Where is your cue's balance point?

[Bob Callahan]

A recent poll showed that most players are more aware of balance differences than weight differences (Which is more important to you--balance or weight?). Checking the For Sale section here, it seems that a lot of cues are balanced very close to 19 inches, measured from the butt--which is 39 inches, measured from the tip on a 58" cue. For lots of reasons, it's probably better to measure from the tip. Some cues are longer, and some are shorter than 58 inches. Add to that, that some cues which are supposed to be 58", really aren't. Changing shafts can make a big difference, too. For instance, changing to a 30" LD shaft, moved the balance point of my wife's Joss 2" back.

It'd be hard to believe that Gabe Owen and Nick Varner need the same balance point.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what folks are using, so grab that ruler!

 

[poolplayer2093]

first off i'd like to say "That's what she said". i have basic specs for almost every cue i've ever owned. 19 seems to be perfect for me. i think the cue i'm using now is at 18.75 but it's a half inch shorter than most cues

 

[LAlouie]

The balance point is measured from the butt !

 

[Grilled Cheese]

Excellent thread!


Too many players confuse balance for differences in weight. I used to be that way myself until I bought a very precise scale and realized that some cues I thought to be different were the same in weight, but had about 1.5" of balance difference. Which is significant.

Which means that the cue's weight is perceived in a sense. At least for myself. How your hand/arm holds the cue and you "feel" the distribution of the weight and how your muscle memory compensates for that is what I'm trying to describe. When I am used to a particular cue, it almost feels neutral. That is, balanced in the sense that it doesn't feel heavy one way or the other. I can take the same weight cue with a different balance, and no matter what my stance or grip (choke up, or hold at the buttcap) - it feels either butt heavy or forward heavy. I have played with butt heavy cues and very forward heavy cues over the years and one big factor in getting used to a cue is when my stroke and feel for that cue is neutral in weight/balance distribution. That is, one factor in the transition period to a new cue is over with when it begins feeling neutral. Other factors are physical feel (taper, butt thickness, wraps) and playing characteristics like deflection level etc. I don't know about others, but in my case it seems my mind/body is always adjusting toward achieving a neutral feel, regardless of the balance. Exception would be cues that are toward the extreme ends of the balance point spectrum.


Right now my playing cue is exactly 38.5" balance point. Anything 37 - 38" feels too forward to me. Past 39" feels butt heavy. Of what I can get used to, to achieve a "neutral" feel is down to 37.5" and up to about 39"...in that range I can play with a cue and get used to the balance point so that it feels neutral to me. Beyond that range, the cue tends to always feels unbalanced. I'm sure I can eventually adapt, but it goes beyond the amount of time I'm willing to spend adapting. I get frustrated by the alien feel of the cue and give up. The last time I tried, I used a particular cue exclusively for a few months and still couldn't get 100% with it. Balance was out of the range of what I can get used to within a reasonable time. I went back to the previous cue and within a week I was 100% with it. I think the reason is that the weight distribution was causing my muscle memory to work outside of its realm. If that makes sense. Muscle memory takes time to develop and changes are difficult.


Balancing a cue can be tricky, since shafts can easily vary by a 1/4oz or more unless you select a matched pair or go custom.


I've also found that it is significantly easier and quicker to adjust to a new cue if it has the same balance point despite being a different weight. Weight matters no doubt about it. But balance point is more important, at least to me it is. With the same balance point, I can go up or down an ounce (which I consider a big change) and adjust pretty quickly. Balance takes a lot more time.


Just some thoughts. Some people probably think I'm crazy, but I'm happy I've found a way to quantify some of my preferences and understand what can work and what won't.

 

[Grilled Cheese]

I agree with the original poster. Balance point is measured from the TIP ( or better yet, the very end of the ferrule where the tip or tip pad is glued to ). Most of the cuemakers I have spoken to, as well as other knowledgeable cue experts have all measured from the TIP. Not from the butt. This is because cues vary in length. So the constant in a sense, is the tip, which contacts the ball.

 

[LAlouie]

I agree with the original poster. Balance point is measured from the TIP ( or better yet, the very end of the ferrule where the tip or tip pad is glued to ). Most of the cuemakers I have spoken to, as well as other knowledgeable cue experts have all measured from the TIP. Not from the butt. This is because cues vary in length. So the constant in a sense, is the tip, which contacts the ball.

Putting aside whether the BP is measured from tip or butt(tip measure must be something new), there is NO constant from either end ! Whatever the total cue length is, the shaft and butt are equal in length, thus making neither constant(nor one more constant than the other) as they are both dependent on the cue length. There are, however, often requests for longer shafts, so if anything has a variable it will be the shaft.

 

[randyg]

Bob.

Why would I care?

Thanks
randyg

 

[greyghost]

Bob.

Why would I care?

Thanks
randyg

Well randy diff cues have diff characteristics as to how they drive the CB......

a more forward balanced cue is going to be great with spin especially if I were to make myself a cue for shooting artistic shots like masse's I'd make the balance well forward than my normal which is from 18 to 18.5 from the butt end on a 58" cue, I'd make it at 19.5-20 probably.

If a player really only liked to hold the cue way up on the butt then I'd make the balance forward if they still wanted it to "feel" neutral........a more forward balanced cue can aid in helping a player to FINISH the stroke also as the balance is such that it has more predisposition to keep moving forward, I've seen and lightly studied this first hand with players and the cues I build.

I've taken beginers that had the typical problems with bunting and gave them the once over to no avail (you know how it goes no one practices) and then had them shoot with a much more forward balanced cue and it had a definite effect on the problem.

Just like one of the mother drills is only addressing the actual FINISH and that is its goal.........a more forward balanced cue IMOP would be a better training "aid" than a more rear balanced cue for a learning player.

but FACT is that that its pretty much just FEEL.......so there is NO REASON FOR YOU TO CARE lol or anyone else either.........as we both know that artistic stuff is off the radar and in normal play if we can run out with a cue that has a 18" balance then we could do it with one that had a 22" balance......

basically I agree with you rationale Randy but throw me a little insight on what you think on my thoughts and what I've noticed with small research (not claiming truth just a few stats an a hypothesis of mine that hasn't become theory just yet....)

hope your well,
Keebie

 

[alstl]

I don't see what difference it makes whether you measure it from the butt or tip. If you measure it from the butt instead of the tip is it in a different place?

 

[sfleinen]

41.5" balance point on my 27-year-old Mali original

A recent poll showed that most players are more aware of balance differences than weight differences (Which is more important to you--balance or weight?). Checking the For Sale section here, it seems that a lot of cues are balanced very close to 19 inches, measured from the butt--which is 39 inches, measured from the tip on a 58" cue. For lots of reasons, it's probably better to measure from the tip. Some cues are longer, and some are shorter than 58 inches. Add to that, that some cues which are supposed to be 58", really aren't. Changing shafts can make a big difference, too. For instance, changing to a 30" LD shaft, moved the balance point of my wife's Joss 2" back.

It'd be hard to believe that Gabe Owen and Nick Varner need the same balance point.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what folks are using, so grab that ruler!

Bob:

My all-time favorite cue, a 27-year-old Mali that Barry Behrman himself sold me in the early 1980s (out of the original Q-Masters location on Sewell's Point Road in Norfolk, VA) has a balance point of 41.5". Yes, that's right -- the balance point is about a half-inch into the wrap itself. It's balanced like a carom cue, and I quite like that. In fact, I prefer it. It gives the feeling that you're really swinging the cue, and not pushing a steel lath rod through your bridge hand (that's what forward-balanced cues feel like, to me). The 41.5" balance point is without a rubber carom grip installed, btw -- just the assembled cue itself. On other cues I have, I try to manipulate the balance point by either unscrewing the weight bolts to position them more to the rear of the cue (if the weight bolts allow me to do that -- some don't), and also by installing a rubber carom grip more towards the rear of the cue. (The rubber carom grip/tube doesn't weigh all that much, but it's enough to help inch that balance point rearwards just a little bit more -- and, of course, offers superior grip.)

If I get a minute after work in the evening, I'll try to balance the cue on a book of matches standing on edge, and take a picture, so you can see. (I'm at work at the moment, but I did the measuring last night when I saw your thread.)

-Sean

 

[Bob Callahan]

Bob:

My all-time favorite cue, a 27-year-old Mali that Barry Behrman himself sold me in the early 1980s (out of the original Q-Masters location on Sewell's Point Road in Norfolk, VA) has a balance point of 41.5". Yes, that's right -- the balance point is about a half-inch into the wrap itself. It's balanced like a carom cue, and I quite like that. In fact, I prefer it. It gives the feeling that you're really swinging the cue, and not pushing a steel lath rod through your bridge hand (that's what forward-balanced cues feel like, to me). The 41.5" balance point is without a rubber carom grip installed, btw -- just the assembled cue itself. On other cues I have, I try to manipulate the balance point by either unscrewing the weight bolts to position them more to the rear of the cue (if the weight bolts allow me to do that -- some don't), and also by installing a rubber carom grip more towards the rear of the cue. (The rubber carom grip/tube doesn't weigh all that much, but it's enough to help inch that balance point rearwards just a little bit more -- and, of course, offers superior grip.)

If I get a minute after work in the evening, I'll try to balance the cue on a book of matches standing on edge, and take a picture, so you can see. (I'm at work at the moment, but I did the measuring last night when I saw your thread.)

-Sean

Glad to see I'm not the only back-balance guy here. My favorite cues are balanced 41-42 inches from the tip, for the same reasons you give. I also have moved and changed weights to get that on every cue I've owned. Getting a longer shaft helps, too. There is very little information/discussion on the web, or in the literature about balance, which is one of the reasons this poll makes sense. Even cue makers don't share much...one who does is Meucci, who has this to say:

"Therefore, at Meucci Originals, we strive for an obtainable sixteen and one half inches from the butt, plus or minus a half inch, depending on the overall weight of the cue." Proper Cue Balance

This would match your favorite cue and mine.

Looking forward to the pictures.

 

[mdavis228]

If you ask a cue maker the balance point on a cue - he'll tell you what it is as a measurement from the butt end.
Hope that helps to clear that up for you.

 

[randyg]

Well randy diff cues have diff characteristics as to how they drive the CB......

a more forward balanced cue is going to be great with spin especially if I were to make myself a cue for shooting artistic shots like masse's I'd make the balance well forward than my normal which is from 18 to 18.5 from the butt end on a 58" cue, I'd make it at 19.5-20 probably.

If a player really only liked to hold the cue way up on the butt then I'd make the balance forward if they still wanted it to "feel" neutral........a more forward balanced cue can aid in helping a player to FINISH the stroke also as the balance is such that it has more predisposition to keep moving forward, I've seen and lightly studied this first hand with players and the cues I build.

I've taken beginers that had the typical problems with bunting and gave them the once over to no avail (you know how it goes no one practices) and then had them shoot with a much more forward balanced cue and it had a definite effect on the problem.

Just like one of the mother drills is only addressing the actual FINISH and that is its goal.........a more forward balanced cue IMOP would be a better training "aid" than a more rear balanced cue for a learning player.

but FACT is that that its pretty much just FEEL.......so there is NO REASON FOR YOU TO CARE lol or anyone else either.........as we both know that artistic stuff is off the radar and in normal play if we can run out with a cue that has a 18" balance then we could do it with one that had a 22" balance......

basically I agree with you rationale Randy but throw me a little insight on what you think on my thoughts and what I've noticed with small research (not claiming truth just a few stats an a hypothesis of mine that hasn't become theory just yet....)

hope your well,
Keebie

Thanks Keebie.

I'm just looking for opinions, keeping an open mind to the answers.

I'm not sure whether an front/back weighted cue will strike the cue ball different. I do know for sure that my "feel" likes a front weighted cue.
randyg

 

[poolhustler]

Balance Point in typically measured from the butt of the cue, not including the bumper if there is one.

That being said, 18" is the best BP for me.

Balance point is more critical for me than the overall weight of the cue.

Russ....

 

[Fatboy]

the balance point is somewhere in the middle of my cue.

 

[Maniac]

I don't know, and I don't care.

Maniac

 

[sfleinen]

Thanks Keebie.

I'm just looking for opinions, keeping an open mind to the answers.

I'm not sure whether an front/back weighted cue will strike the cue ball different. I do know for sure that my "feel" likes a front weighted cue.
randyg

Randy:

I tend to agree with you on the "whether there's a difference in how the cue strikes the ball" part. I don't think there is a difference. Case in point: while keebie makes the point how a forward-balanced cue "puts more spin on the ball," let's take a look at the best ball-spinners in the world: 3-cushion players. Everyone knows 3C players spin the p!ss out of the ball, yet their cues are REARWARD-BALANCED cues.

And, when we're talking masse cues as his point suggests, when you're jacking up the cue for a masse shot, the balance point of the cue has been effectively nullified. You no longer have "the weight of the cue" pushing down on your bridge hand, as a forward-balanced cue would be in a normal horizontal shot. Rather, the entire weight of the cue -- regardless whether the cue is forward-balanced or rearward-balanced -- is in your GRIP HAND when you're jacked-up for a masse shot. I don't think balance point matters at this stage; in fact, I personally think it's nullified. I'm sure everyone reading this has jacked-up with their playing cue (e.g. shooting over a ball); ever notice how, even if you grip the cue in the same grip area as when shooting normally/horizontally, that the cue's contact point on your bridge hand now feels "light as a feather"? Again, most of the weight of the cue is being supported by your grip hand when jacked-up; it's no longer evenly distributed between the grip hand and the bridge hand.

Again, it's just a personal preference, but I feel more "free" with a rearward-balanced cue. The cue feels like it can really "swing" -- like it were on roller skates -- rather than feel like I'm "pushing a heavy steel rod" weighted-down upon through my bridge hand. Others may not like this free-and-easy feeling, and instead *want* that feeling of weighted-down upon their bridge hand. Just personal preference.

-Sean

 

[Nick B]

All Greeks and adults measure from the butt. I would count as two votes.

Nick

 

[ceebee]

mine is right on the ding..

 

[greyghost]

Thanks Keebie.

I'm just looking for opinions, keeping an open mind to the answers.

I'm not sure whether an front/back weighted cue will strike the cue ball different. I do know for sure that my "feel" likes a front weighted cue.
randyg

Actually randy this brings up a good point that I didn't address enough......tho i stated that the more forward weight gives better results in things like those masse's..........I'm sure its NOT THE CUE that is doing more, its the diff in how the momentum effects the arm and finishing the stroke.

Its probably more along the lines of that because the momentum is geared more forward it just helps facilitate the hand and arm delivering and finishing in a much more controlled and optimally accelerated cue. Like as if you had some kind of hesitation to bunt it would help to "PULL" the stroke toward the finish.

But as for the cue being able to apply more english necessarily itself by design NO i don't think that. Just that it promotes a stronger finish giving the balls better action, helps to promote better delivery of the stroking arm.

Hope this makes sense.

-Grey Ghost-