Mark Griffin TAR Interview - My Thoughts

phone hasnt rang ......just trying to stay on task here,have you answerd the "what have you done for the sport yet".........oh and my minor details are chronalogically correct, and facts!

I can't think up all your ideas, or continue to show you how to sell to people.

Don't you get paid, you should be able to figure out somethings for yourself.

This exchange has gone on long enough. It is time you start earning your keep instead of using my ideas and words. The only time you have something to say is when I talk.

Try to find ways to be original. That is my last bit of advice for the night. The rest is your career, you should be able to figure it out.
 
The standards? Kevin definitely took the airbarrel to a new level. And since promoters around the world are stiffing, slow paying, taking out "fees and taxes" and jacking with formats and rules I'd say that they are following Kevin's lead quite well.

If Kevin showed up tomorrow and did it all exactly the same way then just about everyone would be on board again.

That's the nature of life. People who show up with food get followed.

You've managed to take one phrase from my post and go overboard with it.

How does it really feel?

Besides this is off topic, this thread is about developing solutions for right now not 6 years ago. Where were you then?
 
Pretty good thread for the first 100 posts or so. At this point, however, I'm becoming somewhat embarrassed at having started it. I look forward to seeing this thread on page 6 of the main forum sooner rather than later.
 
Justnum please just shut your pie hole.... The old saying "that it is better to let people think you are an idiot than to open your mouth and prove it" is long gone by now....

When you actually educate yourself on the history of pool promotion and on who the actual industry people are on here you are trying to argue with come back with something intelligent.... So far I look at the list of people you want to argue with and I find great humor that you would even try and enter into debates with any of these people... You are no one and have done nothing but make posts behind a keyboard.... IF you really want to help... Ask what you can do... Don't try and TELL anyone about how todo anything when everything that comes out of your mouth has so far either been wrong or sheer opinion....

At this point all I can do and recommend to others is to add you to ignore until you either grow up or get back on your meds.

Passion is wonderful and CAN move mountains but couple passion with ignorance and you get... well I guess I need JAM's help on what that would be but at the moment the only word that comes to mind is Justnum.... If you are going to argue and debate get an education first....
 
Pretty good thread for the first 100 posts or so. At this point, however, I'm becoming somewhat embarrassed at having started it. I look forward to seeing this thread on page 6 of the main forum sooner rather than later.

That old saying 'one bad apple spoils the bunch' holds true, sjm.
 
Some advice: Don't post while intoxicated.

I can manage to put up with your creative opinions. But there is being creative and then there is just drunk posting.

Your most recent post was a drunk post.

If you can't handle a small comment, just read about a different one. No one is expecting you to go over every detail of every post. Just let it go.

Kevin Trudeau just called..... He said to tell you to put some ice on his nuggets.
 
Pretty good thread for the first 100 posts or so. At this point, however, I'm becoming somewhat embarrassed at having started it. I look forward to seeing this thread on page 6 of the main forum sooner rather than later.

I wish that there was some way we could vote a person off the island. Or at least vote his posts off a thread.

Like plus or minus button and if a guy gets enough minuses then all his posts disappear from the thread. That would keep people in line.

John - (pretty sure I'd get tossed to the sharks a few times....)
 
I wish that there was some way we could vote a person off the island. Or at least vote his posts off a thread.

Like plus or minus button and if a guy gets enough minuses then all his posts disappear from the thread. That would keep people in line.

John - (pretty sure I'd get tossed to the sharks a few times....)

But not nearly as quickly as this individual, for certain....
 
Getting it back on track!

Turn back now if you're not in the mood for a long post!

I just watched the superb TAR interview of Mark Griffin by Justin (JCIN). It dealt with: a) upcoming American pool events, b) the ABP mess and problems, c) bonus ball, its potential positives and some of its illogic, d) the decline of American men's pro pool and reasons for it, e) the scarcity of youth programs to steer American kids to pool, f) the fact that men's pool events rarely turn a profit for American promoters, and g) relocation of BCAPL events to the Rio in 2013. Justin and Mark chatted about these topics, and I agreed with most of what they said. I'd like to review and comment on their chat as it pertained to the state of men's pro pool in America.

The Decline of American Men's Pro Pool - Background
Outside of Shane, male American pros are in a slump. They achieved little in the past year in overseas events (in large part, due to reduced participation). More notably, they came up short in American-based events with big fields and significant participation from foreign players. The last eleven such events, in which eight foreigners won, were: 1) 2010 US Open 9-ball (Appleton), 2) 2011 DCC Banks (Pagulayan), 3) 2011 DCC One Pocket (Van Boening), 4) 2011 DCC 9-ball (Orcullo), 5) 2011 DCC 14.1 (Appleton), 6) 2011 Super Billiards Expo 10-ball (Souquet), 7) 2011 US Open One Pocket (Reyes), 8) 2011 US Open 10-ball (Van Boening), 9) 2011 Straight Pool Championship (Hohmann), 10) 2011 Turning Stone XVII (Morris), 11) 2011 US Open 9-ball (Appleton). Yes, American pros not named Shane are rarely the ones to beat on American soil, and there's no reason to think that this will change anytime soon.

The State of American Men's Pro Pool and Pool's Tough Business Model - Mark and Justin's Analysis
Where has it gone wrong, Mark and Justin pondered? Mark spoke of the fact that, Shane aside, few American players have the work ethic found among top foreign stars, and concluded it was due to insufficient financial incentive. The American pool pro, he observed, can earn more performing menial jobs such as pumping gas, while Filipino and Chinese pros can earn amounts that are substantial in the context of the economies of their homelands. Mark added that lack of US Olympic funding is another difference, explaining that pool as an Olympic sport is improbable, and is impossible until 2020, so no such funds will be available to American pros in the short-term.

How then, Mark and Justin pondered together, will the economy of men's pool be fueled in America? As they saw it, it would come from either a) the appearance of an angel, meaning a Trudeau type who would invest heavily in pool without much substantiation of income prospects, b) a grassroots effort to grow the game, or c) the passion of those who produce events (like the two of them) despite insubstantial profit potential. Mark joked that, despite being 65 years old, he's in this business for the long run! That's comforting.

Mark and Justin dismissed the angel idea as improbable as a long-term solution. If an angel were to emerge, they noted, the hard economic facts of the game would cause them to walk away in short order, much as Kevin Trudeau did. Mark noted the scarcity of youth programs to introduce kids to pool, and Justin added something here that I thought very important. He noted that many parents don't let their kids go to poolrooms because of pool's image and this hinders the growth of the sport. I think it will take both youth programs and a more kid-friendly atmosphere in America's poolrooms to jumpstart what Justin referred to as a grassroots effort to grow the game. Justin, quite correctly pointed out, and Mark agreed, that such a grassroots effort might take a decade. Hence, they concluded that the persistence of promoters that produce American events despite the sobering profit potential is, in all probability, a key to the immediate future. Mark spoke of how he is raising money, through his BCA pool leagues, to help fund pro events and, ultimately, to help finance the participation of American pros in overseas events. This is very admirable, but also quite remarkable, given that ABP continues to exclude promoters like him from the task of mapping out a strategy to sustain men's pro pool in America.

Mark, finally, shared his plans for producing some new pro events to coincide with the BCAPL tournaments in Vegas starting in 2013.

Summing it Up
Piecing it all together, then, the state of pro pool in America is this:

a) Aside from Van Boening, American pros are gradually falling off the world's pool map.
b) The economics of the game continue to make a career in pro pool less attractive to Americans.
c) Although there are some, America needs far more youth programs for pool to grow.
d) The fact that poolrooms in America are not seen as kid-friendly deters parents from introducing kids to pool.
e) Promoters that invest in pool despite poor income prospects in the short-term are vital to sustaining American pro pool.
f) American professional players are trying to steer pro pool's ship alone, leaving promoters out of the decision loop.

I'm glad to see that Mark and Justin, two key figures in pool, have such a solid grasp of the realities of men's pro pool in America. I admire them for not being deterred by the tough challenges the sport faces.

Nobody in recent times has done more than Mark Griffin to keep pro pool alive in America, and his persistence in producing events and diverting funds from his leagues to support the pros is remarkable. To my delight, Mark shared his hopes to produce a) US Open Ten Ball, b) US Open One-Pocket, c) US Open 14.1, and d) US Open 8-ball, in Vegas in 2013, to be played during the BCAPL events. I hope American pros will work with rather than against him to make his dream a reality.

Conclusion
Thanks you Justin and Mark Griffin for this wonderful, enlightening interview. Well done, gentlemen. - SJM
 
Football cannot even be compared to pool. First of all, football is a team sport and not an individual sport. Pool is boring to watch even to hardcore fans. Football has primal appeal with action and violence. Thousands can comfortably watch a football game in person, a handful can watch pool.

Now for the fact that there is one NFL, MLB, NBA. It isn't because these sports got together and decided it was in the best interest of the sport to have one league. They were businesses first. One business consumed the other smaller businesses. Just like the big box companies are swallowing up the mom and pops. With the exclusion of baseball, most other sports are constantly changing and adapting their rules. Baseball was almost perfectly designed from the start.

The pool organization with the most stable business plan is the APA. Unfortunately, they have the worst playing system and no interest in bringing the pool world together for the best interest of the sport. As with every business, their decisions are based on what is in their best interest.



Well if you want to talk about an Individual Sport, let try GOLF, and the PGA for a business model. Check out their home page, and I honestly do not get the Golf thing, but million play it world wide.
 
Well if you want to talk about an Individual Sport, let try GOLF, and the PGA for a business model. Check out their home page, and I honestly do not get the Golf thing, but million play it world wide.

I agree. If you want to compare pool to other professional sports, golf, tennis, boxing, and dare I say bowling are much more comparable. Boxing is probably most similar to pool. No unified belt system, fights can take place anywhere (unlike golf), dumping and high potential for corruption.
 
Most people believe Henry Ford invented the automobile, but he didn't. In fact, he had four companies that went under before he finally came with a successful business model.

Ford assembled the Model T based on the discoveries of other men before him that had centuries of research behind them. Had he come with the Model T before the time that he did, it would have failed miserably.

"Progress happens when all the factors that make for it are ready, and then it is inevitable. To teach that a comparatively few men are responsible for the greatest forward steps of mankind is the worst sort of nonsense," Ford said.

Success is about innovation. Risk and failure do not necessarily mean breakthroughs, as we've seen often in the pool world. Allen Hopkins came with the Skins Billiard Championship. It was a risk, a good risk, but it just didn't catch on.

If one sells a better product, then people will find a hard-beaten road to their door. If somehow an entrepreneur could figure out how to elevate pool to a new height in popularity, it will sell. The combination of risk, failure, and breakthrough is how Henry Ford succeeded. Hope pool can find the right combination, learn from the past, take a risk on something new, and find that magic balance. :smile:
 
If one sells a better product, then people will find a hard-beaten road to their door.

That is a myth that most of us have been led to believe. Many people have created a better mouse trap, but the best seller is still the classic one we all know.

There are several factors that make a company successful and unfortunately, quality is not necessarily at the top of the board. McDonalds is not the best value for the dollar and definitely not the best product to put in your body. WalMart sells stuff that basically starts to fall apart as you are walking out of the store.

A high price doesn't mean you are getting a quality product either.
 
That is a myth that most of us have been led to believe. Many people have created a better mouse trap, but the best seller is still the classic one we all know.

There are several factors that make a company successful and unfortunately, quality is not necessarily at the top of the board. McDonalds is not the best value for the dollar and definitely not the best product to put in your body. WalMart sells stuff that basically starts to fall apart as you are walking out of the store.

A high price doesn't mean you are getting a quality product either.

The most popular mousetrap is the Victor model, which first was introduced in 1897. It has not changed fundamentally. There are two major breakthroughs, however, in the mousetrap industry since then: cheese-scented plastic and marketing. It's the marketing aspect that will bring success. You just have to know *who* to market to, especially in this pool world. This is where I think pool is missing the mark.

The idea is not the end; the idea is not the beginning. It's the end of the beginning. Very simply put, the network is the innovation. Ideas are already out there about pool, but the challenge is putting them together in a network that is viable and capable of growing, evolving on its own. It's about connecting, and only then can ideas have impact.
 
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The most popular mousetrap is the Victor model, which first was introduced in 1897. It has not changed fundamentally. There are two major breakthroughs, however, in the mousetrap industry since then: cheese-scented plastic and marketing. It's the marketing aspect that will bring success. You just have to know *who* to market to, especially in this pool world. This is where I think pool is missing the mark.

It's about branding period.

Image, reputation, market positioning are all things thats matter in business. Pool has brands. The APA, BCAPS, VNEA, NAPA, TAP are all "brands." The APA business model reminds me of Amway. They get others to market and expand their product reach.

In the pro-level, the players become highly associated with the brand. Payton Manning with the NFL, Tiger with golf, Pujols with MLB. The pro could (if they were smart enough) exploit their personalities for their best interest. I'm not an Earl fan like many of you, but he does bring an entertainment value to the sport. So did Fats...it was his character, not playing ability, that entertained the audience. The WWE or WWF or whatever the hell it is, learned how to exploit their product a long time ago.

Sadly, I'm convinced I will hit the lottery before pool ever becomes anything of importance.
 
It's about branding period.

Image, reputation, market positioning are all things thats matter in business. Pool has brands. The APA, BCAPS, VNEA, NAPA, TAP are all "brands." The APA business model reminds me of Amway. They get others to market and expand their product reach.

In the pro-level, the players become highly associated with the brand. Payton Manning with the NFL, Tiger with golf, Pujols with MLB. The pro could (if they were smart enough) exploit their personalities for their best interest. I'm not an Earl fan like many of you, but he does bring an entertainment value to the sport. So did Fats...it was his character, not playing ability, that entertained the audience. The WWE or WWF or whatever the hell it is, learned how to exploit their product a long time ago.

Sadly, I'm convinced I will hit the lottery before pool ever becomes anything of importance.

I edited my post and added more.

If you get a chance, check out this guy. He knows how to effect a change based on networking with known entities: Frederick Terman.

In particular, this: After the war Terman returned to Stanford and was appointed dean of the School of Engineering. In 1951 he spearheaded the creation of Stanford Industrial Park (now Stanford Research Park), whereby the University leased portions of its land to high-tech firms. Companies such as Varian Associates, Hewlett-Packard, Eastman Kodak, General Electric, and Lockheed Corporation moved into Stanford Industrial Park and made the mid-Peninsula area into a hotbed of innovation which eventually became known as Silicon Valley.

The pool world could learn much from this man's strategy for success. ;)
 
I can't think up all your ideas, or continue to show you how to sell to people.

Don't you get paid, you should be able to figure out somethings for yourself.

This exchange has gone on long enough. It is time you start earning your keep instead of using my ideas and words. The only time you have something to say is when I talk.

Try to find ways to be original. That is my last bit of advice for the night. The rest is your career, you should be able to figure it out.

I admit when I first read this I was pissed.

Then I thought about how in a just and true world I would get to see you say these things to Nasty in person in a nice private setting with no witnesses.

That made me smile and I wasn't pissed anymore.
 
I can't think up all your ideas, or continue to show you how to sell to people.

Don't you get paid, you should be able to figure out somethings for yourself.

This exchange has gone on long enough. It is time you start earning your keep instead of using my ideas and words. The only time you have something to say is when I talk.

Try to find ways to be original. That is my last bit of advice for the night. The rest is your career, you should be able to figure it out.

It takes a special kind of stupid to say things like this. You have absolutely no idea what you're saying or talking about. I guess being a masked internet keyboard hero makes it much easier to just talk endless nonsense and not have to face to heat for your own words. Its hard to get mad at this kind of stupid... you cannot argue with it. You will drag us down to your level of stupid and beat us with year and years of experience. Son continue saying the dumbest sh*t you can possible come up with and I hope it makes you feel good... cause everyone knows you're opinion means NOTHING. As soon as you decide to take your mask off, let me know. I like to put a face to the name I'm laughing at.
 
I agree with all of that except the stalemate condition. Snooker has long safety battles at times that are crucial to winning the frame and the fans enjoy those moments every bit as much as the century runs, it is in the safety battles that you have a chance to see the amazing kick shots, masse shots, ect... Each and every tough return safety has the game on the line.

I grew up playing snooker, and now play 1-pocket so you won't find me disagreeing with the value in strategic and safety play. However, pool has to be sold to people whom I've seen complain on streams about "boring" safety play in 9-ball. My interest is in finding a balance between what players love and what the masses want to see.

My opinions of course, are just that, opinions. I'm neither set in stone about them, or hopeful it would ever happen. I put the ideas out there because there may be a promoter looking for a way to market pool as a sport in North America. Holly and Mark had great points about players responsibility and conduct. But that has to be combined with something people understand and see a parallel with in their own lives (8-ball being the game of choice by the votes of the people who support the industry).
 
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