water born finish

whammo57

whammo57

Kim Walker
Silver Member
Just to share some info ....

My procedure goes like this.... finish cut at joint is 840. Put on 3 coats of G5 and sand the next day with 220. Put on 5 coats of clear water born finish and sand the next day with 220. Put on 5 coats of water born finish and in 1 week, sand/wet sand/buff/polish.

I have read on the forum about General finishes and Target finishes so I tried them both.

General finish Clear Poly is a professional finish and is only available in gallons but with the proper amount of whining, they sent me a qt sample. The other finish is Target 9000 clear and is available in qts. Neither are exceptionally expensive.

The target finish is self crosslinking but I didn't perceive any great hardness. I tried the General finish with and without the crosslinker and didn't see much difference. Maybe it is just me or my methods. I am not saying that there is not a difference only that I didn't see it.

I use a 2 inch foam brush with the cue spinning slowly. I use a good foam brush with very fine foam. Put the finish on fast and as thick as you can. Spiral down the cue and then go back and touch the tip of the brush every 2 in to smooth the spirals. Do this only once and don't keep playing with it. Both finishes flowed out well.

The general finish builds much faster and dries quicker. 5 coats will build .010 easily and each coat dries in 10 to 15 min. The target won't build .010 in 5 coats and takes at least 30 minutes to dry between coats.

The general finish sands into fine dust. It does clog the paper more after 24 hours than after a week. The target finish always sands into little rolls or pills no matter how long you wait for it to harden and does not dust the same as general clear poly.

Both finishes polish out good and result in a water clear finish. The general finish clear poly does give a blue haze over dark wood like purple heart but I found that it dissipates after about a month. The target finish always is crystal clear.

I am going to stick with the General finish clear poly.

Kim

JUST A NOTE......... I NO LONGER USE THIS FINISH OR THIS PROCEDURE....... IT TAKES TOO LONG TO DRY AND IT TURNS YELLOW WITH TIME.............. I SEAL COAT WITH MAX 1618 EPOXY AND FINISH WITH SOLAREZ UV FINISH
 
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Enduro Clear Poly

When you refer to the General Finishes Clear Poly, I assume you're referring to the Enduro Clear Poly. It's my favorite of all the water based clear coats I've tried. I started buying it from the guy out in California (Compliant Spray Systems) who originally developed it. He sold out to General Finishes some years ago.

I've agree with you about the Crosslinker. I, too, have never really been able to tell the difference with or without it. Glad to hear someone else feels the same way.

I also agree with you about sanding. They say you can sand it in 30 minutes, but, IMHO, only if you want to go through a butt load of sandpaper. I wait at least a week before sanding for additional coats and/or wet sanding, buffing and polishing.

Regarding the bluish tint, I think that it may be the depth (.010) you are applying all at once. They specifically state in the application instructions to "apply the material without flooding (2-3 mils)" and "no more than three coats per day". With the amount you are applying in one session, I think it's just taking a loooooong time to fully cure.

Just my $.02 worth.
 
Bill the Cat said:
When you refer to the General Finishes Clear Poly, I assume you're referring to the Enduro Clear Poly. It's my favorite of all the water based clear coats I've tried. I started buying it from the guy out in California (Compliant Spray Systems) who originally developed it. He sold out to General Finishes some years ago.

I've agree with you about the Crosslinker. I, too, have never really been able to tell the difference with or without it. Glad to hear someone else feels the same way.

I also agree with you about sanding. They say you can sand it in 30 minutes, but, IMHO, only if you want to go through a butt load of sandpaper. I wait at least a week before sanding for additional coats and/or wet sanding, buffing and polishing.

Regarding the bluish tint, I think that it may be the depth (.010) you are applying all at once. They specifically state in the application instructions to "apply the material without flooding (2-3 mils)" and "no more than three coats per day". With the amount you are applying in one session, I think it's just taking a loooooong time to fully cure.

Just my $.02 worth.
Click to expand...

Yes it is the Enduro Clear Poly.
Yes.. I believe I get the bluish tint because of the depth. Maybe I should string out the finish over 2 or 3 weeks and give it more time to cure while it's thinner.

All in all, it's great stuff.

Kim
 
Bill the Cat said:
When you refer to the General Finishes Clear Poly, I assume you're referring to the Enduro Clear Poly. It's my favorite of all the water based clear coats I've tried. I started buying it from the guy out in California (Compliant Spray Systems) who originally developed it. He sold out to General Finishes some years ago.

I've agree with you about the Crosslinker. I, too, have never really been able to tell the difference with or without it. Glad to hear someone else feels the same way.

I also agree with you about sanding. They say you can sand it in 30 minutes, but, IMHO, only if you want to go through a butt load of sandpaper. I wait at least a week before sanding for additional coats and/or wet sanding, buffing and polishing.

Regarding the bluish tint, I think that it may be the depth (.010) you are applying all at once. They specifically state in the application instructions to "apply the material without flooding (2-3 mils)" and "no more than three coats per day". With the amount you are applying in one session, I think it's just taking a loooooong time to fully cure.

Just my $.02 worth.
Click to expand...

Bill,

Try this silicon carbide "no load" paper in 220 and 320. It is great and will save you a lot of money. Just blow it with air or vacuum it to clean in seconds.

http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/abrasive-sheets.html

Rick G
 
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If you call the people at General and ask the right questions they will tell you that it takes about 4 days for each coat to cure. Therein lies your sanding and hazing problems.

Bob Danielson
www.bdcuesandcomix.com
 
Sand when your fingernail no longer dents it.;)
Then re-spray.
2-3 mils will be hard if you brush.
Get a small detail gun with 1.0MM tip.
 
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scdiveteam said:
Bill,

Try this silicon carbide "no load" paper in 220 and 320. It is great and will save you a lot of money. Just blow it with air or vacuum it to clean in seconds.

http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/abrasive-sheets.html

Rick G
Click to expand...

Rick,

The no load paper works great but all I read says don't use it on water borne finish because the paper uses stearates to make it no load.

Stearates are a waxy substance used for mold release and lubrication. Water born finishes might have a problem with not sticking if you use it.

Kim
 
Thanks Rick!

scdiveteam said:
Bill,

Try this silicon carbide "no load" paper in 220 and 320. It is great and will save you a lot of money. Just blow it with air or vacuum it to clean in seconds.

http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/abrasive-sheets.html

Rick G
Click to expand...

I've actually bought from them before, but I prefer the 3M Sandblaster paper. Regardless, it's not the sandpaper that's the problem. If you try to sand the Enduro before it cures properly, it's like smearing glue into the grit. It will load up anything:(
 
JoeyInCali said:
Sand when your fingernail no longer dents it.;)
Then re-spray.
2-3 mils will be hard if you brush.
Get a small detail gun with 1.0MM tip.
Click to expand...

I think you told me before to "slow the fucc down"..... I will rethink my schedule of finish coats and see if I can eliminate the blue blushing.

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
Just to share some info ....

My procedure goes like this.... finish cut at joint is 840. Put on 3 coats of G5 and sand the next day with 220. Put on 5 coats of clear water born finish and sand the next day with 220. Put on 5 coats of water born finish and in 1 week, sand/wet sand/buff/polish.

I have read on the forum about General finishes and Target finishes so I tried them both.

General finish Clear Poly is a professional finish and is only available in gallons but with the proper amount of whining, they sent me a qt sample. The other finish is Target 9000 clear and is available in qts. Neither are exceptionally expensive.

The target finish is self crosslinking but I didn't perceive any great hardness. I tried the General finish with and without the crosslinker and didn't see much difference. Maybe it is just me or my methods. I am not saying that there is not a difference only that I didn't see it.

I use a 2 inch foam brush with the cue spinning slowly. I use a good foam brush with very fine foam. Put the finish on fast and as thick as you can. Spiral down the cue and then go back and touch the tip of the brush every 2 in to smooth the spirals. Do this only once and don't keep playing with it. Both finishes flowed out well.

The general finish builds much faster and dries quicker. 5 coats will build .010 easily and each coat dries in 10 to 15 min. The target won't build .010 in 5 coats and takes at least 30 minutes to dry between coats.

The general finish sands into fine dust. It does clog the paper more after 24 hours than after a week. The target finish always sands into little rolls or pills no matter how long you wait for it to harden and does not dust the same as general clear poly.

Both finishes polish out good and result in a water clear finish. The general finish clear poly does give a blue haze over dark wood like purple heart but I found that it dissipates after about a month. The target finish always is crystal clear.

I am going to stick with the General finish clear poly.

Kim
Click to expand...

You missing out on the 9300. I am trying it out and so far I love it. Hard as nails. The 9000 just sucks...

43b519f6-1590-71ac.jpg
 
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Thanks for the info.
I have been having a problem with finishes.
I see that Lee Valley carries general but doesn't show that they stock the
clear.

Target has a distributor 150 miles away from me so I will try the 9300.

For me, I think its a cross between my technique and the product that I have been using. I did a few good ones that I thought were decent for a beginner and went down hill after that. I have been working on a Schon that I would like to sell and there is no way
I can or would sell it as it stands right now.
 
Why would you seal your cue with an epoxy that doesn't get hard or that will eventually turn yellow?

I have said it many times. Five minute epoxy has no business anywhere in a cue, except possibly a ferrule and I wouldn't use it for that either.
 
Tony Zinzola said:
Why would you seal your cue with an epoxy that doesn't get hard or that will eventually turn yellow?

I have said it many times. Five minute epoxy has no business anywhere in a cue, except possibly a ferrule and I wouldn't use it for that either.
Click to expand...

Tony,

5 minute epoxy is a glue with great adhesion properties and makes an excellent substrate for flat sanding before clear.

If you use a high solids clear poly with UV Inhibitor properties within the chemistry, then I am sure you won't get yellowing like the old Meuccis for example.

I saw that test that Joe Barringer did with the UV Light and epoxies. It was skewed because of the high intensity UV light exposure directly to the epoxy without UV protection. All it proved was that direct high levels of UV with discolor the product. Many things organic or inorganic will change when exposed to high UV Radiation.

I drink Arnold Palmer Ice tea with the diet sugar supplement spenda everyday. Laboratory mice have developed cancers from being exposed to splenda at very high body burden levels. That does not mean if I eat a teaspoon of that stuff everyday that my 240 lb. body is going to get cancer.

When testing you must establish guides for sensitivity and specificity to try to make a conclusion. Exposing the sample epoxy to a ridiculously high cumulative UV exposure without the proper clear coat is invalid when compared to a finished cue.

The only way you can make a valid observation is to view cues produced with the 5 minute epoxy substrate that was finished with UV protected clear over a long period of time. This is beta testing and it represent a model that allow the cue to be judged downstream from the real effects from a pool cue being used as a pool cue in a pool environment.

A friend of mine has been doing it that way for over ten years and his cues have aged very well without yellowing.

CA, lacquer sanding sealers, schlack, waterborne sealers, or using no sealer all are other methods that have other consequences if not properly executed.

Yes the epoxy can yellow if used with certain other products and it is a vary valid point you make. Who wants their cue to yellow?

Rick G
 
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Tony Zinzola said:
Why would you seal your cue with an epoxy that doesn't get hard or that will eventually turn yellow?

I have said it many times. Five minute epoxy has no business anywhere in a cue, except possibly a ferrule and I wouldn't use it for that either.
Click to expand...

What is wrong with using five minute epoxy for ferrules? What and why have you found something else to be better?
 
cueman said:
What is wrong with using five minute epoxy for ferrules? What and why have you found something else to be better?
Click to expand...

Directly from West Systems Website, regarding G5 Epoxy:

An easy to use, 2-part resin/hardener system for quick repairs, tooling and general bonding. May be used in spot applications to hold parts in position while standard epoxy bonds cure. Bonds to wood, fiberglass and metal. Not recommended for long-term bonds subject to high loads or moisture. One-to-one mixture, no pumps are required. Cures in 3-5 minutes.
Click to expand...

Do you want to trust that to secure the part of your cue that is going to take the most abuse over the course of it's life?
 
Tony Zinzola said:
Directly from West Systems Website, regarding G5 Epoxy:

​

Do you want to trust that to secure the part of your cue that is going to take the most abuse over the course of it's life?
Click to expand...

Tony,

It is two ton epoxy and the strongest quick cure stuff in the world. The ad statement from west system say that because G5 is a tool for boat building and is different than 207 105 stuff because of soaking.

When using it for building or repairing boat hulls they use this stuff for tacking stringers and struts before applying the fiberglass cloth because of it's fast cure capabilities. G5 does not have the soak properties to use with the fiberglass cloth like the 105 / 207 stuff but doesn't take 18 to 24 hours to cure. It's all about the engineered viscosity component and it is exactly the reason it works so good for substrate coat applications on cues.

I have talked to the engineering staff at West a few times and they told me that if your re-coat G5 within 5 minutes you will achieve a monolithic chemical bond and do not have to wait for cure, re-scratch, and re-coat. You can also mix it with other West System products to move up the cure time when soaking is not your desire. This stuff is awesome!

After sanding and prepping my cues for substrate coating I put on 4 coats of G5 which builds up my diameter by about .012. After letting it fully cure for at least 24 hrs. (even a little longer in humid conditions), I sand with 220, then 320 after all of the high spots are leveled.

This leaves me with a beautiful perfectly flat uniform surface about 3 mills thick per side ready and scratch for spraying the clear. What is great about putting on the 4 coats in 12 to 15 minutes is that you will never burn through during sanding and you never have to back track and re-coat after waiting which was always a pain in my ass with other methods.

The slower the cure the harder the epoxies are in general and a higher tensile strengths are seen. For coating a cue G5 is way harder than the wood or clear coats and does a very good job concerning adhesion.

I have never had a ferrule fail using it and I have a very prolific cue repair business at my Billiards Cafe.

I don't use it on my pin because it cures too fast. I use Loctite HySol which take up to 36 hour and has been approved for gluing things that go onto the space shuttle. Great stuff.

Rick G

Here is a cue that is coated with G5 and sanding to a 320 scratch ready to spray. Believe me there is nothing soft about this cured and sanded finish.
IMG_3570.jpg
 
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Just my opinion, I tried G5 and did not like the bonding. I found that when, and if, the cue got banged, the finish attached to the G5 undercoat popped. I have talked to many cue makers when their cue showed up for a refinish with finish popping, so far at best guess, G5 is the problem with the equation. At the end of the day, I spend a lot of time building cues, the difference between using G5 and 207 is two days. What is two days when you have spent so much time already. Do whatever you think is good for your cues, Have a nice day.
 
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