Archer's View on Diamond tables

Oh, so it goes from the 5 out to even???:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:

We can still see the grass through what little snow we have, and as far as the cold goes, up here we tend to play pool indoors.

Reading and comprehension not a strongsuit? I never said anything about me giving you the 5 out(but I'm sure I could give you a good spot). I said you say people (like JA) are wrong all the time about pool and they could give you the 5 out. I didn't spell it out good enough I guess.

I'm not into the woofing on here so I'll backoff and just assume we'll never meet. I'm not even saying there is anything wrong with Diamond tables. I just get a kick out of a league player making comments about how the pros are wrong all the time because your CTE instructor says so lol...
 
Sorry. Just don't buy it.

Thats OK. There are people out there that don't "buy" evolution either, and I learned long ago to stop attempting to explain the science behind that.

Static electricity can move objects with alot of mass if the charge is sufficient. Ask this kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twP2RhDZkKU

Or this guy, who also mentions the neutral charged item and a charged item.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxZ6AWLpnUw

But you cannot change the mind of some people. I know this from alot of experience.
 
I'm not defending how the Diamond's use to play, that's in the books so-to-speak. What I'm talking about now, is the fact that Johnny AND Earl both like the newer playing Diamond's....because they went through a change in the design of the rails that smoothed out the play of the cushions...making them much more "player" friendly, yet still use the same Artemis cushions. They now play just like the GC's I rebuild with the exception of the slate shelf in the pockets, and a few other differences...but that's because the tables are from different manufactures;)

The 'Earl" comments were recent and all I hear are comments by your followers is about Diamondizing a table. I haave looked at your work and it is definitely first class as to workmanship but this cutting the pocket angles at the wrong angles and such to make the pockets spit out balls is wrong. The pockets should accept the balls snapped down the rails.
 
Another anecdotal point about "static electricity"-induced skids...if there is sufficient charge developed on the balls (powerful enough) to cause the "skid"...would it also not be present at such times that balls come to rest within a small fraction of an inch of one another...thereby causing them to miraculously snap together in mutual attraction?!?!

Tell me how many times you've seen that one!
 
seems like a bad idea to talk like that about a company that supports pool so much


A company that supports itself, is what you should say, they are in it for advertisment hence to sell more tables, tell M.G. he makes a great table but he must support pool and donate the tables to use , cant make a profit on them and i bet he sells cars the next day..........it is always about the money.
 
What was the use of this post? We are talking about skids, which are in fact an issue on any table they are happening on and they tend to happen on Diamonds to a huge degree more then other tables.

Missing a ball because of a skid is not "oh, you should have just beared down more". It is a phenomena that takes place even if the player hits the exact contact point to pot the object ball with the exact spin/speed to get shape on the next ball and the faulty contact between the cueball and object ball screws up the shot. It is NOT something the player can control, unless you think that players changing the way to shoot the ball and NOT playing the proper spin/speed for the best shapeplay JUST in order to avoid a skid is somehow "good" for pool.

I mean hell, if they invent a table where every ball that goes into a pocket bounces off the bottom of the pocket and back out onto the table would you suggest we just all start rolling balls pocket weight instead of fixing the friggin table? You attitude in that post that we should just ignore what might actually be a fixable flaw in the making of what is otherwise a great table is absurd. I don't want pro events decided on who gets less skids, there is enough "luck of the gods" crap that determines matches between two top pros in this game as it is. If we can fix a small part of that and make skill a more critical deciding factor in any way we should do it.

Chill out. I was just being a smart ass.
 
Thats OK. There are people out there that don't "buy" evolution either, and I learned long ago to stop attempting to explain the science behind that.

Static electricity can move objects with alot of mass if the charge is sufficient. Ask this kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twP2RhDZkKU

Or this guy, who also mentions the neutral charged item and a charged item.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxZ6AWLpnUw

But you cannot change the mind of some people. I know this from alot of experience.

Would excessive rubbing the cloth with ones hand increase the charge?
Therefore making these players more prone to it. I dont know I am
just throwing out ideas lol A person could actually ground the table
to do away with this variable I guess. It is interesting though
 
The pocket dye sounds like the most likely culprit,

When I ordered my Diamond table almost two years ago I asked about the dye problem, They told me I could get brown pockets instead and there would be no dye so thats the way I went, I don't get any marks on the balls and I have not noticed a bad skid problem.
I have played on a Diamond with the black pockets and the balls would get black marks and it was difficult to keep the balls clean.

As far as banking short my table seems to be spot on using the diamond system so I never understood what all the fuss was about.
When I play on the GC tables at my local room I do notice they bank a little longer but its very close.

Peace
 
Would excessive rubbing the cloth with ones hand increase the charge?
Therefore making these players more prone to it. I dont know I am
just throwing out ideas lol A person could actually ground the table
to do away with this variable I guess. It is interesting though

http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/static_materials.htm

Human skin and the cloth are both prone to gaining positive charges and thus are not very effective at building a charge via the rubbing of those two materials.
 
I played at TS on the new rail design and still see nearly every bank come quite a bit short, all variety of banks and kicks. This is when the slick new cloth doesn't make them slide on the rail, thereby opening the angle off the rail. No way to fix that.

Is this the first dissenting opinion about the new tables?! Oh hell its gonna be a shit storm!

Chris
 
I played 9 ball and 1 pocket for 4 hours last night and didn't see one skid.

I got newish (two months old) 860, new "Diamonized" pockets and cushions from Glen.

Weird....


your in LA, the tables are wet there, I get maybe one skid every other day in LA.
 
Thats OK. There are people out there that don't "buy" evolution either, and I learned long ago to stop attempting to explain the science behind that.

Static electricity can move objects with alot of mass if the charge is sufficient. Ask this kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twP2RhDZkKU

Or this guy, who also mentions the neutral charged item and a charged item.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxZ6AWLpnUw

But you cannot change the mind of some people. I know this from alot of experience.

The kid's water demonstration is fun and interesting. The pertinent point about it is that, being a liquid, the force is serving to act SEPARATELY (roughly) on each molecule on its own. So you're seeing a "mass effect," and not an "effect on mass."** The "neutral" example is no surprise. It's charge differential that matters, as you've pointed out before.

My ideas on the topic are these:

1) Charge movement (and you need to MOVE charge to GET a static collection of it) is always a surface phenomenon. Therefore, DENSITY is always going to be an important part of the calculations we're talking about. If billiard balls were the density of ping-pong balls the discussion would be VERY different.

2) IMO one couldn't even ENGINEER billiard balls with a surface that could hold so much charge that electrostatic forces due to charge differentials could be meaningful in the motions of the heavy balls on a table.

3) If phenolic had some ultra-super property that allowed for EXTREME charges to be held, you would be sure to be seeing "phenolic capacitors." I've never heard of them.

4) IF billiards balls could hold enough charge on their surface to provide forces large enough to be noticeable in the interactions of balls with different charges that would mean that the "conduction characteristics" of the surfaces would be very conductive, i.e., charge would move into and out of the surface very easily. And that would mean:

a) The charge differences between balls would equalize upon touching almost instantaneously (probably in much LESS than a significant fraction of a microsecond). That time scale is tiny compared to the time scale of actual mechanical interaction between the balls (millisecond scale). And the interaction will ELIMINATE forces by equalizing the charge. So, an adherence due to electrostatic differential would be gone in much LESS than one thousandth of the period over which the balls are interacting mechanically.

b) The charge differences would need to be IMMENSE (don't forget, we're talking about ATTRACTION between balls, not REPULSION), and you would get arcing/sparking. BIG sparks. Sparks so big they might set tables on fire--if the electrostatic difference was enough to put significant forces on the balls. So big they would make burn spots (or melted spots!) on the balls. And....so big that the local air, heated to the point of plasma creation, would, by the mini-explosion, actually produce a REPULSION between the balls....which would induce the opposite effect of skid on the balls.

I'd be interested in reading an engineering report of someone claiming electrostatic forces on billiard balls induce perceptible changes in their kinetic characteristics. But until then I'll stick with the qualitative estimations I made above.

EDIT: And a simpler way to think about it: If the electrostatic charges were strong enough to cause changes in the physical movements between balls, you would be able to see it by, for example, moving balls very close to each other and watching them attract like magnets. That's not seen. Could it be enough just to "enhance friction?" Well, if so, the effect would be so short-lived (before the charges equalized) that it would be imperceptible, as I inferred above.


**And don't forget, if that kid's balloon is, say, a sphere of 4" in radius (and the ability to hold a charge is about the same as a billiard ball--in fact it's probably GREATER than a billiard ball), then the balloon could hold over TWELVE TIMES the charge a pool ball of 1 1/8" radius could hold.
 
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First of all, let me say that statement would be more valuable if Johnny had made it instead of you.

As far as sharing goes...as you like to put it, then why don't you SHARE the fact that Johnny Archer....HAS in fact...a Diamond 9ft ProAm in his pool room!...or DIDN'T you know about that?;)

Are you even aware of the fact...that I redesigned the playing conditions of the rails on all Diamond tables?...or are you just interested in trying to stir the pot here on AZ?

Since the US Open...have you heard one negative comment about Diamond tables....since you like to share/report..what Johnny has to say about Diamond tables?

Here's a little thought for all of you who think Diamonds skid more than any other tables out here. First of all, all things being equal on Gold Crowns vs Diamond tables, same cloth and all...then ask yourselves what's different between the tables! Hmmmm....MAYBE we should take a look at the balls...COULD there be a major difference between the Brunswick Centennial balls used on a Gold Crown vs the Super Aramith Pro balls used on the Diamond's? YES...there is, the finish don't last on the Super Aramith Pro balls, which in turn with the loss of the finish, the friction factor increases...which in turn, causes cling/hold/ball hop...what ever you want to call it....it even causes balls to hopp off the rails...and play boingy off the cushions....often blamed on the TABLE!!!

So, I say to you....get your damn facts straight....go ask Johnny Archer....if he even knows who you are...what he thinks about Diamond tables...paticularly...the DIAMOND PROAM in his pool room!!!

You..."overheard"....Johnny....and took that to be FACT reporting...a year later?????

Glen, the "Realkingcobra"
I have been to Johnny's pool room

38 tables

ONE 9' diamond
ONE 7' diamond
all the rest are Olhausen & Gold Crown....

During the Seminole he hosted last fall, they covered the diamond and used it as a work bench for the tournament stuff

Just saying...
 
Amazing how you could possibly believe you know more about anything on a pool table than Johnny Archer. What I THINK they know is 1000x what you know. I've listened enough to top players over the years to realize they understand things about the game the rest of us don't. You can keep practicing in your garage and second guess the pros who travel all over the world and play on every table/ball combination imaginable or you can open up your mind and realize you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

I don't know whether JA really even said the anything bad about diamonds but if I heard him say it, I'd listen and try to educate myself.
well said...

those that can't do...
 
You want to sit here and tell everyone how they should play and how they are wrong when they can spot you the 5 out.

The part in blue is your statement also. I'm not the only one that took it the way you said it. As to your other statement, I don't even play in leagues, and your part after that, well..... that's just plain ludicrous. If you don't think I can play at all, and you think my advice that I freely give on here is B.S., then please put me on ignore.

I'm 56 and can't even read the numbers on the balls anymore. But, I can still play a little.;) The last pro I played was McCready, and I lost 10-8. That was in 2004 at the Glass City Open.

Sorry guys about the derailment, just trying to set the record straight a little.

Did you tell me I was wrong about anything or how I should play? Then how did "I" say I could give you the 5 out? You said the "pros" are wrong all the time. Let's just call it a misunderstanding and let the thread get back on track.

I'll take your advice for once and let you join the only other person I've put on ignore, JB Cases. That's about how foolish and arrogant your posts seem to me.
 
What's the date today? When did this comment from Johnny Archer take place?...that's my problem;) Diamond has made many changes in their tables over the last year...enough so that this post should have never been brought up a year later...as you...are the first to air this comment from Johnny. And furthermore....failed to find out that Johnny has a Diamond ProAm...."worst" table....in his pool room for that matter. Don't mean to jump you...but as far as I'm concerned...this is out of date!;)

If its out of date, dont waste your time on it. I don't care when the comment was make, I was offended as a Diamond table owner. Diamond has made improvements, but my diamond is 4 yrs old and doesn't have these "improvements" and it plays just fine.

Of course johhny has a pro am at his house, he has to play on them in most of the tournys. It makes sense to practice with what you play on, even if you dont prefer it. judt saying. Relax.
 
Weird, but I just ran across this article flipping thru the October 2006 issue of Pool & Billiard magazine: "How'd I Miss That" Preventing Skid...by Buddy Hall. Some observations:

" If you ever watched a Pro tournament played on new cloth you have probably heard a player complain after a miss: "That ball skidded on me." Skidding is a phenomenon that occurs when the friction between the cue ball and the object ball is so great that the two balls stick together long enough to throw the object ball off it's intended path."

" First, the consensus among players is that skidding is caused by a combination of dirty balls on a slick cloth."

" For the cue ball and the object ball to stick together for that instant almost always requires one of the balls to be dirty."

"Also, inside English, since it has the effect of "throwing" the object ball, can really increase the effect of a skid."



Hope you don't mind Buddy................
 
Weird, but I just ran across this article flipping thru the October 2006 issue of Pool & Billiard magazine: "How'd I Miss That" Preventing Skid...by Buddy Hall. Some observations:

" If you ever watched a Pro tournament played on new cloth you have probably heard a player complain after a miss: "That ball skidded on me." Skidding is a phenomenon that occurs when the friction between the cue ball and the object ball is so great that the two balls stick together long enough to throw the object ball off it's intended path."

" First, the consensus among players is that skidding is caused by a combination of dirty balls on a slick cloth."

" For the cue ball and the object ball to stick together for that instant almost always requires one of the balls to be dirty."

"Also, inside English, since it has the effect of "throwing" the object ball, can really increase the effect of a skid."



Hope you don't mind Buddy................

2006? you cant use this information, according to RKC, this information is out of date and is no longer valid, you will have to have had to speak to buddy in person within the last 24 hours. lol
 
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