ATTENTION- ABP News : ABP Guidelines & Format for Sanctioned Events

[stuckart]

I agree with the points you made about the Pros supporting the events...

- Pros being available before or after the rules meeting for a meet & greet with attendees
- some form of Pro-Am event for fun or a local charity
- Pros being available for some sort of clinic or something similar at some point in the event
- some scheduled autograph time

Even though, with the exception of availability for autographs and Golf Pro-Ams, these items do not happen in any other professional sport I can think of today, (PGA, NASCAR, Bowling, Rodeo, Tennis, Basketball, Golf, or whatever), I believe that type of accessibility would help promote the game.

As far as the punitive points like making the Pros get there 4 days early, pay more for entry and the like, I can't agree

The Getting there 4 days early is so they have time to do all of the other things. Travel around town with Local Players, Create a Vibe, Give Lessons to players and the youth, (Gamble if they wish), Get on the Early Morning News or Evening News in the area (this has to be easy, everyday the news has different things on), Get them on a Radio Station or two, Play Pro-Am's (Doubles, Triples).

The Entry difference is really just for them anyways. With Seedings and the Crazy Rules that Heavily Favor the Best Players in the World from Ever Losing to an Unknown, it's more money in the pot, many can have others pay their entry anyway or sponsors. Unknown's could get in to mix it up/donate to the Top Pro's for Cheaper, but still $300 is a lot to Donate. (Maybe we can count it as a tax writeoff somehow, donation to the ABP)

 

[stuckart]

Still, your post is a good one because it demonstrates skillfully that unilateral decision making by any of the parties to pro pool is a recipe for bad times in our sport.

I'm glad you caught my reasoning for the post.

Many of the requests would sound very crazy to the ABP I can imagine. But it's also not out of the question that after having 6-8 events with these outcomes that additional event sponsors and ultimately larger added monies would follow.

 

[joelpope]

The Getting there 4 days early is so they have time to do all of the other things. Travel around town with Local Players, Create a Vibe, Give Lessons to players and the youth, (Gamble if they wish), Get on the Early Morning News or Evening News in the area (this has to be easy, everyday the news has different things on), Get them on a Radio Station or two, Play Pro-Am's (Doubles, Triples).

The Entry difference is really just for them anyways. With Seedings and the Crazy Rules that Heavily Favor the Best Players in the World from Ever Losing to an Unknown, it's more money in the pot, many can have others pay their entry anyway or sponsors. Unknown's could get in to mix it up/donate to the Top Pro's for Cheaper, but still $300 is a lot to Donate. (Maybe we can count it as a tax writeoff somehow, donation to the ABP)

I understand and agree with the need for time for pro ams, promotions and the like but 1 day travel, 4 days pre tournament, 3 day tournament, 1 day travel adds up to 9 days a tournament & probably a bit much. Especially if they have back to back weekend tournaments.

I watched the stream out of Hardtimes in Sacramento, CA this weekend. Started on Saturday (actually 1 pocket started earlier) and ended Monday. Congratulations to Rodney Morris for winning, but, he got $1,000 for first place & he lives in Florida so do the math on his weekend with airfare, lodging, transportation, food and it is not a pretty picture.

I think the "crazy rules' are more about consistency. Pool is the only sport I know where rules vary by venue, as does pocket size. The hoop is always 10' high, base paths are the same length, base ball has a set number of innings, football fields & basketball courts are the same size and both have a set time for game duration, golf has standardized rules worldwide.

 

[Holly]

I understand and agree with the need for time for pro ams, promotions and the like but 1 day travel, 4 days pre tournament, 3 day tournament, 1 day travel adds up to 9 days a tournament & probably a bit much. Especially if they have back to back weekend tournaments.

I watched the stream out of Hardtimes in Sacramento, CA this weekend. Started on Saturday (actually 1 pocket started earlier) and ended Monday. Congratulations to Rodney Morris for winning, but, he got $1,000 for first place & he lives in Florida so do the math on his weekend with airfare, lodging, transportation, food and it is not a pretty picture.

I think the "crazy rules' are more about consistency. Pool is the only sport I know where rules vary by venue, as does pocket size. The hoop is always 10' high, base paths are the same length, base ball has a set number of innings, football fields & basketball courts are the same size and both have a set time for game duration, golf has standardized rules worldwide.

Joel, the tournament you're talking about was a memorial event in rememberance of the former and much loved owner of Hard Time's Billiards in Sacramento who passed away several years ago. Many players participate in the event just because of who it is about same as many who participate in our (CSI) Jay Swanson Memorial. Also who knows...Rodney might have been in Cali to begin with for a variety of reasons and decided to bundle a stop in this particular event. You are also under the assumption Rodney still lives in FL and that he traveled from there just for last weekend's event.

After reading your posts in this thread, I think you may be well intended, but it seems a little naive. I'm not saying this to offend you in any way, but just from your answers you appear to not fully know the history that causes many others on this thread to feel the way they do.

 

[John Brumback]

I agree with many of your above thoughts, but pool players are pool players, business people are business people, marketing people are too in their own class. Pool players are not able to run a business alone....period. This aspect, and a comparative, the WPBA and their core group of players running the show, are they ALLOT better off professionally/finacially than they were since the ninties? Yeah, you need money, you need to start somewhere, but you also need a business plan, marketing plan, and a working staff that shows up to work, not practice on a nine footer.

I have to agree with you Mr. Drive.I've been wanting to ask this question...
Who In the hell wrote that up anyway..a pool player?? Yeah,let them hit balls but please don't let them have any Input about a tour.I've been watching the players shoot theirselves In the foot for..oh about 30+ yeras,aint worked out very good so far. We need brains not runout artists.

Thier worried about next week not next year or the next.John B.

 

[Holly]

@ Jerry....I like some of your ideas

yes...I hear the underlying subject of it is time for eveyone to step up to promote the pro events to both local and area pool players and to the non pool community a little more.

This past May, the players of the US Open 10-Ball Championship were required as party of their entry to participate in the Challenge the Pro fundraiser for the Junior Program. Those who had matches were exempt of course. There were some, such as Earl, Tony Robles, Mike Dechaine and Darren Appleton to name a few who were there the entire two hours.

All total, there were roughly 24 or so pros stop by for the Beat the Pro fundraiser. This was out of a field of 96. While yes some players were in matches that evening, there were only 8 tournament tables in the US Open 10-Ball, so that meant 56 players did not bother to show up even for a few minutes to the charity fundraiser although they signed as part of their entry agreement to participate in the US Open event.

We reminded them at the players meeting and announced it several times. now some may have been not feeling great, preparing for their 11 pm match and trying to catch dinner. Since it was the ABP who put out this thread...let me say, out of the ABP Board of Directors I do not recollect any of them participating to help the Junior program other than John Schmidt who had an 8:30 pm match that night, so he had a legit reason for not being there..

So...what does that say...what would you find at www.dictionary.com to describe that?

 

[Island Drive]

Why wouldn't every sponsor come back with a list of demands as well:

We will honor all your requests as long as you meet all of ours.

- Top 16 will be Seeded
- The ABP will field a minimum of 50 ABP Rated Players
- Seedings will only happen after a minimum of 6 other events have established the Seeding
- Top 24 players will arrive a minimum of 4 days prior to the event.
- Top 24 players will play in numerous Pro-Am tournaments throughout the hosting location on days leading up the event.
- 16 of the Top 32 Players will each provide a free 60 minute lesson to small groups of 4 local players on each of the days leading up to the tournament at various pool rooms.
- All ABP Players will be required to stay at the Venue specified by the Event for the duration of their time.
- Seeded Players will pay $600 Entry Fee, All other ABP players will pay $500, all other players will pay a $300 Entry Fee
- ABP Spokepersons will contact Local League Operators, Local Tournament Directors and Local Pool Rooms a few weeks prior to the event to advertise the event. And will also give out signed autographed items to these organizations that will help promote the branding of these top players and the ABP as a whole.

(*more rules will be added later, these are the ABP Rule basics)

Promoters, that work with, tweak, change, implement, and brainstorm with the APB organization will not only develop a working relationship and Trust, they will actually create a product that will evolve, be better the following year, hopefully attract more interest to make the venue better and better. It's no different than what Mark Griffin is doing and has done. Does one even think the pros, with out a working staff could accomplish this, maybe, if they worked with a promoter and BUSINESSMAN and they became his solo staff for ea event, which is so needed for its success. Businesses Have to consider the bottom line like the players look at prize money, which is THEIR bottom line.

 

[stuckart]

The Extremes in my demands are there for a reason. That if the ABP can't adhere to all of them, then maybe a compromise can be made. Are they really going to field 50 rated players for every tournament?

Even though, I was thinking 1 day of travel counts as the first day of the required early arrival. 3 days of promotion, 3 days of tourney (2 days of tourney for half of field), Travel home.

(btw, Rodney got $2,000, Santos $1,450) Was that a $25,000 Added with $300+ entry fees?

There could be a standard payout structure depending on entrants as well.

Example. 64 players, $300 entry each, $25K added, Total's $44,200
1st gets $12,000 (27.1%)
2nd gets $8,000 (18.1%)
3rd = $5,400 (12.2%)
4th = $3,600 (8.1%)
5th/6th = $2,400 (5.4%)
7th/8th = $1,600 (3.6%)
9th/12th = $1,000 (2.3%)
13th/16th = $800 (1.8%)

Example. 128 players, $300 entry each, $25K added, Total's $63,400
1st $14,000 (22.1%)
2nd $10,000 (15.8%)
3rd $6,500 (10.3%)
4th $4,000 (6.3%)
5th/6th $2,600 (4.1%)
7th/8th $1,800 (2.8%)
9th/12th $1,225 (1.9%)
13th/16th $1,000 (1.6%)
17th/24th $800 (1.3%)
25th/32nd $600 (.9%)

And if everyone agree's we could knock down the top prize a little so more players receive enough to cover expenses.

Imagine if we grew the sport, got more Media Exposure, More Sponsors, and after a few years all events were $50K added or $100K added.

 

[joelpope]

Joel, the tournament you're talking about was a memorial event in rememberance of the former and much loved owner of Hard Time's Billiards in Sacramento who passed away several years ago. Many players participate in the event just because of who it is about same as many who participate in our (CSI) Jay Swanson Memorial. Also who knows...Rodney might have been in Cali to begin with for a variety of reasons and decided to bundle a stop in this particular event. You are also under the assumption Rodney still lives in FL and that he traveled from there just for last weekend's event.

After reading your posts in this thread, I think you may be well intended, but it seems a little naive. I'm not saying this to offend you in any way, but just from your answers you appear to not fully know the history that causes many others on this thread to feel the way they do.

I mean no disrespect to the tournament promoter or the family who generously added $4,000 to the prize fund. I respect both.

Rodney lives not to far from me in Spring Hill, FL. I know he has some plans following the tournament. The specific point I was trying to make is that these pros come out of pocket big time for marginal returns even if they win.

Please, do not assume my level of naivete...

 

[joelpope]

The Extremes in my demands are there for a reason. That if the ABP can't adhere to all of them, then maybe a compromise can be made. Are they really going to field 50 rated players for every tournament?

Even though, I was thinking 1 day of travel counts as the first day of the required early arrival. 3 days of promotion, 3 days of tourney (2 days of tourney for half of field), Travel home.

(btw, Rodney got $2,000, Santos $1,450) Was that a $25,000 Added with $300+ entry fees?

There could be a standard payout structure depending on entrants as well.

Example. 64 players, $300 entry each, $25K added, Total's $44,200
1st gets $12,000 (27.1%)
2nd gets $8,000 (18.1%)
3rd = $5,400 (12.2%)
4th = $3,600 (8.1%)
5th/6th = $2,400 (5.4%)
7th/8th = $1,600 (3.6%)
9th/12th = $1,000 (2.3%)
13th/16th = $800 (1.8%)

Example. 128 players, $300 entry each, $25K added, Total's $63,400
1st $14,000 (22.1%)
2nd $10,000 (15.8%)
3rd $6,500 (10.3%)
4th $4,000 (6.3%)
5th/6th $2,600 (4.1%)
7th/8th $1,800 (2.8%)
9th/12th $1,225 (1.9%)
13th/16th $1,000 (1.6%)
17th/24th $800 (1.3%)
25th/32nd $600 (.9%)

And if everyone agree's we could knock down the top prize a little so more players receive enough to cover expenses.

Imagine if we grew the sport, got more Media Exposure, More Sponsors, and after a few years all events were $50K added or $100K added.

I stand corrected, I thought I heard the stream announcer said $1K. Unfortunately, the math still doesn't really work at $2K.

I would love to see the types of payouts you describe. Although, the real money will have to come from sponsors. If you look at other sports, it is sponsor money feeding the payouts not just entry fees.

The recent Seminole Steve Mizerak event was a $50,000 added event and could not fill the fields you are describing. It is truly a shame.

I love the game, go to many tournaments and happily pay streaming fees. Further, I believe the ABP has been it's own worst enemy in the way they have communicated their desires and handled communications in general. I'm not blindly supporting them, I just think they have some valid issues that could be addressed.

 

[joelpope]

@ Jerry....I like some of your ideas

yes...I hear the underlying subject of it is time for eveyone to step up to promote the pro events to both local and area pool players and to the non pool community a little more.

This past May, the players of the US Open 10-Ball Championship were required as party of their entry to participate in the Challenge the Pro fundraiser for the Junior Program. Those who had matches were exempt of course. There were some, such as Earl, Tony Robles, Mike Dechaine and Darren Appleton to name a few who were there the entire two hours.

All total, there were roughly 24 or so pros stop by for the Beat the Pro fundraiser. This was out of a field of 96. While yes some players were in matches that evening, there were only 8 tournament tables in the US Open 10-Ball, so that meant 56 players did not bother to show up even for a few minutes to the charity fundraiser although they signed as part of their entry agreement to participate in the US Open event.

We reminded them at the players meeting and announced it several times. now some may have been not feeling great, preparing for their 11 pm match and trying to catch dinner. Since it was the ABP who put out this thread...let me say, out of the ABP Board of Directors I do not recollect any of them participating to help the Junior program other than John Schmidt who had an 8:30 pm match that night, so he had a legit reason for not being there..

So...what does that say...what would you find at www.dictionary.com to describe that?

Pretty poor behavior there... shame on them. Good example.

There's an analogy we used at work to share our culture and viewpoint with new staff. We referenced farmers versus hunters where farmers take care of their land & crop and nurture them to be successful while the hunters kill off what is easy and then move elsewhere when there is no game left.

Sounds like professional pool needs some farmer mentality.

 

[The Renfro]

Pool in the U.S. is eat what you can kill... Until the economics of the game changes I see no planting and harvesting option.....

 

[joelpope]

Pool in the U.S. is eat what you can kill... Until the economics of the game changes I see no planting and harvesting option.....

Yup.... fully agree

that's why it's so screwed up

lot's of distrust & a shrinking industry with people fighting over who gets what piece of a shrinking pie

what's sad to me is that I read posts about the economy driving a lot of the problems but I'm not sure it is all economy based

Sooner or later even T-rex runs out of food

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

From reading the announcement it seems to only state that these conditions must be met for an event to be recognized as an ABP points event. What I don't understand is what is the benefit to the promoter in this, for which he should have to meet all these criteria being laid down? The points system is something the ABP wants, not something any promoter cares about, best I can tell. Maybe down the road, if the whole ABP meant something and so did their points system, but we ain't there yet.

Oh, and call shot 9 Ball now? Where did that one come from? Speaking about having some consistency in the rules, this isn't helping.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Does 25K grow on trees? How many tournament promoters have an extra 25K lying around to donate to the ABP players? Do the players and fans spend enough in food and drinks to help the promoters recoup the money added? How many tournaments have sponsors willing to pony up 25K?

It seems to me that the ABP demands for 25K added are out of touch with economic reality.

 

[Johnnyt]

Does 25K grow on trees? How many tournament promoters have an extra 25K lying around to donate to the ABP players? Do the players and fans spend enough in food and drinks to help the promoters recoup the money added? How many tournaments have sponsors willing to pony up 25K?

It seems to me that the ABP demands for 25K added are out of touch with economic reality.

BINGO. Johnnyt

 

[stumpie71]

From reading the announcement it seems to only state that these conditions must be met for an event to be recognized as an ABP points event. What I don't understand is what is the benefit to the promoter in this, for which he should have to meet all these criteria being laid down?

Exactly what is the benefit? What are the promoters gaining? What are the top rated players bringing to the table?

 

[sjm]

Exactly what is the benefit? What are the promoters gaining? What are the top rated players bringing to the table?

At the heart of this question lies the crux of the entire matter.

The ABP pros believe that assurance of their presence alone is enough of an inducement for promoters to add a minimum of $25,000. It's an opinion to which they are entitled.

Indeed, this is the principle upon which most pool tours are born. Having a list of members that are committed to participation in all events that are sanctioned, at least in theory, ensures that the professional pool product dlievered will be of high quality, which should make the pursuit of sponsorship money and the sale of event tickets easy for the promoters. As we've seen, however, in recent years, the presence of an elite field hardly guarantees that sponsorship money and ticket sales will allow the promoters to turn a profit in their events.

In pool, it's the dilemma of our times. Do you pay the players more to make sure they stay the competitive course in bad times or do you pay them less to make sure that pool's business model does not collapse? Whatever the answer, there is something fundamentally unacceptable in having the players unilaterally setting the wage scale.

 

[Scott Lee]

sjm...It's not at all surprising. It's the same problem that has always existed in men's pro pool, and the previous many attempts at a professional organization...the group is all chiefs, and there are no indians!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I don't see their unwillingness to explain as the fundamental problem.

It's their process and their packaging that reak.

Compare their press release to the following hypothetical press release:
________________________________________________________


To Promoters,

ABP has established its business guidelines and here they are:

detailed guidelines go here

APB would like to thank the following persons for their guidance in the establishment of these guidleines: person 1, person 2, person 3, person 4.

Upon review of the finalized guidelines, some key figures in the pool industry made the following comments:

ABP Member 1: I think this is a step forward for professional players.

ABP Member 2: These guidelines make me feel more positive about continuing to pursue a career in pro pool.

Sponsor 1: I like what I see here and feel it serves the game's future well.

Promoter 1: I support the ABP in their mission and approve of these guidelines.

Avid Fan 1: I like what I see here, and can't wait to attend ABP events.

We look forward to pursuing our vision to deliver a premium pool product for our players, sponsors, promoters, and fans.

Sincerely, The ABP

___________________________________________________________


Not very similar to what we found in the original post, for these reasons:

1) input was not solicited from many of the parties whose finances are greatly affected by the introduction of these policies and guidelines.

2) even after the guidelines were finalized, no feedback was sought from key figures in the industry certain to be called on to help the ABP mission become a reality.

In short, had the release evidenced a collaborative process and offered the insights of key figures in the possible realization of ABP's dreams to validate their direction, I'd have not expected them to answer any questions.

It is because every indication is that these rules were not the result of a collaborative process and that key industry figures are not on board that so many quesitons remain unanswered.

And, finally, nobody is quite sure whose decisions these are, making it all seem a bit impersonal as a communication.

 

[Scott Lee]

Well said...I totally agree! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Mark, semi-related to this, I just want to thank you and Greg for all you two do for pool. I know you don't have to do the pro events and most of your income is amateur. Even though some of the pro's may not see it, thanks for putting things together so I can have a little entertainment in the world of pool.

That's what all this is afterall, entertainment. It is a symbiotic relationship between players, promoters, and fans. Without any of the three there would be no professional pool. I appreciate your efforts in putting on great, classy events.