom.
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I'm pretty much in agreement with Ironman on this subject. I think playing 9-Ball on a big table when both were fresh I would have bet on Greg. I doubt David would have played him on the nine footer. Greg was the absolute greatest shot maker I ever saw, and could run out day and night for at least 2-3 days. It was on the fourth day that he got in trouble. :wink:

Only guys who could pocket balls like The Big Train were Richie Florence and later on Louie. From what I heard (from Richie) Greg beat him at LeCue the first time they played, but when Stevens came to the Stardust a few years later, Richie got even. I think they played downtown at the place Frank Torres owned. I forget the name of that room right now. Back then (late 60's to early 70's), it was a toss up who the best 9-Ball player was between Richie, Cardone, Stevens, Wade Crane and Bernie Schwartz. All five were great players! I hesitate to say this, but maybe the equal of anyone playing today, FOR MONEY!

On a bar box, I would take Matlock day or night, forever and ever. He was the most awesome small table player (for money) I ever saw. He did things on that little box that I never saw anyone else do, and I'm including Buddy, Wade Crane and Keith here. It looked to me like David could make those balls do whatever he told them to do. He could make them talk! He would force them to do what he wanted and no one else played that way. When David played bar pool, he was in control of everything, the balls, the table, the works. He "owned" if you get my meaning.
 
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jay helfert said:
Wu has not earned the rep as a money player yet. As far as being a great player, he damn sure is.
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Wu has not come to the USA to gamble as most on this thread have but I have not seen any of the big money players jumping at the chance to go to Taiwan and play Wu either. Truth be told I don't think Wu would get much action in the USA. SVB would probably try him even due to his success and a great backer who believes in him, and that would be about it.

Hard to earn a rep in action when even the best are not sure they want to bother testing you. And I wonder at saying "soandso1 is a better money player then soandso2" when soandso2 was simply so good that noone stepped out and challenged him at all. And I have NEVER seen any of the top money players put a challenge out there to Wu.
 
david holstead said:
Thanks, Ironman. You are not butting in, at all. I appreciate your candid thoughts, especially since they are empirically based on first hand observation.

I obviously know that they played two different kinds of games. Greg would get out of line on occasion, but fire at a ball if he could see it, while David played (still plays) insanely sick position because of his ability (perhaps tied to his comprehensive knowledge of 3 cushion billiards) to move his ball around the table and leave himself with easier shots. The contrast in styles, notwithstanding Greg's speed addiction, makes the question even more interesting.

Like I said, David Matlock is the best player I have ever personally seen over the long haul. There have been many, many great players with uber talent, but David (The Rifleman, too) has always had the uncanny ability to make the game appear so damn easy. Coming from Wichita, though, the legend of "Big Train" has always been compelling.
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I was pretty young when I met Greg and we ran around mostly Denver and a few spots near by.
In those days matches just went longer, 24 hour sets were pretty common.
One night Greg got into a game with Dick Henry from Colorado Spgs and Andy De Jesus was staking him. Andy was known to pack pretty good, so we got excited. The game though turned out to be $80.00 1 pocket.
This turned out to be the ugliest game ever played. BOth are complete lunatics and every time one comes to the table it is just lock and load and here we go. Dick is wearing bibs with flip flops and Greg has on plaeated slacks, a white shirt, and about size 14 wing tip shoes.
Greg, comes over an whispers, "he ain't wearing nothing under them bibs"!
"Greg, I don't care" I said.
"No really he ain't wearing nothing under there, look when he bends over to shoot" Says Greg!
i say, "Greg, I don't want to look"!
Well, it rattled Greg and Dick won like 6 games in a row. Then Greg starts complaining about being tired.
This hippy type walks in and Greg sends me to talk to the guy. The guy hands me a plastic bag and little did I know it was 100 of the little white crosses. The guy demands $15.00 and I pay him. He turns and walks out the door.
Greg grabs me by the arm and drags me in the bathroom and I hand over the goods. he opens the bag and pours a mouth full down his throat and I mean a mouth full. He told me what they were and having never tried it, I took one and in about 30 minutes my hair was growing fast.
I looked at Greg and he had definitely picked up the pace. I would have sworn I could see sparks on the guy. he began running 8 and outs like water through a funnel.
Finally Andy announced, that's it and Dick went nuts as I thin we won about 12 games and by now it was like 9 AM. Dick crawled out of those Bibs and walked out onto Santa Fe Drive, butt assed naked and stood under the traffic light. He just stood there.
Andy told me to go get him and I said,"hell no, I ain't going near no naked psycho!!"
Well the cops showed up and called an ambulance and they put a white jacket on him and I didn't hear his name for several months.
ANdy borrowed $20 and drove to the Springs and Greg was still practicing and wanted to go hit some bars at 10 AM.
That little episode darn near made me give up pool altogether.
I bet Grady would remember this one!

Oh, to let some know how much Greg Liked the whites, I counted them and he had taken 32 of them. This is back when they were the real deal!
 
ironman said:
I was pretty young when I met Greg and we ran around mostly Denver and a few spots near by.
In those days matches just went longer, 24 hour sets were pretty common.
One night Greg got into a game with Dick Henry from Colorado Spgs and Andy De Jesus was staking him. Andy was known to pack pretty good, so we got excited. The game though turned out to be $80.00 1 pocket.
This turned out to be the ugliest game ever played. BOth are complete lunatics and every time one comes to the table it is just lock and load and here we go. Dick is wearing bibs with flip flops and Greg has on plaeated slacks, a white shirt, and about size 14 wing tip shoes.
Greg, comes over an whispers, "he ain't wearing nothing under them bibs"!
"Greg, I don't care" I said.
"No really he ain't wearing nothing under there, look when he bends over to shoot" Says Greg!
i say, "Greg, I don't want to look"!
Well, it rattled Greg and Dick won like 6 games in a row. Then Greg starts complaining about being tired.
This hippy type walks in and Greg sends me to talk to the guy. The guy hands me a plastic bag and little did I know it was 100 of the little white crosses. The guy demands $15.00 and I pay him. He turns and walks out the door.
Greg grabs me by the arm and drags me in the bathroom and I hand over the goods. he opens the bag and pours a mouth full down his throat and I mean a mouth full. He told me what they were and having never tried it, I took one and in about 30 minutes my hair was growing fast.
I looked at Greg and he had definitely picked up the pace. I would have sworn I could see sparks on the guy. he began running 8 and outs like water through a funnel.
Finally Andy announced, that's it and Dick went nuts as I thin we won about 12 games and by now it was like 9 AM. Dick crawled out of those Bibs and walked out onto Santa Fe Drive, butt assed naked and stood under the traffic light. He just stood there.
Andy told me to go get him and I said,"hell no, I ain't going near no naked psycho!!"
Well the cops showed up and called an ambulance and they put a white jacket on him and I didn't hear his name for several months.
ANdy borrowed $20 and drove to the Springs and Greg was still practicing and wanted to go hit some bars at 10 AM.
That little episode darn near made me give up pool altogether.
I bet Grady would remember this one!

Oh, to let some know how much Greg Liked the whites, I counted them and he had taken 32 of them. This is back when they were the real deal!
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Ironman, I like your stories better than mine! :grin:
 
> Weren't both Don Willis and Harold Worst eventually barred out of the 9-ball ring games at Johnston City?

All I have to go on are the other stories that have been passed to me first-hand,and most of those say Buddy in Shreveport was in fact the man. Other than Parica playing rotation,Buddy is the only person I've ever heard of that has spotted Mike Sigel and liked it.

That's pretty strong,considering I believe Mike to be the greatest player of ALL time,at least my lifetime.

Buddy also gave weight to the ONLY player I've ever seen in my life that I never saw miss a ball.

I saw Louie play exactly twice. The first time,he came in,threw out 9 balls,and ran out for over an hour without ever missing a ball. The second time,I only saw him hit one ball that day,but the shot was memorable,and he made it.

Buddy gave him the 7? a couple times,then eventually adjusted it,but busted Louie repeatedly.

It's almost hard to imagine trying to spot a player of that speed. Buddy did that a LOT. With that being the case,I'd have to say Buddy in the context of this debate. Tommy D.
 
banged up said:
Looking for opinions of the best 9 ball player FOR THE CHEESE from any era.

not hypotheticals of worst vs duel etc. Just who dominated there era the best at nine ball for the cash.
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Clem Metz was one of the best money players of all times. Vernon Elliot was no slouch either!
 
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