Difference between wood to wood and wood to steel joints, and so on?

M

mincho

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What are the real differences between wood-wood and wood-steel joints, and so on? Pros/Cons? I've heard wood-steel joints are more consistent, give you more power and control whereas wood-wood give you more feedback.

How much of this is truth and how much is fluff, or exaggeration? Feel free to share any thoughts/experiences.
 
Do not forget to take into account the type of pin used, and whether the joint is flat faced or piloted.
 
mincho said:
What are the real differences between wood-wood and wood-steel joints, and so on? Pros/Cons? I've heard wood-steel joints are more consistent, give you more power and control whereas wood-wood give you more feedback.

How much of this is truth and how much is fluff, or exaggeration? Feel free to share any thoughts/experiences.
Click to expand...

Personally I like a flat faced ivory joint with a 3/8ths x 10 pin.
Two of my new cues on order have the same configuration but they will have the 3/8ths x 11 radial pin.

I have and enjoy playing with piloted steel joints with the brass inserts in the shafts my Richard Black is like that. But I prefer the Ivory joint.

I don't believe it really makes a difference in that it will cause you to play better or worse.

What I do think is the difference is in the feedback the cue gives you when you hit a ball and possibly the sound it makes when you make contact with the cue ball. There's more to the "hit"/"Feel" of a cue than the joint. The ferrule and tip combination are also important considerations.

I believe the best thing you can do is try as many cues as you can and figure out what tip/ferrule/shaft taper and diameter/joint and pin configuration work for you.

Good Luck
 
I have never played with a cue that had an ivory joint or ferrule. So take that into mind in the following statement.

Of all the cues I've bought or sampled, I love the hit of my wood-to-wood Uni-Loc joint 8pt Predator over all of them. It's great that it deflects less than other cues, but the feel is BIG reason I love that cue. It's got an Elkmaster tip on it, 314-2 shaft.

Again, the lower deflection is nice, but the FEEL is where it's at. Never gonna sell that cue!
 
bignick31985 said:
I have never played with a cue that had an ivory joint or ferrule. So take that into mind in the following statement.

Of all the cues I've bought or sampled, I love the hit of my wood-to-wood Uni-Loc joint 8pt Predator over all of them. It's great that it deflects less than other cues, but the feel is BIG reason I love that cue. It's got an Elkmaster tip on it, 314-2 shaft.

Again, the lower deflection is nice, but the FEEL is where it's at. Never gonna sell that cue!
Click to expand...

I also have a Predator with a wood to wood uni-loc joint,
I have a 314-2 shaft, but I play with the original 314 with a triangle tip.
The feeling is mutual about selling mine
 
I just want to clear one thing up, Uni-loc is not a wood to wood joint. Any cue that has an insert in the shaft that is not wood is not a wood to wood joint. Even if there is some wood touching from the joint and shaft it is a misleading idea that some production shops have tried to capitalize on. Radial, 3/8-10, 3/8-11, and some other "acme" non-traditional thread types are the only true wood to wood joints.

For those who have there idea's that if a cue has a metal pin then it can't be wood to wood, NO, it's about what's in the shaft really.

This subject has been debated before, and usually the only people who fight/defend the the other are not cue makers.

To answer the original posters? Wood to wood usually does have more feedback and feel, but at the same time it does depend on the wood in the forearm also. and there are different building techniques and materials that when used can give cue's different feel and weight balance. I don't use metal collars on my 3/8-10 or radial joints for the reason that to use these joint's would imply you want the cue to have less interference or dampening of the feel. I believe that metal joint's interfere and dampen some of the feel in the hit of cue's.

Remember, theres alway's something that can be nit-picked or precieved another way in what I say. And I have had some Steel jointed cue's that hit great. So it's all what you like. Try as many cue's as you can, and from different makers.
 
They're all really good if the cue is built nicely. I couldn't make up my mind which is best if I had to.
 
I have a Lucasi Uni lock with a wood Cocobolo piloted joint,Cocobolo forearm and a Triangle tip.I also have a Pechauer with a steel piloted joint,maple forearm and a 3/4" ivory ferule with a Moori tip.
The Lucasi hits a little softer and the Pechauer a little firmer.
These two cues are very far a part in how they are configured yet the difference in the hit is very small.
 
Hmm wood too wood it's the feel
Brass play a little softer to me .
It depens on what feels good to you..
 
1pRoscoe said:
That's like saying, "I've never had sex without a condom".

Ivory ferrule + stainless steel joint = perfection
Click to expand...

It still amazes me that after all these years in this sport, the "one size fits all" advocacy (extremism, actually) in our sport knows almost no bounds...

-Sean
 
Hi Bryan,
I have no intentions of crossing swords with you on this, or anyone else for that matter but your statement that a shaft that has an insert can't be a W/W joint I feel is incorrect.

RFisher said:
I just want to clear one thing up, Uni-loc is not a wood to wood joint. Any cue that has an insert in the shaft that is not wood is not a wood to wood joint. Even if there is some wood touching from the joint and shaft it is a misleading idea that some production shops have tried to capitalize on. Radial, 3/8-10, 3/8-11, and some other "acme" non-traditional thread types are the only true wood to wood joints.

For those who have there idea's that if a cue has a metal pin then it can't be wood to wood, NO, it's about what's in the shaft really.

This subject has been debated before, and usually the only people who fight/defend the the other are not cue makers.
Click to expand...

As you know, I'm a CM and have been for more that 20 yrs.
Whether a jnt is W/W has nothing to do with the pin (or insert).
It's about the mating surfaces of the shaft and handle.
If the wood surface of the shaft comes in contact with the wood surface of the handle then that cue's jnt is considered W/W regardless of the pin configuration that is making that connection. Pin & insert has nothing to do with it.
The Predator 8pt previously referred to is a W/W jnt.
A TS sneaky, even though it has a 14 TPI pin into an insert is very much a W/W jnt. unless a SS jnt collar has been installed, in which case there is no W/W contact across the jnt.
The distinction has nothing to do with the pin or whether that pin is accompanied by an insert. The pin has one job and one job only. To keep the shaft securely connected to the handle. It doesn't matter what that pin's TPI is or whether it has an insert. It only has to bring the two mating surfaces together and hold them there, the tighter the better. It's the wood contact on the mating surfaces that determines whether the jnt is W/W or not.
Even a SS collar that is 'sleeved' over a wood tenon would be considered a W/W jnt as long as the exposed wood mating surface of the shaft comes into contact with a corresponding exposed wood surface within the SS sleeved collar.

We can debate this further if you like and I promise to be civil.
I also think that this question might be better asked in the CM's section where we'd get responses from people who deal with this stuff on a daily basis for a living. I'm all for a good discussion when it leads to a better understanding.
 
mincho said:
What are the real differences between wood-wood and wood-steel joints, and so on? Pros/Cons? I've heard wood-steel joints are more consistent, give you more power and control whereas wood-wood give you more feedback.

How much of this is truth and how much is fluff, or exaggeration? Feel free to share any thoughts/experiences.
Click to expand...

My experience is that those who say such generalizations don't pay attention enough or don't try out enough of a range.

There are plenty of cuemakers who build a steel joint that you'd swear was wood-to-wood, as well as wood-to-wood joints that you'd think were made of rocks.

There's more to cuemaking then just putting the joint in. There have been plenty of reports of blind testing that proves that without seeing the joint, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Fred <~~~ no experience
 
1pRoscoe said:
That's like saying, "I've never had sex without a condom".

Ivory ferrule + stainless steel joint = perfection
Click to expand...

Been there, done that my man and I can tell you, the shaft I had deflected worse than anything imaginable.
Do they all do this? I gave up after that one.
 
RFisher said:
I just want to clear one thing up, ... Any cue that has an insert in the shaft that is not wood is not a wood to wood joint.

This subject has been debated before, and usually the only people who fight/defend the the other are not cue makers..
Click to expand...

Odd... I wonder if you're the only cuemaker who thinks this. Both Huebler and Meucci cues are considered wood-to-wood due to their flat-faced, high wood-to-wood contact surface, and have been considered (by the cuemaker) as such for decades. Three or four decades. Both have inserts. That's going to be a tough reconcilliation for you.

As far as I know, the origin of the term "wood-to-wood" joint was a description that came after the first joints of American pool cues started out with a metal contact surface (brass, stainless, etc) and zero wood-to-wood contact. The idea of the insert (with or without) had nothing to do with the description. Meucci and Huebler pioneered the wood-to-wood joint with threaded insert. Harvey Martin and Jim McDermott pioneered the wood-to-wood big pin into a threaded bare shaft.

Fred
 
bignick31985 said:
Of all the cues I've bought or sampled, I love the hit of my wood-to-wood Uni-Loc joint 8pt Predator over all of them. It's great that it deflects less than other cues, but the feel is BIG reason I love that cue. It's got an Elkmaster tip on it, 314-2 shaft.
Click to expand...

This is my cue, also, except with the 314 original generation shaft, now with a Talisman H on the end.

I bought this cue because of the lack of a metal insert between the shaft and the butt. Not because of any "hit" quotient, mind you, just because the lack of metal in this area gave the cue the balance I was looking for.

{asside: I saw one gentleman using the abreviation CM. Most likely he meant Cue-Maker, but the first word that came to mind was CerMudgeon! Probably not an accident.}
 
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