Are Moori & Kamui tips really worth the money or is it all hype?
- Thread starter jmurphy
- Start date
You are wrong. Efren uses an ElkMaster.
Elasticity is key
Hello,
People seem to be very fond of your tips. Are there reasons you feel the layered design should be a better playing tip than a single piece? And what do you guys feel your product offers over other manufacturers of layered tips? And, any comment on why you feel a Kamui may outperform a favorite single piece tip like a triangle?
Thanks!
Elasticity is key
I have a question regarding the tanning process of kamui tips? the lepro tips are "vegetable-tanned oak leather" is this process different then what kamui tips use????
For me the best of both worlds would be a layered "Pig Skin" "vegetable-tanned oak leather" tip. But, I have searched and never found any????
For those interested in the process here is the link to wikipedia regarding tanning methods!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanning
Also, if this type of tip does not exist! Is it possible to have some made? maybe a limited experimental run????
Kid Dynomite
Sincerely,
kid dynomite
Hi Enzo,
Happy Holidays. Thank you for your question.
The graph attached explains the extensive research we have been doing since KAMUI™ has started. We understood, that to be the best, we had to understand the best. From there, we took a great deal of time to understand the chemistry of the leather we use and how we should process the leather. What gives us the competitive edge is the end product having "playability and consistency".
Happy Holidays. Thank you for your question.
The graph attached explains the extensive research we have been doing since KAMUI™ has started. We understood, that to be the best, we had to understand the best. From there, we took a great deal of time to understand the chemistry of the leather we use and how we should process the leather. What gives us the competitive edge is the end product having "playability and consistency".
We use Vegetable tanning. But our vegetable tanning is custom (secret sauce) to maintain leather stability.
First, thanks for answering the questions..... you obviously have a great product, as many people seem to swear by your tips.
I do have one last question.......
Now, for the sake of argument lets just say that kamui tips do play "better" (here will mean more consistent and durable) than say a triangle. Now, a triangle will cost about a dollar, probably less, but lets just say they cost a dollar. The Kamui's are about 20 dollars (correct me if i'm wrong). So that is 20 times the price point of the triangle.... so, my question....
I'm not sure of the costs you guys endure in the research and production department, but I would love to see the cost of your tips come down myself. Again, assuming kamui tips do in fact play better, one still has to account for the fact that they cost 20 times more. The benefit vs cost ratios just aren't there with your product yet. Is there a good reason the tips cost so much? And if so, could you explain why? Also, any current plans to become more competitive on the price-point in the very near future?
Thanks again!
For Kamui tips to work, you need to have the flex the tip offers when applying any form of spin. Coming from the UK, a lot of people (because of Snooker & English Pool) have their tips quite low on their ferrules. I dont know the reason for this, but it happens.
With my tips I have, I install the tip, trim etc. then shape...once I have shaped the top of the tip so the flat spot has just disapeared...I leave it and play.
Layered tips would have a lot more reviews (good ones) if people didnt take down the tips so much...IMO.
Just my 2 cents worth here. Kamui are probably the leading brand of pool cue tips in American Pool at this present moment in time. If you want quality, then surely $20 a tip that you play 3-4 times a week (I dont know if this is what you play per week...just an example), including local leagues, tournaments and tours as well as money matches, and you dont have to change the tip for over a year...$20 a year isnt a lot of money to part with IMO.
Edit - Link to Kamui Tips website to demonstrate why you need to have a higher tip.
http://www.kamuitips.com/video/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZqkaJDaz2A&feature=related - skip to 30seconds in the video to show kamui tan tip applying draw
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I cut a kamui off and replaced it with a Triangle.....diff strokes
for diff folks
for diff folks
Most deffinately. But what I would be eager to learn is what tips for what strokes?
Most deffinately. But what I would be eager to learn is what tips for what strokes?
That is dam interesting. I would think it has merit
As they say, your milage may vary. These tips are worth the money, but whether they are the best choices for you is a matter of personal preference, as others have noted.
A lot of people love their choice of tip and will swear by them, and will swear that their choice is the best for you... But really only you can determine what is best for you.
It's worth trying different tips over time to find what works best for you, but it's a pain of course due to not being able to just settle on a tip and just playing the game. There are a lot of variables, like how much action is imparted on the cue ball, how much feel there is when the tip hits the ball, longevity of tip, mushrooming, glazing, ability to hold chaulk, etc... Even your pool skill level can affect what tip might be a good choice.
My first cue had a medium Triangle, which I liked. It had a moderate amount of action, so was easier to shoot strait with my crappy stroke, also couldn't impart as much English as with some other tips. It last quite a while, despite my obsessive habit of using a shaper to "fix-up" the tip all the time. At the time my skills were pretty sloppy and unrefined so this was a very forgiving tip for me.
Another tip I had for a while was a medium Le Professional, which plenty of people like but I didn't care for it. I think it's just me though. For some reason I felt a bit disconnected from the ball when shooting with it... It felt dead. Not a good description, but that's the best I could describe it as.
I have a Moori medium now and love it. I can really feel it connect with the ball, and it provides plenty of action compared the other tips I've used. It has also last quite a while, though that may be more because it's a thick tip vs being durable. I've used up 3/4 of the tip and it feels hard now so I'm about to replace it again, maybe with another brand just to try out something else. But with my current skill set this is a great tip, allows me to be fairly aggressive without over-imparting action on the cue ball.
To sum it up... get experimental
A lot of people love their choice of tip and will swear by them, and will swear that their choice is the best for you... But really only you can determine what is best for you.
It's worth trying different tips over time to find what works best for you, but it's a pain of course due to not being able to just settle on a tip and just playing the game. There are a lot of variables, like how much action is imparted on the cue ball, how much feel there is when the tip hits the ball, longevity of tip, mushrooming, glazing, ability to hold chaulk, etc... Even your pool skill level can affect what tip might be a good choice.
My first cue had a medium Triangle, which I liked. It had a moderate amount of action, so was easier to shoot strait with my crappy stroke, also couldn't impart as much English as with some other tips. It last quite a while, despite my obsessive habit of using a shaper to "fix-up" the tip all the time. At the time my skills were pretty sloppy and unrefined so this was a very forgiving tip for me.
Another tip I had for a while was a medium Le Professional, which plenty of people like but I didn't care for it. I think it's just me though. For some reason I felt a bit disconnected from the ball when shooting with it... It felt dead. Not a good description, but that's the best I could describe it as.
I have a Moori medium now and love it. I can really feel it connect with the ball, and it provides plenty of action compared the other tips I've used. It has also last quite a while, though that may be more because it's a thick tip vs being durable. I've used up 3/4 of the tip and it feels hard now so I'm about to replace it again, maybe with another brand just to try out something else. But with my current skill set this is a great tip, allows me to be fairly aggressive without over-imparting action on the cue ball.
To sum it up... get experimental
As they say, your milage may vary. These tips are worth the money, but whether they are the best choices for you is a matter of personal preference, as others have noted.
A lot of people love their choice of tip and will swear by them, and will swear that their choice is the best for you... But really only you can determine what is best for you.
It's worth trying different tips over time to find what works best for you, but it's a pain of course due to not being able to just settle on a tip and just playing the game. There are a lot of variables, like how much action is imparted on the cue ball, how much feel there is when the tip hits the ball, longevity of tip, mushrooming, glazing, ability to hold chaulk, etc... Even your pool skill level can affect what tip might be a good choice.
My first cue had a medium Triangle, which I liked. It had a moderate amount of action, so was easier to shoot strait with my crappy stroke, also couldn't impart as much English as with some other tips. It last quite a while, despite my obsessive habit of using a shaper to "fix-up" the tip all the time. At the time my skills were pretty sloppy and unrefined so this was a very forgiving tip for me.
Another tip I had for a while was a medium Le Professional, which plenty of people like but I didn't care for it. I think it's just me though. For some reason I felt a bit disconnected from the ball when shooting with it... It felt dead. Not a good description, but that's the best I could describe it as.
I have a Moori medium now and love it. I can really feel it connect with the ball, and it provides plenty of action compared the other tips I've used. It has also last quite a while, though that may be more because it's a thick tip vs being durable. I've used up 3/4 of the tip and it feels hard now so I'm about to replace it again, maybe with another brand just to try out something else. But with my current skill set this is a great tip, allows me to be fairly aggressive without over-imparting action on the cue ball.
To sum it up... get experimental
A load of Top players use triangle tips, I have played with about everything under the sun in my 22 years of serious play and have always
went back to my triangle. Some people like moori and kamui and that
is good. I would be real hesitant in associating a triangle with a lower
skill level. That would be false
With that new Gator Grip tip tool from Kamui, even if you shape your tip after each shot there is no reason that you shouldn't get 5 years out of your tip! Good news is you'll get your money's worth, bad news is you'll fall out of touch with you're local cue repair guy.
http://www.kamuitips.com/store/Details.cfm?ProdID=75&category=7
It doesn't wear your tip out at all. Also it takes longer for me to get it out of my case than it does to use it.
I had a new uncut Kamui Super Soft, which really stuck out far. After trying too many of Earl's stroke shots, it came off. (Why? I'm not sure. Maybe I was hitting the ball too far out on the cue ball for how hard I was stroking it.) When we put it back on we took a couple layers off of it, and also I have been more careful = less stroke shots, lol. I'm not sure how many layers were taken off but it looks about a normal size now lol.
I previously had a Sniper tip, and was simply miscuing waaay too much. I had a friend who had a Kamui medium, which hit like Mike Tyson. He had to get it cut off. After my Sniper tip problems, I was afraid to get something too hard again. So I went with the Super Soft.
I'm very pleased with the Kamui SS. When I first got the tip, I enjoyed playing with all the extra english I was able to apply to the cue ball. I've pulled off some extreme english shots that I wouldn't have been able to do with any other tip. The tip reaches out and grabs the cue ball, with both hands. This is speculation, but I think it had to do with how many layers there are, as I noticed I haven't been able to generate as much english since i had some layers removed.
http://www.kamuitips.com/store/Details.cfm?ProdID=75&category=7
It doesn't wear your tip out at all. Also it takes longer for me to get it out of my case than it does to use it.
I had a new uncut Kamui Super Soft, which really stuck out far. After trying too many of Earl's stroke shots, it came off. (Why? I'm not sure. Maybe I was hitting the ball too far out on the cue ball for how hard I was stroking it.) When we put it back on we took a couple layers off of it, and also I have been more careful = less stroke shots, lol. I'm not sure how many layers were taken off but it looks about a normal size now lol.
I previously had a Sniper tip, and was simply miscuing waaay too much. I had a friend who had a Kamui medium, which hit like Mike Tyson. He had to get it cut off. After my Sniper tip problems, I was afraid to get something too hard again. So I went with the Super Soft.
I'm very pleased with the Kamui SS. When I first got the tip, I enjoyed playing with all the extra english I was able to apply to the cue ball. I've pulled off some extreme english shots that I wouldn't have been able to do with any other tip. The tip reaches out and grabs the cue ball, with both hands. This is speculation, but I think it had to do with how many layers there are, as I noticed I haven't been able to generate as much english since i had some layers removed.
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Hi Peteypooldue,
Understood. To be clear, I wasn't attempting to say that the Triangle tip, or any tip for that matter, is only good for lower skill players. To clarify, in may case the different tips made a difference in my progression.
Because my stroke used to be very sloppy it was typical for me to impart a lot of unintended English on the cue ball which would screw up not only my straight shots, but also my draw in a horrid way. A tip that has more action would amplify these problems.
While the proper thing to do is to clean-up ones stroke, having a more forgiving tip is something I appreciated in the months it took to work on my stroke. The qualities of the Triangle just made my life easier as I was trying to get a handle on things.
So while the Triangle is good for anybody who wants it's particular properties, it was also useful for me and for addressing my stroke problem. As for my comment about having more skills now and enjoying the Moori for that, it's only because I want to amplify the action I'm putting on the cue ball now that I have better control in my stroke, and I feel as though the Moori does that for me.
I would definitely not consider it a downgrade to play with Triangle, it would simply provide different strengths in play.
Hope that makes more sense.
On an aside, I noted that the Le Pro wasn't so good for me. I remember discussing the matter with one of the local hall "experts" and he had told me that at the time at least there was some known consistancy problems with Le Pro tips, where as much as 1 out of 3 were not up to snuff. Taking his comments at face value, it may be why I had a problem with my Le Professional tip.
Cheers,
Abs
You have raised a really good point. For this reason I developed the taper seat tip system. It allows users to try many different tips on the same cue and to change back and forth without effecting the playability like previous screw on tips did.
As everyone has a different perception of what they like, it becomes possible to find the correct tip to shaft combination that they like the best.
Moori, Kamui, Tiger, Hussar and other makers, all make a good quality product.The hardest question, is this the best tip for me at this point in time and on this table .
Sure ,it means some initial outlay, and to have different tips made up.The benefit is you will find what works best for you,instead of having to readapt and compromise because of the condidtions.
You can also have specialty tips for particular shots, having another cue with that setup, if your rules allow the use of more than 1 cue in a game.
Another advantage is test consistency of the tips you want to adapt to as your main player.
I have found that while some non layer tips, may play well , it becomes difficult to have 4 that play the same,on the same cue.The better laminated tips are very consistent from tip to tip,at least from the same batch/box.
It is possible to find the tip that will be best with your stroke with a particular cue shaft if it has our tip system on it.
I am certain with the range of tips that companies like Kamui make, you could find what is best for you.
Have a Happy New Year.
Neil Lickfold
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I've had the most consistent results from Triangles so far. Although, as some have said, you can get a bad one (or several) in a batch. I have tried Mooris too. The mediums end up hardening way too much and I have to scuff several times in one playing session, which is ridiculous. I have theorized though that the high humidity in this area has something to do with that. I switched to Moori soft and it hardened up to a medium, which was perfect. I have yet to try Kamui and I think on my next tip change I will give it a go I have heard and read a lot of great reviews for them.
HI Enzo,
Thank you for your question. And I appreciate your time asking.
You really can not make a comparison between an apple and an orange. The Kamui tip is harder to make and much more costly. I had the very same question with the manufacture 7 years ago. And the answer I got was this.... Why be in business if we are just making another layered tip... What's the point? We have done our research of over 100 different tips.... YES over 100. I am still shocked of how many are out there. What made me a believer in the Kamui product is the value I get as a player. I have a tip that lasts me a longer period of time than the other brands, is consistent throughout it's life and consistent when replaced with the same tip. Kamui does not have a mushroom problem and it holds onto chalk, also humidity resistant. These virtues have been part of the Kamui brand and yes I have been marketing the virtues of the brand. But, look at the responses of the players. If the players do not believe in the product like I did 7 years ago... We would not be here.
We are here for one reason, to provide the best "Playable and Consistent" product on the market.
----Side note----
I have to admit I am impressed with the Japanese work ethic of producing a product that really works. I was floored to see the QC protocol sheets used for pre-production of the leather and post-production of the Kamui Tip. Imagine an Excel sheet with 500+lines of items to check off to produce a tip. And if it is not right(any part) the tips get thrown away... We have a high waste. I could not imagine an American company to be able to take a protocol list like Kamui and produce the same tip for the same price or cheaper... From what I saw, not possible. Did you know that each Kamui Tip has a serial number? Yes, Every Kamui tip produced today has a serial number that relates to a born-on-date. This serial number will tell us how the tip was constructed and what the temperature of the environment, humidity in the factory, what the pig's diet was... everything. IMHO, the tips are worth the $.
Thank you for your question. And I appreciate your time asking.
You really can not make a comparison between an apple and an orange. The Kamui tip is harder to make and much more costly. I had the very same question with the manufacture 7 years ago. And the answer I got was this.... Why be in business if we are just making another layered tip... What's the point? We have done our research of over 100 different tips.... YES over 100. I am still shocked of how many are out there. What made me a believer in the Kamui product is the value I get as a player. I have a tip that lasts me a longer period of time than the other brands, is consistent throughout it's life and consistent when replaced with the same tip. Kamui does not have a mushroom problem and it holds onto chalk, also humidity resistant. These virtues have been part of the Kamui brand and yes I have been marketing the virtues of the brand. But, look at the responses of the players. If the players do not believe in the product like I did 7 years ago... We would not be here.
We are here for one reason, to provide the best "Playable and Consistent" product on the market.
----Side note----
I have to admit I am impressed with the Japanese work ethic of producing a product that really works. I was floored to see the QC protocol sheets used for pre-production of the leather and post-production of the Kamui Tip. Imagine an Excel sheet with 500+lines of items to check off to produce a tip. And if it is not right(any part) the tips get thrown away... We have a high waste. I could not imagine an American company to be able to take a protocol list like Kamui and produce the same tip for the same price or cheaper... From what I saw, not possible. Did you know that each Kamui Tip has a serial number? Yes, Every Kamui tip produced today has a serial number that relates to a born-on-date. This serial number will tell us how the tip was constructed and what the temperature of the environment, humidity in the factory, what the pig's diet was... everything. IMHO, the tips are worth the $.
Great inside information!
---
A question from me if you will...
Are Kamui looking to expand out more with their tips and design Jump/Break Tips? Be interesteing to know where the company is going also