1000$ a day. How many club memberships is it going to take ?
Wanted/For Sale Section to Change in New Year
- Thread starter Jerry Forsyth
- Start date
LOL
No kidding. Besides if we were to get big enough to where you could handle the 1K a day on Club memberships, the legal fees would be 15K a day.
Kevin
Can the new cue makers keep posting in the cue gallery? That way if someone sees a new cue in the works, they can contact them.
If you are considering allowing the wfs section to operate as it has been, I believe that a few simple forum software changes could eliminate most complaints with the section and increase revenue to assist with your incurred legal fees.
Issue credits with the purchase of club membership. Require that only club members can post in the wfs section and each new thread or post within the section debits 1 credit from the users account. Any user can purchase as many club memberships as their posting habits in the section requires and their membership will last one year from their most recent membership purchase only. Non club member users can still purchase and ask questions through PM just not post to the thread. Lastly a simple price field next to the title that requires a numeric input prior to successful submission of the thread would be appropriate.
The number of credits issued per membership could be based on the wfs forum statistics for threads created this year. Figure in a 20% reduction in new threads with this change and you should also have a very good idea of the income that will be generated.
This change will in effect obtain similar results to other suggestions with out increasing the moderators work load. It will handle the bumping issues and negative comments in sales threads also, in essence killing multiple birds with a single stone.
Wow, A lot to digest in this thread!
Some Ideas!!!!
The info part of the listing is not the problem! Its listing a PRICE The easiest thing to do is substitute a code for the PRICE!!!! Example: Use Letters for price instead of Numbers!!! A=0 B=1 C=2 D=3 E=4 F=5 G=6 H=7 I=8 J=9
So
The Price is 2200 for the cue or CCAA for the cue!!!! Members know what it means and it legally keeps AZB out of any litigation! AZB defense is pretty clear because a price was not listed technically!!!
To be even safer don't use certain words like asking for X or looking for Y Just place the price in brackets like (2200) would be (CCAA) like in above example.
its all a legal shell game!!!
KD
Some Ideas!!!!
The info part of the listing is not the problem! Its listing a PRICE The easiest thing to do is substitute a code for the PRICE!!!! Example: Use Letters for price instead of Numbers!!! A=0 B=1 C=2 D=3 E=4 F=5 G=6 H=7 I=8 J=9
So
The Price is 2200 for the cue or CCAA for the cue!!!! Members know what it means and it legally keeps AZB out of any litigation! AZB defense is pretty clear because a price was not listed technically!!!
To be even safer don't use certain words like asking for X or looking for Y Just place the price in brackets like (2200) would be (CCAA) like in above example.
its all a legal shell game!!!
KD
Nothing makes sense, nor does it have to. If the powers that be decide to change the way the WFS section is ran or do away with it all together no one can do anything about it. People can complain in this thread and make accusations or spout out alternatives but that will come to no avail. Instead of starting this thread and giving everyone a place to vent and ask the same questions over and over and over, a sticky should have been created or just closed the thread after the first post. The only thing anyone knows after almost 10,000 views and over 200 posts is that AZBs WFS section is changing after the first of the year and they are being hit with $1000 a day in legal fees. No one knows how it is changing or if it will be obsolete after Jan 1. Buying and selling on here is a woderfull privilege for people like you and I as well as many other honest and upstanding members and its a real shame a few people can ruin something for so many.
This "$1,000 a day" talk may be highly misleading. It could be read to mean AZB is spending an average of $1,000 a day throughout the year or over long periods of time. I've got a hunch it really means that on the fairly rare occasions when AZB actually has to hire lawyers, the costs are something like $1,000 a day for those short periods. Right? Wrong?
Man, that girl in the pool is sexy and she knows it for sure. I like how she glances breifly at her butt as she says with her eyes "you know I know that I am super hot and you also know that I know exactly how to do certian things". She says a lot with those eyes as she floats in the water. Excellent job!!
Total privilege to use and total shame to lose. I agree with you 100%
However, although I would have agreed with your assessment that discussing the changes are is useless a few days ago, it seems to me that Jerry has indicated that some thoughts expressed here have caused them to rethink, or at least, agree to discuss (maybe only among themselves) the proposed changes. So maybe this discussion has not been all for naught.
Power to the people, brother
Thanks
Kevin
Yeah I think the 1K a day (hopefully) is like that old game "gossip", one or two many mouths and too many ears between the original information and the post.
Hopefully
The focus on policy change should address abuse and enforcement, not exclusion.
The majority of us who buy cues & accessories do not want to exclude cuemakers, casemakers, dealers, brokers, Kevin,
or even the tip guy.
The majority of us who buy cues & accessories do not want to exclude cuemakers, casemakers, dealers, brokers, Kevin,
or even the tip guy.
The wanted / for sale section was never intended for people to use as an advertising arm or for a business,
which I think is creating the problems.
The intent of the WFS was for members to sell or trade their billiard related items,
and a link to a personal item on Ebay once in a while was not a big deal.
As the AZ membership grew the abuse by several so-called dealers, and people who think this is Ebay
or Craigslist grew with it.
Somewhere members lost sight of what AZ is all about, and here we are with long standing members who are
great craftsman or terrific sellers, worried about the future.
I doubt the lawsuits have anything to do with our craftsman, or contributing members selling personal billiard related items.
Exclusion without representation is tyranny.
I'm going to throw all of my cues in the Boston Harbor
which I think is creating the problems.
The intent of the WFS was for members to sell or trade their billiard related items,
and a link to a personal item on Ebay once in a while was not a big deal.
As the AZ membership grew the abuse by several so-called dealers, and people who think this is Ebay
or Craigslist grew with it.
Somewhere members lost sight of what AZ is all about, and here we are with long standing members who are
great craftsman or terrific sellers, worried about the future.
I doubt the lawsuits have anything to do with our craftsman, or contributing members selling personal billiard related items.
Exclusion without representation is tyranny.
I'm going to throw all of my cues in the Boston Harbor
I had a similar idea, Jamie.
The reality is this: the W/FS section was originally set up to mirror your local newspaper's Want ads. It was meant as a place a person could come to occasionally sell an item, at no cost. It was a 'perk' of being an AZB member. I think that those who only occasionally list items, should not be penalized by those who have decided to include the W/FS section on AZB, along with it's free advertising, as part of their business plan. It's never a good idea to put all your eggs into one basket...especially when that basket is owned and operated by someone else. The free advertising was a nice 'perk'...but it is certainly not something we are entitled to.
I feel the same formula that Jamie mentions above should also be applicable to cue makers...as there are some, like Brent, that fairly rarely list a new cue for sale, while there are others that are listing their cues constantly for sale, which is causing those, like Brent, to be penalized.
New production cues being sold here just does not make sense to me as there are a plethora of billiard stores on the Net that sell production cues...many at reasonable prices. So I would have to vote 'yes' on banning new production cue sales. If I were looking for a new production cue, I would just go to Pooldawg or Muellers, where I know my purchase is protected.
Dealers are another animal altogether. I am not a big fan, but they do serve their purpose. My biggest issue is that most of them do little beyond posting their ads. An example would be that while Jamie is a dealer...he actually contributes more in overall content than he posts sales ads, and typically when he does post about incoming available cues, he just links you to his site.
There's no doubt that a revamp of the W/FS section's rules are in order...it's way too much of a mine field as it currently exists. New cue sales banned altogether may not be the best solution, due to the many variables...cue makers and collectors come to mind. But it is obvious that something needs to be done.
Lisa
This Make No Sense
New Cue & Case Sales WITH Exceptions does make sense...
New Cue & Case Sales WIHOUT Exception is a blind decision...
There is a distinction between production custom cues and custom cues.
McDermott, Predator, etc.... and the like
Vs.
Rick Howard, Southwest, Mottey, Blackboar, etc and the like
Production cases would follow the same pattern.
JB Cases, Justis Cases, etc VS. Predator Cases, Mc Dermott cases, etc...
There is a major difference ......
New Custom made cues and cases should be allowed unless they are being sold by one of those under contract as a wholesaler...........
Simple.......
IMHHO
New Cue & Case Sales WITH Exceptions does make sense...
New Cue & Case Sales WIHOUT Exception is a blind decision...
There is a distinction between production custom cues and custom cues.
McDermott, Predator, etc.... and the like
Vs.
Rick Howard, Southwest, Mottey, Blackboar, etc and the like
Production cases would follow the same pattern.
JB Cases, Justis Cases, etc VS. Predator Cases, Mc Dermott cases, etc...
There is a major difference ......
New Custom made cues and cases should be allowed unless they are being sold by one of those under contract as a wholesaler...........
Simple.......
IMHHO
I read a bit of the stuff in this post. Some great ideas some not so much.
The point I think that may be missed is how to prevent the owners from being sued. If a blanket Disclaimer won't do it then how do they protect themselves? Now anybody can sue anybody for anything. There are supposed to be regs. to help prevent frivolous suits but how do you definre frivolous?
So how do they protect themselves from things they have little control over?
Had more to say but its time to go home
The point I think that may be missed is how to prevent the owners from being sued. If a blanket Disclaimer won't do it then how do they protect themselves? Now anybody can sue anybody for anything. There are supposed to be regs. to help prevent frivolous suits but how do you definre frivolous?
So how do they protect themselves from things they have little control over?
Had more to say but its time to go home
i always post the cues we have coming for the azers to have first dibbs and always cheaper than i advertise them on my site as a favorable gesture to those who are members. i know i get a lot of people that watch for new cues to come. and i never abuse or bump just to bump. a lot can be cleaned if the massive amounts of bumping was curbed.I will abide by what ever jerry and the crew chose to implement !and i stand behind there decisions which ever way they go but i believe this is a possible mess that will hurt the wanted for sale , and policing this could be next to impossible. i can name 25 heavy posters that are dealers that dont have web site but consume the forums. and all have knowledge to help people move things. I hope that the right moves are made that does not cause massive dissent, because when you make change to somthing soo used ( you will never make all who travel here happy) Good luck jerry and we will stand behind you. just do a statcounter program or some thing to watch the numbers and see what happens! God be with you and merry christmas
i also tried banners and only got 3-5 hits a day so it was not effective i have no problem being a supportive member at 500.00 per year payable in advance type of thing
it looks like pretty much any one with more than 15 i trader would be considered dealer?
The reason I agreed about the new production cues is because they can be had anywhere...including the AZB Marketplace. The only potential benefit to AZB members is perhaps a lower price than is already out there, but honestly, they can only go so low before violating their agreement with whichever company they are offering....so there is no real advantage to keeping them....there are plenty of places to buy a new production cue. I am not targeting all production cues...just the new ones. Many of the older models have actually gained in value over the years, and there are faithful collectors to many brands.
Customs are not as readily available, can be almost impossible to get from certain makers, and the places they can be found are much, much more limited. Example: Brent most often posts up in the Cue Gallery cues he has completed for a customer. It can take a while to get a cue from him. The last cue he posted an actual FS ad for, was one leftover from the most recent cue show. Brent does not typically have available cues for sale, because he has developed a following. This was an opportunity for someone who may have wanted one of his cues, but maybe didn't want to wait, or it had the exact woods in it that they liked...to purchase one. It rarely happens, was really no big deal, and he contributes to AZB frequently. He's not abusing the system. There are others who do...some posting a half dozen or more cues a month. They are relying on the AZB W/FS as part of their business plan...which, IMHO, is a huge mistake.
Look, the solution is pretty simple actually. I can think of a few cue and case makers who have not relied on the W/FS to drive their sales. Instead, they post up photos of a cue or case they have just completed, often for a customer....in the Cue Gallery. A picture is worth a thousand words. Throw in a few testimonials....and sales are generated.
BTW...I believe you posted earlier in this or another thread about derogatory/negative comments being made concerning pricing/condition of an item for sale. It is already a rule that this type of behavior is not condoned in an active W/FS thread. If you see it happening, you need to report it.
Lisa