Willie Mosconi Quiz on why he did this?

So you understand..........

Gerry said:
well Geno, I'll tell you how I aim, and it might make a little sense here.

I aim with the outside edges of the CB. To cut a ball to the left I aim at a segment of the OB with the left side of the CB....to find that segment I have to walk in from the right side for the sighting to work for me. Basically as I walk in my eye is telling me....too much, too little....ie: next segment, previous segment. Obviously the opposite is true for shots to the right.

if it matters...I am left handed, and left eye Dominant.

btw...for straight ins.....I aim center CB to where the OB touches the cloth ;)


G.
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hi there Jerry,

So you understand why Willie would say this. If the old boy knew more than this he certainly didn't write it down or teach it.

What you do helps you tremendously see the shots right. Most players would never even think of this. Very good. And many would say it doesn't make any difference. But if they could see what you are seeing they would totally agree.

Sometimes when i am trying to teach perfect Aim and i'm having a little trouble getting the player to get his eyes in the correct position I have them do this. That is why it really caught my eye when Dustin told me about Willie doing this.

And contrary to what some people think I don't teach this but use this as a tool to help them see some of the shots well.

Did you know that this method helps you correct your aim one way but makes no difference the other. but by doing it both ways to the right and the left it helps to take care of your problem way to cut the balls.

But this same technique can cause you some other problems unless you understand the whole banana.

Very good. If you would call me sometime I will share some knowledge with you and explain exactly what I'm talking about. It might even take you one step further with your aiming.

Good job. This is why Mosconi did this. But if he knew the whole secret he didn't share it with anyone or put it in a book.

He knew how to correct his aim but probably didn't know the whole reason why what he did helped his aim. Like I said, I will share this with you if you call 715-563-8712
 
when watching the clip.i did not see willie doing this walking from one side to the other to cut the ball left or right
or maybe i don't know what to look for
 
genomachino said:
hi there Jerry,

So you understand why Willie would say this. If the old boy knew more than this he certainly didn't write it down or teach it.

What you do helps you tremendously see the shots right. Most players would never even think of this. Very good. And many would say it doesn't make any difference. But if they could see what you are seeing they would totally agree.

Sometimes when i am trying to teach perfect Aim and i'm having a little trouble getting the player to get his eyes in the correct position I have them do this. That is why it really caught my eye when Dustin told me about Willie doing this.

And contrary to what some people think I don't teach this but use this as a tool to help them see some of the shots well.

Did you know that this method helps you correct your aim one way but makes no difference the other. but by doing it both ways to the right and the left it helps to take care of your problem way to cut the balls.

But this same technique can cause you some other problems unless you understand the whole banana.

Very good. If you would call me sometime I will share some knowledge with you and explain exactly what I'm talking about. It might even take you one step further with your aiming.

Good job. This is why Mosconi did this. But if he knew the whole secret he didn't share it with anyone or put it in a book.

He knew how to correct his aim but probably didn't know the whole reason why what he did helped his aim. Like I said, I will share this with you if you call 715-563-8712
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Boy, you hit the nail on the head there Geno!

About 2 years ago I hit a wall with my game. I broke things down and realized I had one big issue I was compensating for. As I said I am a lefty, left eye dominant, and my issue was I would over cut to the right, and undercut to the left 100% of the time......which I thought was good....1 problem.

So, for a while I just told myself to under cut or over cut to adjust, and my brain would re-wire......nope! the old noggin would not budge.

next I talked to Hal and he said to start aiming by sectioning the OB, and use the CB edges......ding ding ding.....we have a winner!

Now, after learning all this I figured out my eye sight or natural aiming was just not seeing it correctly. Now it is much better, but there are some shots, like down the rail which I need to use my old way...I think the rail and paralax vision has me screwed up?

anyway, thanks for the kind words, and I think I will call you later.......right after I get done building a few ball polishers! :)

good luck, Gerry
 
What's important to remember about reading is your subconscious mind will do all the work for you and re-reading the material helps to reinforce that information you have given it.
Also, what you read may not manifest itself immediately, but will almost certainly come about at a later time.
Well done, Geno. Good thread. :)

And know thee also brother, that yea though I play on the Valley tables of this earth, I shall not feel the pain of missed opportunity for I have readeth the material given unto me and have understoodeth. My butt and my shaft hast comforted me.

Please send your offerings of love (cash) to:
Steamer Cue Sports, Ltd. World Outreach Department
P.O. Box 69
Sarasota, FLA
 
If you can find Paul Baker from Des Moines, he advocates this technique.

In fact, I ruined my game for about 6 months following his advice.

He's into all kinds of weird (imho) ways of shooting a ball with a stick.

Jeff Livingston
 
deanoc said:
when watching the clip.i did not see willie doing this walking from one side to the other to cut the ball left or right
or maybe i don't know what to look for
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You are not mistaken. There were alot of shots where he would cut right and approach the the cue ball from the right.

So, it would appear that he didn't even follow his advice, if indeed he really did say this.

So, I'm getting the feeling that info was second hand info and not read directly by the poster or even the poster has the book even. I know all the names of my pool books.

But, it is easy to say someone, who is dead and can not dispute claims made, that they did this and that for this and that reason.

What really needs to be taken away from these product promoting threads as that the product promoted is really not needed. Why, because they all ended with the disclaimer of that you still have to put in the table time.

Which is exactly what Mosonis did.

In final note, I really have come to believe that most people problems shot making, running balls is more related to performance anixety, stagefright, if you will, than anything else.

FWIW
 
I kind of freaked Paul out a little.......

chefjeff said:
If you can find Paul Baker from Des Moines, he advocates this technique.

In fact, I ruined my game for about 6 months following his advice.

He's into all kinds of weird (imho) ways of shooting a ball with a stick.

Jeff Livingston
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Hi there Jeff,

About 3 years ago when I was in Des moines I talked to Paul. I showed him that he was left eye dominant and he almost couldn't believe it except how I showed him he could see it with his own eyes.

then i went one step further and I showed him which eye was doing what and he almost couldn't believe what he was seeing.

If you talk to Paul ask him about this. I'm sure he will give you the update on our meeting.

I respect paul alot. He's a legend in the pool world and a real nice guy. Years back when I was on the road we never played but Paul was also very cagy. this was back when Don mcCoy had the poolhall with the subs.

Those were the good old days.

Back then I was smart enough to stay away from Don McCoy. he was beating everyone back then .

If you talk to Bogey(Paul Baker) please share with us his side of the story.

Have a great day geno.....
 
Take it easy Lou.......

lfigueroa said:
So there is no reference and page number?

Lou Figueroa
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When he calls me I'll post it. I'm not going to hound the poor kid.

He didn't call me yet. I'll post it when he does.

Have a great day. Lesson at 3 and it's snowing a foot here. Only an inch so far but they say we're getting a foot.
 
He's talking and shooting..........

duckie said:
You are not mistaken. There were alot of shots where he would cut right and approach the the cue ball from the right.

So, it would appear that he didn't even follow his advice, if indeed he really did say this.

So, I'm getting the feeling that info was second hand info and not read directly by the poster or even the poster has the book even. I know all the names of my pool books.

But, it is easy to say someone, who is dead and can not dispute claims made, that they did this and that for this and that reason.

What really needs to be taken away from these product promoting threads as that the product promoted is really not needed. Why, because they all ended with the disclaimer of that you still have to put in the table time.

Which is exactly what Mosonis did.

In final note, I really have come to believe that most people problems shot making, running balls is more related to performance anixety, stagefright, if you will, than anything else.

FWIW
Click to expand...

I said in an earlier post that I wish we had a clip of him competing. When your teaching or trying to show certain things you don't neccesarily do everything you normally would do.

When I'm teaching I sometimes can't make a ball because I'm not focused on myself but on the player that I'm teaching. I'd like to see if I could notice this while he is competing.

As far as self promoting, I guess this is what I do is teach players how to am and I have had great success at it. I don't teach players to do this. I'm just having a little fun pointing out some of the things players do to try to overcome the optical illusions that we encounter trying to aim these little rounds balls with all these straight angles.

I do though use this to help some players that are having trouble seeing the shot correctly sometimes in my lesson.

The problem when you do this on all shots when you cut them to the right and to the left both ways you still have the problem of trying to keep the dominant eye in the dominant position. This is what I teach is a technique to keep the eye there. Not this side to side thing.

Coming into the shot from the side can cause you more trouble sometimes than help you.

I agree the best way to play your best is repetition. Play alot. But making sure you have the eyes in the correct position is very important because you need the most perfect image you can to the brain so your body can complete the task successfully. Now when you are practicing you are not only practicing your stroke and everything else you need to do but you are practicing getting the eyes in that best possible position on every shot all the time.

And there is only one small spot to see the shot the best all the time. Once you find this and know how to do it there is no dispute.

But for players that don't understand we can argue about my dad can beat up your dad forever and never know.

Seeing is believing.

Anyway, I've had alot of fun talking about this and getting feedback from everyone.

Have a great day geno............
 
genomachino said:
Hi there Jeff,

About 3 years ago when I was in Des moines I talked to Paul. I showed him that he was left eye dominant and he almost couldn't believe it except how I showed him he could see it with his own eyes.

then i went one step further and I showed him which eye was doing what and he almost couldn't believe what he was seeing.

If you talk to Paul ask him about this. I'm sure he will give you the update on our meeting.

I respect paul alot. He's a legend in the pool world and a real nice guy. Years back when I was on the road we never played but Paul was also very cagy. this was back when Don mcCoy had the poolhall with the subs.

Those were the good old days.

Back then I was smart enough to stay away from Don McCoy. he was beating everyone back then .

If you talk to Bogey(Paul Baker) please share with us his side of the story.

Have a great day geno.....
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Thanks for the nice reply, Geno.

Paul had me doing the dominant thingy, too, way back when. He's cagey alright....listening to him during a match is to lose. The last time I played him was during a small 8-ball tourney a couple of years ago at Smokey's...I had a pocket tied up with my ball (and was feeling good at my chances to win the game and thus match being on the hill) and he shot around it off the rail without even aiming, just bang! and in it went. I went home and mastered that shot myself and have used it numerous times during league. I had figured it was a low percentage shot but Paul showed me differently....oh, he won that game and then the match.

Paul is into the whole betting scene, etc. nice guy.

I played with Don on a team in '95, I think. We went to Vegas and had a great time. I see him around town every few months or so. His late wife, Gerri, was a good friend of mine and a great lady....and she ran the best bar and treated her pool teams like royalty. Things just weren't the same after she died. ...then the pool hall closed...then....:(

Now, I'm nostalgic....:cool:

Jeff Livingston
 
genomachino said:
When he calls me I'll post it. I'm not going to hound the poor kid.

He didn't call me yet. I'll post it when he does.

Have a great day. Lesson at 3 and it's snowing a foot here. Only an inch so far but they say we're getting a foot.
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OK, sure. But I'm starting to think that there is no reference and page number...

Lou Figueroa
 
lfigueroa said:
OK, sure. But I'm starting to think that there is no reference and page number...

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind there is a reference and page number.
Unfortunately, it can only be seen by properly viewing through your dominant eye.

For that - you will have to buy the CD.

Dale<who must be using his submissive eye>
 
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genomachino said:
Alot of players today can't even imagine how the pool world was when Willie was in his prime. ...

I'm sure it was just as bad if not worse back when Willie was up and coming. And I'm sure he went to these same rat holes that still kind of formed the image of pool today. ...

It's amazing that Willie and so many of the other great pool players from way back were such gentleman when I know first hand that it was almost like being in the trenches sometimes running around the country playing pool. ...

Anyway my hats off to Willie and all these other great pool players and how the survived these times and still kept their gentlemaness about them.

And Willie was one of the finest..........
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Geno -- Willie Mosconi was never a road playing hustler. His dad took him around to some pool halls in the Philadelphia area when he was a little kid to earn some money giving shows. And then Willie went to a bunch of small tournaments in the Philadelphia area by himself when he was an older teenager. He also played for money against hustlers who came through Philadelphia and thought they could easily whip the boyish-looking Willie. But Willie never hid his speed. He viewed hustlers as "a sleazy bunch of bastards."

When Willie went all over the country it was for big tournaments or on Brunswick-sponsored exhibition tours (starting with the Greenleaf tour in 1933 at age 20!).

So I don't think Willie really experienced much of the road-player rat-hole stuff you wrote about. However, because of the intensity fostered by his enormous competitiveness, some opponents didn't exactly view him as a great gentleman.

Source of my information: Willie's Game, An Autobiography, by Willie Mosconi and Stanley Cohen​
 
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Mosconi probably saw some of the worst then...........

AtLarge said:
Geno -- Willie Mosconi was never a road playing hustler. His dad took him around to some pool halls in the Philadelphia area when he was a little kid to earn some money giving shows. And then Willie went to a bunch of small tournaments in the Philadelphia area by himself when he was an older teenager. He also played for money against hustlers who came through Philadelphia and thought they could easily whip the boyish-looking Willie. But Willie never hid his speed. He viewed hustlers as "a sleazy bunch of bastards."

When Willie went all over the country it was for big tournaments or on Brunswick-sponsored exhibition tours (starting with the Greenleaf tour in 1933 at age 20!).

So I don't think Willie really experienced much of the road-player rat-hole stuff you wrote about. However, because of the intensity fostered by his enormous competitiveness, some opponents didn't exactly view him as a great gentleman.

Source of my information: Willie's Game, An Autobiography, by Willie Mosconi and Stanley Cohen​
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Hi there and thamks for the post,

I'm deffinitely going to buy those Mosconi books for myself.

I can see where he would think this of the road players that came through.

As I grew up in this pool world I started traveling when I was 18 with on my first road trip. I played good enough at this age without being anywhere that the player had to play awful good to beat me on the bar table. That's all I played at the time.

With my travels those first 6 months I had alot of dirty tricks pulled on me from getting stiffed to almost getting beat up, ( they didn't know I was in karate for 8 years)kind of funny, to all kind of scams to get my cash.

This was my conclusion of the situation.

These pool halls back then were real bad. Young guys would go hang out there around alot of bad people. Of course there was some real good people also but there were alot of creeps.

Now these young guys hanging around these creeps at a real impressionable age would kind of pick up all the creeps moves just to survive. Soon they become so much like these creeps mixing in the drugs and drinking and whatever else went along with it.

Soon this young player starts to play pretty good. There you go. Now you got a pool player that can play well that was brought up through the ranks of some of the most undesirable people you can find. Some of these people are their heros or best friends. these players had become like the people they were hanging around with since they were young.

Now you have a good pool player with some real bad habits and attitudes.

Now they go on the road and spread the good cheer to everyone , even Willie back then.

Even in the 80's it was real tough to go to a tournament and try to play. There were alot of nice players there but there were also alot of these little creeps running around not only sharking you at every turn they could but some of these guys could really play.

No wonder this pool world was so cut throat for so many years. You really didn't know who you could trust.

And it was no wonder when I would be on the road the people treated me kind of bad sometimes at first. They had already had their fill of road players. They had seen some of these great ambassadors of this game and had been scammed and cheated by many already.

And there were some really good people and players that traveled the country on the raod but the jerks were remembered the most.

The good news is today the game has transformed into a lot better place to be. The old toilets they called poolhalls years back have all disappeared. And again not all of them were toilets but there were alot of them.

99% of all the poolhalls I have traveled to over the last 2 years of teaching and playing are a real nice place to be. In fact most of them I would even take my kids now as they grew up.

Bottom line is. I can really see where Willie would get this attitude towards these guys that they called pool hustlers back then. Most of them knew all the tricks and used them all to survive on the road. It's the only way they knew to survive.

I hope this sheds a little light on why he might think this way about these ambassadors of the game that would stop to visit him traveling on the road.

I'll bet they all got a big surprise when they played Willie. I'm sure they really didn't think he could handle the pressure of the cash. But from the sounds of it he did just fine. Too much fire power.

Great post about an aspect of Willie most players would have never know.

Thanks geno.........
 
duckie said:
You are not mistaken. There were alot of shots where he would cut right and approach the the cue ball from the right.

So, it would appear that he didn't even follow his advice, if indeed he really did say this.

So, I'm getting the feeling that info was second hand info and not read directly by the poster or even the poster has the book even. I know all the names of my pool books.

But, it is easy to say someone, who is dead and can not dispute claims made, that they did this and that for this and that reason.

What really needs to be taken away from these product promoting threads as that the product promoted is really not needed. Why, because they all ended with the disclaimer of that you still have to put in the table time.

Which is exactly what Mosonis did.

In final note, I really have come to believe that most people problems shot making, running balls is more related to performance anixety, stagefright, if you will, than anything else.

FWIW
Click to expand...

but...but...how could you not have been completely mezzzmerized by the intriguing mystery of mosconi's approach? lol you mean you havent ordered the dvd yet ? rofl

I found these lying around if anyone wants to admire willie some more
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvdOk7TV0yo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbcukbfELFo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5aDtoMZ-bQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONiS0pRtfEk&feature=related
 
genomachino said:
I just recently discovered that in one of the great masters books that he talks about his aiming.

If he was cutting a ball to the right he would walk into it from the left.

If he was cutting the ball to the left he would walk into it from the right.

In fact sometimes this influenced which way he would walk around the table to shoot a shot.

There is a very distinct reason for this. I sure wish he was still around so I could talk to him. It would be pretty interesting. He knew and understood some things that many players never even thought about.

No wonder he played so well.

Does anyone know Why??????????
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This thinking is exactly what I've done for years, I call it left to right and right to left. I envision it as no different than the thinking I use when a ball is straight in.

My answer to your question is this;

I always try and approach every shot the same way, ''every time'' that's because the results from the shot will tell me the necessary adjustments I need to make, meaning I'll approach the shot a little more left or right to adjust to the conditions, whether they are internal or external issues. I learn a lot more from my misses than most other shots. In essence your always trying to get your pendulum swing balanced and natural to create a straight follow through. Your approach and my expression ''when your down your done'' exemplifies this principal, meaning your stance/body is now balanced properly.
 
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