Old growth wood
- Thread starter Surly
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Old growth wood is wood harvested after 150 + years of growth. There is still old growth wood in the US.
Old growth wood was wood that was around before our forests were harvested for the first time. They were typically over 100 years old before they were harvested 100-200 years ago. The advantage to old growth wood is that the grain pattern is very tight. This is due to dense population of the trees and slower growth rates that are the result of it. Tighter grain creates stronger wood and more visually appealing appearance. Now they are fishing up old logs from the bottom of lakes and rivers that sunk years ago when they were being floated to the saw mills. These logs are usually well preserved by the water and dried out properly make a great source or wood.
In my opinion your shaft is probably not old growth wood.
http://timelesstimber.com/
Shelby Stanga from Axe Men on The History Channel is supposedly bringing up a huge old log on next weekends episode.
Here is an old growth shaft made by Pat Diveney, the pictures are dark but it shows the difference in wood color.
Shelby Stanga from Axe Men on The History Channel is supposedly bringing up a huge old log on next weekends episode.
Here is an old growth shaft made by Pat Diveney, the pictures are dark but it shows the difference in wood color.
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'Old Growth' wood...and I am assuming you are referring to Maple...is typically that wood which has come from timber that stood at a minimum of 150 years prior to harvesting. In maple, it typically translates to a higher, tighter ring count. Basically, the older the wood, the more tightly compacted the cellulose fibers become...thus creating a more resilient, durable wood.
'Lake/River Salvaged' wood is not exactly the same thing, as laying submerged in the lake/river bottom changes the wood's properties by introducing mineral deposits. However, with that said...one has to remember that in the old days of logging, it was a common practice to clear-cut the sides of mountains, roll/mule-haul the timber to a water source, such as a lake or river, in order to facilitate transport to the mills via a log float. Log floats were often massive stretches of logs formed into raft-like structures. Often, due to water obstacles/storms, sometimes these structures would break up and some of this timber would sink. It is this timber that is being harvested now and sold as 'Lake Salvage' for a premium. While much of it can and is 'Old Growth'...'Lake/River Salvaged' is not a guarantee that it is.
Older growth wood will be a darker honey color, often have 'sugar' spots...lake salvage will be darker also, but be a little more tan/brown due to the mineral deposits.
Lisa =====> hopes she explained this right.
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I think it should be also noted, that while there is little debate over old growth shafts just 'feeling' better in play...there has been some debate over the lake/river salvaged shafts. I think that with these shafts it may be more hit and miss...some feel that they have a more 'dead' feel to them, and are certainly very stiff. My personal experience with the one Timeless Timber shaft that I own is that while stiff, it plays very lively.
Lisa
As a matter of interest Lisa, how long will it take to season a piece of lake wood before it can be cut and used for shaft wood?
Seems to me that it might take an extraordinary amount of time if its water logged, but then again, maybe not.
Seems to me that it might take an extraordinary amount of time if its water logged, but then again, maybe not.
To be honest...I have not one clue. I am not sure if the distributor, Timeless Timber, is kiln or air drying their wood...or both. They handle several different species of wood, so perhaps the technique for seasoning is different with each.
Perhaps some of the makers here on AZ who have had experience with it will chime in with the requested info.
I will add this...in the Seattle area this year we set a record for temperature variances in one month...going from over 70 degrees to about 0 degrees during that month of November. I played with my Timeless Timber shaft during the entire month, and it stayed straight and true throughout. Not sure about others' experiences...but mine positively sings during play.
Lisa
i have a McD shaft thats about 25 years old and it plays a lot better now than it did when it was new, back in the 80's McD was advertizing their "Kiln" dried shaft wood. That was their pitch, at the time it was real easy to ding any D series McD shaft, now that they have had 20+ years they are becomming good shafts. Cues sweeten up as they age IMO-i'm not alone on this theory either.
As far as "old growth" which was asked in the OP that wasnt part of McD's advertizing, just "Kiln dried". I remember this vividly as McD was the only cues sold where I started playing, I own about 5 or 6 D Series McD's. If you look around online there is probably a scan of the borschure they used to market their cues with.
Cues are much more complicated now than they were 20 years ago, alot of it is marketing. The manufactored shafts are touted like sporting goods these days so the regular guys have to fight back with "Old growth" as their pitch. Alot more marketing and competition has created this. In the earily 70's you just got a Bushka or a Szam or a Stroud and didnt ask questions, you just went and played pool for $$$. Now its all questions, lock smiths, internet wise guys. I'm not one to glorify the past, but pool was better back then, I caught the tail end of things in 85 when I hit the scene.
IMO old wood cues play better, in 1990 or there about I bought a Tad with wood that was 30+ years old at the time and the cue played great, and that cue plays better now than it did in 90. I perfer old shafts to the manufactored shafts most of the time,
my 4 euro's of the day:smile:
Eric
As far as "old growth" which was asked in the OP that wasnt part of McD's advertizing, just "Kiln dried". I remember this vividly as McD was the only cues sold where I started playing, I own about 5 or 6 D Series McD's. If you look around online there is probably a scan of the borschure they used to market their cues with.
Cues are much more complicated now than they were 20 years ago, alot of it is marketing. The manufactored shafts are touted like sporting goods these days so the regular guys have to fight back with "Old growth" as their pitch. Alot more marketing and competition has created this. In the earily 70's you just got a Bushka or a Szam or a Stroud and didnt ask questions, you just went and played pool for $$$. Now its all questions, lock smiths, internet wise guys. I'm not one to glorify the past, but pool was better back then, I caught the tail end of things in 85 when I hit the scene.
IMO old wood cues play better, in 1990 or there about I bought a Tad with wood that was 30+ years old at the time and the cue played great, and that cue plays better now than it did in 90. I perfer old shafts to the manufactored shafts most of the time,
my 4 euro's of the day:smile:
Eric
Eric, I too believe that the more a cue is played, the better it will play over time. It's the same principle as an acoustic guitar...they always sound better after 'opening up'. The only way to 'open up' an acoustic guitar is to play it. Basically this means that the natural resonance of the tone woods begin to improve from the constant vibrations caused by playing.
It is why those old Martins are so highly prized and sought after...they sound like honey dripping from a hive after 50, 60, 70 years of play.
Lisa
Lisa
Ernie Gutierrez who some people think might know a little something about wood, is one that doesn't stock much faith in the whole water salvaged wood craze.
Thanks for your explanation, you know your stuff. That's what makes AZ great.
Thanks
Kevin
Honestly Kevin...I think that while considering either an 'old growth' or a 'lake salvage' (possibly 'old growth') shaft may narrow the field...it really comes down still to hand picking the shaft wood for the particular cue being constructed, to get just the right 'fit', so to speak. This is where a great cue maker can make all the difference. Shaft selection should certainly not be an afterthought once the butt has been completed...they are afterall, two halves that make the whole.
Folks need to understand that whether it is regular Rock Maple, 'Old Growth', or 'Lake Salvage'...there are no guarantees. Wood is wood, and any given piece, or cut off a board, may behave completely differently than another...some so-so, some good, some great, and some flat out amazing.
Kevin - With all the cues that I own I must have close to 30 shafts.
None is like the Timeless Timber shaft for tightness of grain and stiffness, especially for a 12.4 mm shaft... none.
Aged shafts
Is it true that some of the old cuemakers age their shafts for years, even up to a decade? I always heard Schick had his shafts hanging for up to a decade or more.
The cues I owned in the past didn't seem to get dinged up nearly as bad as now. The wood just seems softer, barely bumping them on the table puts a ding in them. I can put a ding in one with my fingernail and I know my old Schick shafts were much harder.
Is it true that some of the old cuemakers age their shafts for years, even up to a decade? I always heard Schick had his shafts hanging for up to a decade or more.
The cues I owned in the past didn't seem to get dinged up nearly as bad as now. The wood just seems softer, barely bumping them on the table puts a ding in them. I can put a ding in one with my fingernail and I know my old Schick shafts were much harder.
LOL
Oh geeez, don't get me and Ernie going on an old wood deal. I once tried to have a conversation with him about LD shaft technology and had him so pissed he couldn't hit a ball! For awhile I claimed LD shaft talk would be my Ernie shark move. I think Ernie's concern about the wet wood was how long it would stay wet considering how long it had been under water (if I remember correctly). He starts some "molecular" explanation and I just shake my head and pretend I get what he's saying.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Kevin
Yes its true. And when the start to cut them, they cut a little and let them set for another period of time. And then cut a little again and let them sit.
Wood moves, no way around it, and if you are a cue maker you really want to do the best you can to insure that most of the movement happened before you shipped your cue to the buyer.
Kevin
Cool beans, always wondered if that was just a myth. Thx
No myth. Ernie Gutierrez has them in barrels and each barrel is in a different step of the process. I'm sure he's not alone in this, and seeing he makes a lot more cues than some makers, his process (which is slow) is probably faster than others.
Searing, for example, probably takes his shafts down 2/1000 every 5 years and probably takes 5 days to do that cut by hand (joke but not a joke).
Kevin
PS: And back to Searing, after the 5th day on that shaft he gets an idea, invents a new process, tosses that shaft blank out, retools,...........
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Appreciate the opinion. I'm so impressed with this old shaft that I was wondering if it was magical, or just characteristic of an aged shaft.
And thanks to Lisa for the precise definition! You're one of those people who knows a little bit about everything, aren't you.
