Pool has a "FATAL FLAW"

[azbluemach1]

Good one. I don't want to go down this path BUT...alternate breaks only gurantees a player breaks, it does not guarantee that he gets to play. He only hopes to play.

This whole thread is non-sense imo. Alternating breaks clearly addresses your "Fatal Flaw", and you dismiss it out of hand.

Alternating breaks guarantees both players the same starting position. The player who can break and run or break and safe wins. In golf, both players are given a tee box from which to hit out of, and what they do with that opportunity is up to them.

Alternating breaks should be the standard in pro tournament pool imo. Gambling is completely different since you can adjust.

/thread

 

[Wags]

If you think it's so flawed, the answer is simple. Don't play. I on the other hand, love it because of it's "flaws" I love that you can close out a game or a match with out your opponent ever shooting.

I think that's a bit harsh. The OP is presenting an opinion of what he sees as a problem with the game in gaining acceptance and popularity. He is doing this because despite the flaws he is "hooked" just like you and me.

At the same time....I agree. Only one thing is better than seeing a player on the hill gaff a match winning shot and the opponent, down by 2 or 3 games, not let him get back to the table. The one thing better is if you are the one closing it out.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Alternating breaks clearly addresses your "Fatal Flaw", and you dismiss it out of hand.


/thread

It is not the fix. This thread is about the evolution of pool because of the "FATAL FLAW". Ten-Ball (with tiny pockets) does not lead us to the promised land. Everyone needs to ask themselves how we got here.

I am a room owner and frankly, I can't do anything with where pool is going (tight pockets, rotation games).

 

[supergreenman]

I think that's a bit harsh. The OP is presenting an opinion of what he sees as a problem with the game in gaining acceptance and popularity. He is doing this because despite the flaws he is "hooked" just like you and me.

At the same time....I agree. Only one thing is better than seeing a player on the hill gaff a match winning shot and the opponent, down by 2 or 3 games, not let him get back to the table. The one thing better is if you are the one closing it out.

Forgive me for sounding harsh.... I just feel that trying to find faults or complaining about "the state of pool" are self defeating.

Currently, more people play the game than in any time in history.

Yes pool halls are on the decline, it's hard to make the amount of space you need for a traditional hall pay for itself on table time alone these days, yet here are halls out there that are not only surviving, but thriving.

Yes there is a decline in professional pool in North America, this is not the case in asia.

Time to stop looking for faults and start looking for solutions or shut up.

This is of course just my opinion and opinions are a dime a dozen. Based on todays currancey rates that makes my opinion worth about 1/10th of a cent more than all you south of the border.

 

[nancewayne]

"Fatal Flaw" solution ?

The general population (that likes watching sports) wants action! The ahead, then behind, changes of the lead in NASCAR racing is an example (of course, many LIKE the wrecks that change the positions quickly).

The best pool game for frequent lead changes is 1-pocket. The players generally only shoot one or two shots until giving up the table to the opponent. THAT creates action AND drama! (it's a little like a chess match, except much faster).
I.M.O.

 

[cigardave]

My solution is... let's change the game to SHARKING ALLOWED.

Opponents can talk up a storm while their opponent shoots, thereby potentially affecting the outcome of the game. They would have to stay in their seat and be reasonably still, like today... but they could talk non-stop if they wanted to.

The skill of sharking would be explored and developed to its full extent... sharking would become an art form.

The best shooter combined with the one with highly developed sharking skills would emerge as the top pro in the world.

And guess what?... just maybe, the game could become VERY interesting to the general public that currently does not follow the game at all.

 

[SlickRick_PCS]

Forgive me for sounding harsh.... I just feel that trying to find faults or complaining about "the state of pool" are self defeating.

Currently, more people play the game than in any time in history.

Yes pool halls are on the decline, it's hard to make the amount of space you need for a traditional hall pay for itself on table time alone these days, yet here are halls out there that are not only surviving, but thriving.

Yes there is a decline in professional pool in North America, this is not the case in asia.

Time to stop looking for faults and start looking for solutions or shut up.

This is of course just my opinion and opinions are a dime a dozen. Based on todays currancey rates that makes my opinion worth about 1/10th of a cent more than all you south of the border.

You seem so big there, Green man; why don't you come up with something to make the US pool scene better? I like the way Paul is actually coming with his point of view. You seem to just take a huge dung on it. Propose your solution and I will have my respect for you. For now: I lost respect on you.

 

[slyfox]

"Fatal Flaw" to Fatal Flaw.....

Your ideas about no defensive interaction is not the issue I think you are trying to get at. In basketball, if someone straight up breaks your ankles and dunks in your face... you just got dominated. In golf, if a player goes off and shoots 59 4 days in a row.... you got dominated. No matter whether you can be defensive toward them or not.... you lost.

Sometimes you just have to face the fact that sometimes the opponent just plays insane. It's happened to me many times and I know it will again.

I enjoy pool as is. And I believe there are enough people who will always enjoy pool to keep it going.
If it changes, it changes... but I feel there is enough support to continue on.

Interesting insights.....

 

[youngstownkid]

It is not the fix. This thread is about the evolution of pool because of the "FATAL FLAW". Ten-Ball (with tiny pockets) does not lead us to the promised land. Everyone needs to ask themselves how we got here.

I am a room owner and frankly, I can't do anything with where pool is going.

Paul, are you saying your business is suffering, or are you just referring to how the professional pool scene is suffering?

 

[PUTT4DACA$$H]

Start with the kids

I understand your concept of the ff, although I don't neccessarily agree that its the cause for pool being in the dumps.

THE FUTURE OF POOL IS WITH THE KIDS AND YOUTH, AND UNTIL YOU CAN COME UP WITH A GAME THAT CAN COMPETE WITH PS3 AND ALL OF THE COMPUTER GENERATED GAMING THEY PLAY, POOL WILL ALWAYS SUFFER.

I think we need to start getting the kids involved more instead of trying to tweak the game from the top-down.

After school programs or a pool club at junior high schools, then they can start getting exposure to a pool table at an earlier age. Alot of people in America don't get any exposure to pool until after they turn 18 years old or even 21, way too late.

Maybe pool in the future you will wear somekind of "fighter pilot helmet" with 3d graphics on the visor display showing you possible shots and the path to the run-out!!!!

PS

In Amateur pool your opponent almost always gets a turn at the table. its only pool at its highest level thats not "equal-offense"

JMO
Gordon Graham
Las Vegas

 

[12squared]

A fix:

I believe I have read that Buddy Hall has suggested loser breaks as his preferred way to play 9-ball so let's start there. (if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected ).

Racking is always an issue so lets have them rack their own, but incorporate the rule Earl & Shane played to it: you have to make the 9/10-ball last. In other words, making the 9 on the break or because of a combination or luck, it gets respotted and the player continues shooting.

I do not like the call shot rules because they take away the 2 way shot and all the creativity that incorporates.

So here' my suggestion:

1) loser breaks
2) rack your own (still have to make a ball on the break to continue shooting)
3) have to make the money ball last to win, but you continue shooting
4) all other current rules apply (3 foul; pushout only after the break; etc.)

Outside of equal offense, this seems to be the fairest & should allow for both players to get to the table and allow for maximum creativity, what they do with their opportunities is up to them and the pool gods.

Dave

 

[Paul Schofield]

In basketball, if someone straight up breaks your ankles and dunks in your face... you just got dominated. In golf, if a player goes off and shoots 59 4 days in a row.... you got dominated. No matter whether you can be defensive toward them or not.... you lost.

Sometimes you just have to face the fact that sometimes the opponent just plays insane. It's happened to me many times and I know it will again.

The scenarios you describe above in basketball and golf are just fine. The opponents got to play the same amount and got crushed. That is OK. We have decided just the opposite. When pool players crush one another we go out and look to make the game harder by inventing a new game, making more difficult rules, tightening up pockets, adding another ball to a rotation game. I ask the question again. How did we get to Ten-Ball anyway?

Someone please name for me a succesfull sport that has seen the game used to represent their sport change over the years the way ours has.

 

[cigardave]

Someone please name for me a successful sport that has seen the game used to represent their sport change over the years the way ours has.

That would be professional football... the NFL.

They change the rules REGULARLY... like every year there's several changes made.

By comparison, the rules of pocket billiards are stable.

 

[Paul Schofield]

A fix:

I believe I have read that Buddy Hall has suggested loser breaks as his preferred way to play 9-ball so let's start there. (if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected ).

Racking is always an issue so lets have them rack their own, but incorporate the rule Earl & Shane played to it: you have to make the 9/10-ball last. In other words, making the 9 on the break or because of a combination or luck, it gets respotted and the player continues shooting.

I do not like the call shot rules because they take away the 2 way shot and all the creativity that incorporates.

So here' my suggestion:

1) loser breaks
2) rack your own (still have to make a ball on the break to continue shooting)
3) have to make the money ball last to win, but you continue shooting
4) all other current rules apply (3 foul; pushout only after the break; etc.)

Outside of equal offense, this seems to be the fairest & should allow for both players to get to the table and allow for maximum creativity, what they do with their opportunities is up to them and the pool gods.

Dave

This post is excellent. Here is the problem. A first timer golfer tees off, knocks the ball down the fairway, and putts the ball in the hole...just like a Pro would! A first time bowler plays the same game as a Pro as in all other successful sports. I can't introduce a player to pool through Nine-Ball. It is just too hard. Nine-Ball is too difficult for 95% of the players and almost an equal amount can never understand it. It should be our industries goal to have one representative game that has broad based appeal for everyone from novice to Pro. If this ever happens, we are on our way.

In order for this to ever happen, pool must come to terms with its "FATAL FLAW".

 

[supergreenman]

You seem so big there, Green man; why don't you come up with something to make the US pool scene better? I like the way Paul is actually coming with his point of view. You seem to just take a huge dung on it. Propose your solution and I will have my respect for you. For now: I lost respect on you.

Here's the thing. I'm not the one whining and crying about what's wrong with pool or what the fatal flaw of pool is. As such I don't believe it's up to me to find a solution to something I don't see as a problem.

I say things the way I see them, if that loses your respect, then so be it, I make no apologies.

I feel that if there's a market for professional pool someone will exploit it, if not then I guess it wasn't such a good idea. Will the loss of a professional tour hurt the game? NO!

Most people that play the game are barely aware of such a thing as a professional pool player. Ask a league player in your area to name five professional pool players that are currently active. Chances are they won't be able to name two.

Pool is just fine as a sport, people will continue to play it and have fun doing so.

If you want to make a living with pool, cheers and good on ya, but I suggest you don't do it by playing the game. There's only a small pot of money and already too many people in line to get thier piece.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

But the difference is that all players get their chance to shoot. I think that's the most important point Paul is trying to make.

Roger

Roger, I understand it but as I said before, with the exception of a straight pool bracket tournament (no round robin) at the expert level, how often does this really happen? The idea that in pool one player can win without the other ever getting a chance is theoretical, not how it happens practically. I've been to enough professional tournaments to know that in any match race to 7-9 or whatever, both players get their chances. One may control the match but it isn't because the other player never had chances; he just wasn't able to produce like is opponent. If you add alternate break to the format, then the point isn't even theoretical any more - both players get chances.

 

[strokerace]

the answer is what i thought of years ago..i saw the problem with benching a player..how do you make it a fairer game..it had to be a combanation of offense and defense..the solution..is as followed..
1)..get rid of all numbered balls..like English 8 ball..7 reds and yellows
2)..elimate the Break all together..just dont need luck involved..
3)..a game that will work on all size tables..
4)..a game with international appeal and acceptance
5)..a game for all skill levels..beggining to advanced
6)..a game that can be handicapped..for league play..
7)..a game that can be bet on..on several levels..
8)..a game that combines all form of offense and defense..every shot
9)..a game that is the most difficult in the world to run out on..even
seasonal professionals could rarely..if ever do it..
10)..played with 2 white cue balls..one red stripe and one yellow stripe..
and 1 black ball..making it easy to understand and very interesting
for the most layman spectator..and the balls are great for TV..

THIS GAME WILL REMOVE "THE FATAL FLAW" FOREVER..GUAREENTEED!!

 

[Paul Schofield]

The general population (that likes watching sports) wants action! The ahead, then behind, changes of the lead in NASCAR racing is an example (of course, many LIKE the wrecks that change the positions quickly).

The best pool game for frequent lead changes is 1-pocket. The players generally only shoot one or two shots until giving up the table to the opponent. THAT creates action AND drama! (it's a little like a chess match, except much faster).
I.M.O.

Good one. I agree. I started a thread on this topic last year.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=193774

But as usual, there is a problem. People want to shoot balls in the hole and they get to decide what they want to do. Not us.

 

[inside_english]

A player is guaranteed to play 18 holes and putt the ball 18 times into the hole. Golf is very good. Imagine if only one golfer was allowed to play hole after hole until he bogied and then and only then could his opponent play.

It is the preservation of the “FATAL FLAW” that is at the very root of all of pool’s troubles resulting in a seemingly endless evolution and parade of pool games. PROOF: The story of billiards path from straight rail all the way to three-cushion is really a story about the “FATAL FLAW”. It is a story about how a simple and beautiful game that everyone could understand and anyone could play evolved to a game that few can understand and even fewer can play. It is a story of how a game developed into a cult game and essentially became irrelevant in the main stream. Save the “FATAL FLAW”

This is also the story of pocket pool games. The “FATAL FLAW” is preserved while pool makes these giant leaps into new territories. Each and every step, the game becomes more and more difficult, alienating more and more potential players and confused spectators. In an effort to minimize the “FATAL FLAW”, the tiny pocket has emerged. This could very well be the death throes for pocket games. The leap to Ten-Ball parallels Billiards trek to its final resting place (Three Cushion Billiards).

Could you stop typing "fatal flaw" in uppercase? It seems like you're trying to promote a t-shirt or bumper sticker or something.

 

[12squared]

This post is excellent. Here is the problem. A first timer golfer tees off, knocks the ball down the fairway, and putts the ball in the hole...just like a Pro would! A first time bowler plays the same game as a Pro as in all other successful sports. I can't introduce a player to pool through Nine-Ball. It is just too hard. Nine-Ball is too difficult for 95% of the players and almost an equal amount can never understand it. It should be our industries goal to have one representative game that has broad based appeal for everyone from novice to Pro. If this ever happens, we are on our way.

In order for this to ever happen, pool must come to terms with its "FATAL FLAW".

Paul,

First, to answer your question about how we got to 10-ball anyway, I think it was to take the break out of the game as much as possible. 9-ball became all about the break and people were whining.

I disagree a little w/your premise about people not relating to pool or rotation games because they can't do it early like in golf or bowling. People can pocket balls and enjoy themselves playing pool as seen by the fact that there are how many home tables, bars & rooms that make a living off of pool as recreation? For the majority of my playing cue sports for the 1st 10 years, I played 3-cushion. You think ‘pool’ has a problem getting the average person interested that could relate to playing like golf or bowling? .

I used to say the same things you are saying as the difference between pool & 3-cushion: the average person could make a ball playing pool and get immediate satisfaction by at least seeing balls go into the holes...good luck w/3-cushion :sorry:. Both games take equal expertise to master but it was easier for the average joe/joess to enjoy pool. In fact pool maybe more difficult to master because if you don't pocket a ball you do not shoot again. People can relate to pool & rotation games, plus those games eliminate the endless moments just staring at the balls before deciding what to shoot like in 8-ball. I think that's why 9-ball took off as it did.

My view is that pool is a tough spectator sport, unless you are a player interested in the subtleties in the game, and may never be mainstream. It is best viewed in its entirety, not the way it is chopped up on TV broadcasts (thank you TAR and all the other streamers :thumbup. It may never have a lot of money in it unless someone or some company with lots of money wants to promote it...but at what gain to them? Pool is a passion and will probably remain so. The best thing we can do is support those that are supporting the game we love. I like that people like you are trying to come up with a better way to get the masses involved, but I don't hear any suggestions from you, only why this and that would not work.

I would hope your posts in the future begin with what you believe to be a solution and let people add to that, to help maybe come up with a solution, instead of leading w/the negative and only finding fault in the posts that are trying to help. I'm just getting tired of reading mostly negative posts about pool's future instead of more positive ways to help.

“Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people”
Dave