Pool has a "FATAL FLAW"

justnum said:
Another fatal flaw are the cold callers or the spammers, who keep trying to sell the same old snake oil for a quick rally and something to cheer about.

The only tradition pool has kept alive is that people are interested in playing it, all the other business traditions have popped and bubbled too fast to make a lasting impact on the community.

In short the fatal flaw is that people trust what business people say.[/QUOTE]

The individuals the "pool world" has trusted that have ended up damaging the sport or scamming everyone aren't business people. They're con men, or in the current venacular, fools and trolls.:D It's generally not a problem trusting real business people. We just rarely see them in the pool world. Again, you can't attract real business people to pool because of the lack of real money in the sport. No legitimate businessman enters ventures that are unlikely to produce significant revenue.
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Zbotiman said:
....You might enjoy reading the book "Golf's Golden Grind," it is the story of these types of topics, in the construction of the PGA Tour, and how they managed to emerge from the late 20's to the time of Palmer's Open win in 1960, at Cherry Hills and as everyone knows, that's the birth of televised Golf.

The people who brought those things to pass in Golfdom, "KNEW," exactly what they were trying to do and had the economic pull and influence to make "their will come to pass." Pool is not so lucky, great game, no BIG MONEY upper class PATRONAGE!
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Sadly, POOL was the popular sport in the 20's rather than golf! Greenleaf was a regular in the newspaper headlines and had endorsement deals (a cigarette company being one of them). He was pulling in some seriuos coin for the times, and was every bit as popular as the athletes of today.
 
Paul Schofield said:
Thank you for your comments.

Boy, did you nail it. At the same time, I beg to differ with the "bottom up" approach won't work. That is how it does work. If the structure of the game is right, everything builds on that: viable and respected venues emerge along with a desirable demographic. Then and only then can pool's full potential be realized.

Which came first: a good solid sport or the deep pocketed sponsor?

I am with you. Pool is nowhere and it is not going anywhere in its current state. I say the demographic is bad because the venues are bad. The venues are bad because the game is bad. Fix the game.

I believe that it is the structure of the game that is the root of all of pool's troubles.

I would also like to further validate your remarks. When I open the Billiards Digest, I see no adds for automobiles, computors, phones, hygene products, or anything other than pool gadgets. This tells us what the corporate world thinks of our world.
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While I disagree that the games played in pool contain the flaws responsible for our lack of notariety, you make some very good points, particularly regarding the venues. Granted, most of the people I've played with over the years were not only fairly strong players, but were more than a bit misplaced in the venues we were forced to frequent in order to play. My crew included a golf pro, the owner of a medical equipment company, a civil servant, and others of the same ilk. Certainly not bashing those from more blue collar backgrounds, but just reinforcing your point about the venue itself rather than the patronage contributing to the problems. I may be a banker now, but I'm really just a redneck from southeast Oklahoma with a college education......

I love the games largely the way they are, in particular the rotation games. None of the games can be any worse to watch than golf, and that sport is doing ridiculously well. The general public can get some appreciation of the sport and the players from watching, but it'll always require someone with real pool knowledge to fully appreciate what's happening on the table.
 
The Fatal Flaw is Kevin Trudeau isn't promoting pool.

When he was there wasn't any pro player who didn't know who he was.

That type of professional level talent is what pool is missing.
 
Maniac said:
IMO there's nothing wrong with the GAME
Maniac
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How right you are. For all the people that play the game, there IS NOTHING wrong with it. I differ in that I view the game through the eyes of all the people that will have nothing to do with it.

Here is the problem: Your group is shrinking and my group is growing. This does not bode well for pocket billiards.

Even with its current state, I am very optimistic.
 
Paul Schofield said:
I don't think you understand. The I will use an analogy: Imagine a thriving dirty greasy spoon restaurant located in downtown America. Drunks eat at the place at 3 in the morning. Bums come in to get warm. The place is a cheap fix to kill the pain. A lot of coffee is sold. You know the place. There are tens of thousands of places like this across the country. In no way are these places representative of the entire restaurant industry. There are restaurants that design their interiors and menus to cater to a much more desirable demographic. These restaurants have little interest in competing or converting the clientele or management of a greasy spoon to something better.
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Good point; but usually the food, and the atmosphere, is better a a dive, than a trendy restaurant. Haven't you seen "Diners, drive-ins, and Dives"?
Bill
 
I find these kinds of conversations fascinating. I get to go back to my billiard room, contemplate and experiment with many different ideas. I try everything. I do stuff. 99% of it fails, but that's OK. Many people get emotional, angry, aggravated, or upset over opinions that differ from theirs. Don’t. This is only a forum and not much said here affects anything. If this thread bothers you, don’t read any more because it is about to get more controversial.

Now I have read your descriptions of 1) our promoters described as con-men, fools and trolls, 2) our venues as bars and old, worn-out pool halls, 3) our clientele as excessive drinkers, gambling addicted hustlers, druggies, and fighters. I CAN CLEARLY SEE a connection between the unscrupulous promoters, publicly distained venues, anti-social clientele, and last of all and most importantly and significantly: THE GAME. These three games of ours (8,9,10 ball) are not respected games of sport. They are pirate and shyster games. They promote sandbagging, cheating, and all kinds of chicanery. The last time we had a game that was respectable was when Straight-Pool was the championship game (Greenleaf’s game). Scroll through the threads and there are scads of sandbagging and cheating topics discussed. On the other hand, Straight-Pool is pretty honorable and staight forward. Unfortunately, the fatal flaw sunk Straight-Pool (and it ain’t comin’ back). Well the fatal flaw also infects 8, 9, and 10 ball in more ways than one.

The absolute best game we have right now is One-Pocket. It is so simple and perfect that the rules go untouched, year after year. Don’t call anything and get 8 in your hole. It is unfortunate that the game has so little appeal. People want to shoot at pockets.

I look at everyone who plays pool right now. I have no desire to change the way they play. I want more people to play and to expand into an additional demographic. I think this happens by altering the structure of the game, not by getting out and promoting what we have. I can take a lesson from our game's failures. I am going to do something different.

My apologies if I have offended anyone here.
 
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Flaws...

Ok, someone has to say it... properly.
Pool is not flawed; pool is perfect, people are flawed. If people were brave, competitive, fierce and honest we might catch a glimpse of the order from chaos that is pool.

I'll play Devil's advocate... a little.

Pool mimicks life in many ways. Much like life, we don't have control over what we get, just control over what we do with what we get... how we play our cards, so to speak (not intentionally drawing allusion to poker, but maybe we can try to look at a part of pool that similarly makes poker likable en masse later).

Do any of you remember playing 8-ball wherein the rules required you to play the suit that you made on the break?
If so, here's a flawed little idea to attract us to a small but maybe likeable change in tournament play. Allow me to suggest 9-ball for the example stipulation:

Before the opening break, players flip or lag for "even or odd" (1,3,5,7 are odd - nine is not counted as it's a winner); whatever suit you 'won' you retain the entire set. IF you make a ball on the break that matches your 'suit', you continue shooting, run out the set ... whatever.
However, if you fail to pocket any ball or pocket only ones from your opponent's suit, your turn ends without foul and the incoming player has possibly an opportunity he might not have normally had.

Keep in mind that pattern racking and racking knowledge can play a role (or a roll!), so it should be a requirement for an 'even' and an 'odd' to be at alternate 'wings' and should be considered a foul for a player to break from the same 'side' as his suit (assisting his suit selection).
I can't think of a reason why the trailing player couldn't be allowed a 'tying' inning other than time restrictions.
Otherwise same rules, ball in hand is not an enemy since it speeds things up for our "instant gratification" driven society.

I like the idea of equal opportunity, but life doesn't really offer that, and since someone has to go first, neither does pool. Alternate the break played perfectly by both sides means the winner is decided on a lag or coin toss.

BTW, I think pool300 is nice for league play, but seems a little toothless for match play.

If we want pool to grow, kids have to play it. When I was a kid there were arcades, bowling alleys, and just a few other places that I could play at (Skate-City !). Is pool accessible to kids? Maybe. Do parents even let their kids roam around with all the weirdos in this world on the loose? Probably not, America.

I think that very few good parents would take their young ones on a pool outing to the places I play at; the ones that do seem to have the most ill-manered kids and have a strong sense of entitlement (the little apples fall close to the trees, too).
Honestly, I'd love to see a place that could be truly family friendly; I don't see why pool can't be marketed as a much better and more rewarding way to spend a few hours than a movie ... I know it's hard to compete with a family of four watching a Redbox rental for .25 USD each, but it's a much better option than 6.75 a ticket and 20.00 for drinks and Lord knows how much for snacks.
So, to you room owners out there; since smoking is all but gone in the USA, focus on a great kitchen, a good bar (even a soda bar!) and multiple streams of revenue... consider sponsoring your top player to a pro event; it's an investment in a (pipe)dream for your young players. They will drag their friends in to the room who don't want to be there ... work hard at giving THEM (the friends, dummy!) a reason to spend their money. Find a local Pro who will show up to give (at least) an inexpensive 1st lesson (clean-shaven and in a clean change of clothes) to your clientelle.
Pool is hard to learn properly from the get-go, the players who'd benefit most from structured learning are least likely to accept that structure.

Like I said, pool is perfect, people are flawed.
 
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DogLoop said:
.Pool mimicks life in many ways. Much like life, we don't have control over what we get, just control over what we do with what we get.
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I enjoyed reading this post so much that I read it a few times. I particulary liked the above quote.

I hope you will take the time (hours) and play the game you described. Please come back here and tell us your experience.

It is my belief that the most crucial component of any sport/game is is not that it be challenging, skillful, competitive, or fair. It must first and foremost be FUN. FUN is abstract and cannot be calculated or produced with any equation. We humans can be unexplainable. The only way to really know is to play.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.
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Correct, but the other thing he is pointing out is that you can lose in pool without even had the chance to play at all. In golf every player got to play.

Just imagine a fishing sport where you have to stand on the side every time someone catches a fish and continue to stand there as long as the other player keep hooking fish, let say, every 5 min.
 
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this is true imo, every other sport has both players gets the same opportunity to try and win, same exact opportunity, except for pool & snooker where a player can really be playing very very well, yet loses to another player who also plays well but also gets some great rolls, a game in the U.S. Open between Mika vs Klatt comes to mind, both hasn't missed anything, except Klatt was sitting in his chair, and Mika was getting good after breaking the balls (which we all know is just a chance, yes good break, but its just a chance of getting something after hitting them hard)

how to fix it? Lets think ;)
 
crosseyedjoe said:
Correct, but the other thing he is pointing out is that you can lose in pool without even had the chance to play at all. In golf every player got to play.

Just imagine a fishing sport where you have to stand on the side every time someone catches a fish and continue to stand there as long as the other player keep hooking fish, let say, every 5 min.
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That's true in theory, but how often does that come even semi-close to happening in reality? Maybe the 150 and out in 14.1 and that doesn't happen that often. And that is taken care of with the round robin format that is used often in straight pool tournaments. It is far more the norm in a 9 or 10 Ball race for both players to have sufficient chances to seize command.

And yes, two players can both play very well and one good or bad roll can decide the outcome. That's how most sporting events are decided when two players play equally well, it comes down to one or two little things, like sinking the 60 foot putt or holing out from the fairway, or the stroke in tennis that hits the net and leaks over, or the grounder right at the third baseman that hits the bag and scoots to the corner for a base clearing double instead of a double play, or the pass that's tipped at the line of scrimmage yet makes it to a different receiver for a touchdown. Very often in any sport where both sides play equal it will come down to something little or lucky. These things happen in all sports it's just that usually one side plays better than the other so the outcome is not affected, and this is true in pool too.
 
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I am going to come at this from a number of different angles to try to make my point.

This is all about engaging players and keeping them coming back. We are losing too many people and it need not be.

Imagine a game of bowling. Imagine if they had the same structure that we have. If every time a player made a strike, he was entitled to roll again, denying his opponent an opportunity to roll the ball. Imagine if a player rolled 12 strikes in a row. He would win 300 to 0. This is what we do.

Now imagine that at the same time a bowler rolls a 300 game but his opponent also is guaranteed a regular and predictable opportunity to participate and score. Lets say he rolls a 299 game during the 300 game. This sounds like a winner for the sport to me. The guy who rolled the 299 game is coming back. They may lose this guy if he rolled 0.

You may say "This is unusual and very few players play this well and I am citing extreme examples. Most of the time, in pool, everyone gets plenty of chances". I strongly disagree. I think that the structure of our game aggravates people to quit. A sense of viable and fair competition does not exist in our game.
 
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Paul Schofield said:
It’s not rocket science. All one has to do is pick out the common components of all successful sports and then identify what is missing in pool. Pool has a “FATAL FLAW”. Pool has its own glass ceiling.

Here is the “FATAL FLAW”: A player is entitled to play on offence and score without limit while an opponent sits idly without influence. The combination of these three together is a recipe for absolute failure. All sports know that this is unacceptable. No successful legitimate sport has this structure. This current structure of pool mirrors a video game, not a sport. Play Pac Man and make your opponent sit and watch you clear screens. Play pool and make your opponent sit and watch you run balls/racks.

Take note of the following: a 240,000 straight rail billiard run, a run of 622 balkline billiards, a run of 31 three cushion billiards, a run of 4137 points in English Billiards, a 526 ball run in straight pool, an 18 pack in bar-box nine-ball, an 11 pack in nine-ball on a big-table. Where are these games now? Are these examples of successful games with viable futures? All these games are evidence of failed attempts to come to terms with the “FATAL FLAW”. Players get good so let’s make the game harder. Is Ten Ball with tiny pockets the answer to improving interest in the game? I don’t think so.

Baseball, football, basketball, golf, bowling, and other successful sports have written into their rules, regular and predictable opportunities for players/teams to participate. This makes for viable competition and result in popular successful sports. Pool needs to look inward at its structure and look for ways to do the same. The fix would send pool’s evolution in an entirely different direction. Evolution takes a long time and pool is light years away from being ready for prime time. If the “FATAL FLAW” was fixed, I think it is very possible that over time, one new game would emerge that would have the broad based appeal needed so that pool could join all the other successful sports.
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Paul,
Great post brother, rep to you by the way. I will now go back and read the other posts. Great solutions are borne out of great ideas.

How about Bank, Shoot, Bank? That would sure change some things!

336Robin :thumbup:
http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
 
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336Robin said:
Paul,
Great post brother, rep to you by the way. I will now go back and read the other posts. Great solutions are borne out of great ideas.

How about Bank, Shoot, Bank? That would sure change some things!

336Robin :thumbup:
http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
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As has been previously mentioned, One Pocket and games with alternating breaks would change some things too!!! These ideas and thoughts are nothing NEW. It's just that PEOPLE are too stubborn or set in their ways to change. Right now, 10-ball is all the rage, and in a democracy, the majority get what they want.

Maniac
 
Paul Schofield said:
I find these kinds of conversations fascinating. I get to go back to my billiard room, contemplate and experiment with many different ideas. I try everything. I do stuff. 99% of it fails, but that's OK. Many people get emotional, angry, aggravated, or upset over opinions that differ from theirs. Don’t. This is only a forum and not much said here affects anything. If this thread bothers you, don’t read any more because it is about to get more controversial.

Now I have read your descriptions of 1) our promoters described as con-men, fools and trolls, 2) our venues as bars and old, worn-out pool halls, 3) our clientele as excessive drinkers, gambling addicted hustlers, druggies, and fighters. I CAN CLEARLY SEE a connection between the unscrupulous promoters, publicly distained venues, anti-social clientele, and last of all and most importantly and significantly: THE GAME. These three games of ours (8,9,10 ball) are not respected games of sport. They are pirate and shyster games. They promote sandbagging, cheating, and all kinds of chicanery. The last time we had a game that was respectable was when Straight-Pool was the championship game (Greenleaf’s game). Scroll through the threads and there are scads of sandbagging and cheating topics discussed. On the other hand, Straight-Pool is pretty honorable and staight forward. Unfortunately, the fatal flaw sunk Straight-Pool (and it ain’t comin’ back). Well the fatal flaw also infects 8, 9, and 10 ball in more ways than one.

The absolute best game we have right now is One-Pocket. It is so simple and perfect that the rules go untouched, year after year. Don’t call anything and get 8 in your hole. It is unfortunate that the game has so little appeal. People want to shoot at pockets.

I look at everyone who plays pool right now. I have no desire to change the way they play. I want more people to play and to expand into an additional demographic. I think this happens by altering the structure of the game, not by getting out and promoting what we have. I can take a lesson from our game's failures. I am going to do something different.

My apologies if I have offended anyone here.
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One pocket is just the essence of boring when it comes to watching it though. Although i'm sure there are people out there that play it that will enjoy a good match.

The fact is that the majority of the game from what i've seen is spent moving balls around as in an endless loop. So very little action which is why I don't play/watch/gamble in it. I'm sure if you had your own pool table that you can get into a very deep train of thought playing it. But when it comes to going out to a bar and playing it. That's just not going to happen and if you want to appeal to masses, that's going to be something that has to be considered.

I've been asked multiple times to play it at the pool hall and decline immediately everytime.

In reality, I think that 10 ball has finally got it down. The rules are excellent. You have a push out ( and damnit APA would you just put that one rule in there for crying out loud ), you have call shot, and you have the ability to pass the shot back to the opponent if they don't call safe and miss but get lucky leaving you snookered. It simply takes all the luck out and makes the game as much about skill as it can be.

9-ball could really use that rule and I don't know why it's not implemented really.
 
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DogsPlayingPool said:
Uh, golf has pretty broad based appeal, has major sponsorship, hugely successful tours, network TV plus it's own dedicated cable channel, and even the second tier & journeyman pros are millionaires.

In golf your competitor also doesn't play defense against you.

With all due respect, I don't think that's it.
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True, no defense in golf. But no matter how many birdies and eagles you make or how many shots in a row you hit pure, your opponent is playing as well. He doesnt sit until you hit one in the bunker on the 18th hole. There is only one similarity between pool and golf. It is all about controling a little white ball. That is all.
 
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