High English Thoughts
- Thread starter elvicash
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Randy,
For a shot of this power, 12" minimum follow through is required. Anything less and the cueball will not even move!
(The high speed video gets *really* interesting during the part between the tip contact and the end of the follow through...)Seriously though, I think when people say things like this, they are inadvertently performing a logical operation (maybe lol). It might go like this:
--the correct follow through is the distance required for the stroke to naturally come to rest and "finish".
--a faster moving cue will have more momentum at impact and hence require more distance to naturally come to rest. (assuming there is nothing it its path, like a torso)
--If I hit the ball with lots of speed, I will have a long follow through (assuming I am an elbow dropper...)
--Thus power shots for elbow droppers often result in a longer follow through
Anyway, that is my hypothesis on what people mean (or *should* mean) when they say "that shot requires a lot of follow through". I think it goes back to the traditional sports idea that you swing "through" the ball.
KMRUNOUT
Randy,
For a shot of this power, 12" minimum follow through is required. Anything less and the cueball will not even move!
Seriously though, I think when people say things like this, they are inadvertently performing a logical operation (maybe lol). It might go like this:
--the correct follow through is the distance required for the stroke to naturally come to rest and "finish".
--a faster moving cue will have more momentum at impact and hence require more distance to naturally come to rest. (assuming there is nothing it its path, like a torso)
--If I hit the ball with lots of speed, I will have a long follow through (assuming I am an elbow dropper...)
--Thus power shots for elbow droppers often result in a longer follow through
Anyway, that is my hypothesis on what people mean (or *should* mean) when they say "that shot requires a lot of follow through". I think it goes back to the traditional sports idea that you swing "through" the ball.
KMRUNOUT
So, are you saying that if you hit a shot at break speed with a 6 inch follow through the cue ball after contacting the object ball won't move? I'd like to see the physics behind your shot.
Please indulge me and elaborate how you calculate the required number of inches required for the follow through. Thanks,I believe you're looking at this incorrectly, you actually have two scenarios. One, the attempt to "over-spin" a cue ball by hitting it with a cue stick. The second is the implied "top/forward" spin on a cue ball after contacting an object ball at any given velocity.
I think the problem is that you have to look at a few different things. When you use top english you are inducing a forward roll. That forward roll then translate's into "follow" after the object ball is contacted. That roll is what makes the cue ball follow. If you were to hit a ball slow with a center ball hit, and allow it to have roll applied to it via friction on the billiard cloth, the cue ball would also "follow" once striking an object ball.
Anyways, the more "roll" a ball has, the more "follow" that is induced. Using top english on a cue ball allows you to apply more roll at a shorter distance then would naturally occur when letting a ball roll on it's own volition.
I am sure Dr. Dave has some math that would tell you how much roll you can apply to a cue ball, and then show you how hard you would have to hit a cue ball and how long you would have to let it "roll" before you could replicate the same "follow" using a center ball hit.
Anyways, maybe the question is the problem and not the understanding
I think it's been proven through high speed video that the cue ball doesn't have overspin as it rolls toward the object ball, no matter the seeming difficulty or pretty curve of the cue ball after impact. There may be some small amount of overspin right when the cueball is struck, but certain not as it's rolling toward the object ball.
The fancy-type shots where the cue ball is made to hit a ball or rail and then take off at a crazy angle is all done by hitting the cueball very high (70% is pretty high considering the bottom part of the tip has to hit there) and at speed, and sometimes some slight elevation is needed to keep the ball airborne as well. Especially when playing billiards, it's easier to get that "force follow" action from a distance because the natural roll and speed does it's thing, the problem is getting that accurate full hit on the object ball, which is why it sometimes can seem that being closer and "force following" the ball works better.
As for the object ball / cue ball last argument, I agree that conventional teaching has us looking at the OB last. I for one was self taught and primarily look at the CB last. I've tried a few times to change that habit, one time was almost successful but then I quit for 6 years and when I started playing again - CB last again... It can be detrimental on certain shots where it's easier to "steer" the CB to help with position when you don't have an eye on the OB to see how you are changing the aim, but that mostly happens when I'm playing bad and is more a factor of stroke mechanics not where I'm looking. As others have said, once you are locked in it shouldn't really matter what you do, although in practice that's easier said than done sometimes.
For every hammer/nail or rifle analogy there are also counter analogies of putting in golf or other stick-based sports where you watch the contact point of the "stick" and the ball, not where you are hitting it. Try putting while looking at the hole and not the back of the golf ball - it's weird at first but again shouldn't matter if your stroke is pure. I guess cause I was self taught and used a lot of spin (not advisable, but that's how I learned) it mattered more to me that I was hitting the cue ball where intended and had that as last visual feedback as opposed to looking at the OB - assumed if I was lined up, and hit the CB where intended, the OB would take care of itself. Don't think it's that important to shoot at a high level, if you're PSR and mechanics are solid and your aim/focus is pure the balls will still drop...
Scott
The fancy-type shots where the cue ball is made to hit a ball or rail and then take off at a crazy angle is all done by hitting the cueball very high (70% is pretty high considering the bottom part of the tip has to hit there) and at speed, and sometimes some slight elevation is needed to keep the ball airborne as well. Especially when playing billiards, it's easier to get that "force follow" action from a distance because the natural roll and speed does it's thing, the problem is getting that accurate full hit on the object ball, which is why it sometimes can seem that being closer and "force following" the ball works better.
As for the object ball / cue ball last argument, I agree that conventional teaching has us looking at the OB last. I for one was self taught and primarily look at the CB last. I've tried a few times to change that habit, one time was almost successful but then I quit for 6 years and when I started playing again - CB last again...
It can be detrimental on certain shots where it's easier to "steer" the CB to help with position when you don't have an eye on the OB to see how you are changing the aim, but that mostly happens when I'm playing bad and is more a factor of stroke mechanics not where I'm looking. As others have said, once you are locked in it shouldn't really matter what you do, although in practice that's easier said than done sometimes.For every hammer/nail or rifle analogy there are also counter analogies of putting in golf or other stick-based sports where you watch the contact point of the "stick" and the ball, not where you are hitting it. Try putting while looking at the hole and not the back of the golf ball - it's weird at first but again shouldn't matter if your stroke is pure. I guess cause I was self taught and used a lot of spin (not advisable, but that's how I learned) it mattered more to me that I was hitting the cue ball where intended and had that as last visual feedback as opposed to looking at the OB - assumed if I was lined up, and hit the CB where intended, the OB would take care of itself. Don't think it's that important to shoot at a high level, if you're PSR and mechanics are solid and your aim/focus is pure the balls will still drop...
Scott
Randy,
For a shot of this power, 12" minimum follow through is required. Anything less and the cueball will not even move!
Seriously though, I think when people say things like this, they are inadvertently performing a logical operation (maybe lol). It might go like this:
--the correct follow through is the distance required for the stroke to naturally come to rest and "finish".
--a faster moving cue will have more momentum at impact and hence require more distance to naturally come to rest. (assuming there is nothing it its path, like a torso)
--If I hit the ball with lots of speed, I will have a long follow through (assuming I am an elbow dropper...)
--Thus power shots for elbow droppers often result in a longer follow through
Anyway, that is my hypothesis on what people mean (or *should* mean) when they say "that shot requires a lot of follow through". I think it goes back to the traditional sports idea that you swing "through" the ball.
KMRUNOUT
Sorry, but I have to challenge this 12 inch follow through stuff.
The cue ball leaves the cue tip in about 1/1000 of a second. Therefore, follow through, is a result of the stroke not the cause of the stroke.
Preparation is more important than longer follow through.
randyg
Sorry randyg, follow through is far critical, as well where accurate tip, follow through allows you to accelerate to max speed of stick just before it hits the CB so you gain the follow or speed needed (the CB would have gone by then) ; if you do not follow through, your brain would have issued the command to stop accelerating say six or 8 inches before tip hit CB and end up with less speed, or english (if applying english). Same as Golf swing, you got to follow through to deliver max speed of club, so when it contact the ball it is at max speed. Or basket ball follow through to generate ball spin to grap the basket ring, same as tennis to gain speed and spin.
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If you have some side on the ball along with follow, the distance away from center cue ball will affect the angle the cue ball comes off the rail. This makes my brain hurt, it seems like if you are close to the object ball you want to hit the cue ball higher so the spin will "take" prior to contact with the object ball.
Aside from that, I'm not sure what it matters as long as you can pocket the ball and get the cue ball where you want it to go. I mean, if I'm completely wrong about my assumptions but they work for me that's what matters.
This thread has gotten a little crazy lately but at least we are all talking about pool. I have to disagree that a long follow through is need to shoot / stroke well. The ball is gone after 1/1000 sec if you disagree then watch Mr. Allen Hopkins shoot some pool, the man can flat out play and he has a pretty short pokey looking stroke but he can get any sort of action on that cue ball.
Next I have really got alot out of this thread, I now totally except the fact I cannot overspin the cue ball this has been beneficial when I want that effect of "Force Follow" I now make sure my collision is thick and I hit a pure rolling high ball at a fast speed thus the ball is rolling with a high rotational energy. When the ball collides it gives up its linear inertia but very little of its rotational spin the spin is then spent converting rotational energy to linear motion. This thought is good for me I hope it is good for others.
Next a very key concept or thought raised by Bob Jewett is the concept of spin rate ratio : ball speed meaning what is the surface speed of the rotation to the linear speed of the ball. If you hit a perfect rolling ball this would be 1:1. If you hit a dead ball just below center you would have 0:1 if you hit it a little higher you might have 1:10 and then as the ball slides across the cloth it starts rolling it might be 1:5 and then if the table is long enough it will be 1:1 I bet alot of the time a ball or rail is hit first. A draw shot would have a negative ratio -1 : 3 or something like that as the draw dies you pass through the 0 ratio or dead ball 0:2.5 (cue ball slowed down) and then then it gets going forward 1:2 and then true rolling 1:1 at whatever speed.
A rotating/rolling ball exercise - Get some really clean balls on a table with clean newer cloth. Throw the balls down table one at a time out of your hand from one end of the table along the cloth straight into the far end rail watch that object ball as it comes into the cushion it is rolling then it hits the rail the balls roll is pinch braked by the rail and that ball will come out of that rail back uptable as a dead ball sliding on the cloth and then it will start rolling perhaps as far as a diamond from that rail if you throw it pretty quick. Do the same with dirty balls/cloth very little dead ball coming off that rail it starts rolling much faster. This means the rate a ball picks up rotation has something to do with the friction factor of the rolling/sliding ball to cloth. Dirty balls and cloth have more friction.
I would like to show you what a cue tip looks like at the cue ball at that theoretical .7 it is much higher than I thought. Here is are some pictures I used a bridge and the butt of the cue is actually on the end rail of the table. The bottom of this tip is at 1 5/8 inch which is 1.625 which is slightly higher than 2.25 * .7 which is 1.575 in a real situation the butt of the cue might be slightly higher which would bring the tip lower. These picts were taken with a 7" bridge length.
First the side view notice if you look where the tip touches the ball that is about 1 5/8 on the ruler. Second this is the view with the lens at 50mm which photographers say is similar to the human eye this is what a player sees if they are down low on the shaft when setting up to shoot. The third pict is at about 100mm of zoom which lets us see how high the top of that tip is to the cue ball that is about where you need to be to get a rolling cue ball most players will have the butt much higher perhaps 1" to 2" off the end rail (1/2" or more is required just for your knuckles). Well just thought we would look at where the cue needs to be to start the cue ball rolling. Sorry for the long post.
Next I have really got alot out of this thread, I now totally except the fact I cannot overspin the cue ball this has been beneficial when I want that effect of "Force Follow" I now make sure my collision is thick and I hit a pure rolling high ball at a fast speed thus the ball is rolling with a high rotational energy. When the ball collides it gives up its linear inertia but very little of its rotational spin the spin is then spent converting rotational energy to linear motion. This thought is good for me I hope it is good for others.
Next a very key concept or thought raised by Bob Jewett is the concept of spin rate ratio : ball speed meaning what is the surface speed of the rotation to the linear speed of the ball. If you hit a perfect rolling ball this would be 1:1. If you hit a dead ball just below center you would have 0:1 if you hit it a little higher you might have 1:10 and then as the ball slides across the cloth it starts rolling it might be 1:5 and then if the table is long enough it will be 1:1 I bet alot of the time a ball or rail is hit first. A draw shot would have a negative ratio -1 : 3 or something like that as the draw dies you pass through the 0 ratio or dead ball 0:2.5 (cue ball slowed down) and then then it gets going forward 1:2 and then true rolling 1:1 at whatever speed.
A rotating/rolling ball exercise - Get some really clean balls on a table with clean newer cloth. Throw the balls down table one at a time out of your hand from one end of the table along the cloth straight into the far end rail watch that object ball as it comes into the cushion it is rolling then it hits the rail the balls roll is pinch braked by the rail and that ball will come out of that rail back uptable as a dead ball sliding on the cloth and then it will start rolling perhaps as far as a diamond from that rail if you throw it pretty quick. Do the same with dirty balls/cloth very little dead ball coming off that rail it starts rolling much faster. This means the rate a ball picks up rotation has something to do with the friction factor of the rolling/sliding ball to cloth. Dirty balls and cloth have more friction.
I would like to show you what a cue tip looks like at the cue ball at that theoretical .7 it is much higher than I thought. Here is are some pictures I used a bridge and the butt of the cue is actually on the end rail of the table. The bottom of this tip is at 1 5/8 inch which is 1.625 which is slightly higher than 2.25 * .7 which is 1.575 in a real situation the butt of the cue might be slightly higher which would bring the tip lower. These picts were taken with a 7" bridge length.
First the side view notice if you look where the tip touches the ball that is about 1 5/8 on the ruler. Second this is the view with the lens at 50mm which photographers say is similar to the human eye this is what a player sees if they are down low on the shaft when setting up to shoot. The third pict is at about 100mm of zoom which lets us see how high the top of that tip is to the cue ball that is about where you need to be to get a rolling cue ball most players will have the butt much higher perhaps 1" to 2" off the end rail (1/2" or more is required just for your knuckles). Well just thought we would look at where the cue needs to be to start the cue ball rolling. Sorry for the long post.
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Wow...my sarcastic attempt at humor was totally lost in my post I guess. I threw in the
symbol, but I guess I was too subtle ha ha! Also, beginning my 2nd paragraph with the phrase "seriously, though" was intended to imply that the first paragraph was not at all serious.I don't know if *any* follow through is necessary for any shot. Except in so much as the tip probably must move forward *some* to impart action on the ball. I was just watching trick shots on ESPN and someone (Nick Nikolaidis or Stefano Pelinga) set up a shot where the cueball was about a 1/4" from the object ball, and he was able to draw back about 4 feet without fouling.
So to be clear, read my 2nd paragraph in my last post for my thoughts on follow through.
KMRUNOUT
Everyone keep saying the CB is gone after 1/1000 sec indeed, Follow through job ends after 1/10000 sec after tip contacts the CB. Follow through has two purposes 1- to gain cue shaft forward speed (1/2 MV2), and 2- to ensure desired spin-english is applied to CB. If you do not follow through in any shot (you forget, or scared cue will double kiss, or afraid to loose your fingers from hitting the table edge), your brain would have issued the command to stop accelerating say six or 8 inches before tip hit CB and end up with less speed, or poking and do not put the desired english (if applying english); note i said desired english. Same as Golf swing, you got to follow through to deliver max speed of club, so when it contact the ball it is at max speed. Or basket ball follow through to generate ball spin to grap the basket ring, same as tennis to gain speed and spin. To do a power draw you have to drop the elbow for much longer follow through to get mainly desired draw english, as far as speed here, or if it was follow it will be limited due to tip high or low, similarly for break shot to gain speed mainly, you would want the tip just a hair above center for max speed, and will cause the cue to stay at center of table, some say elevate cue slightly maybe ok, but if unintentionally elevate a bit more CB will fly off table.
Finally you must use stick weight to do the job with loose grip, otherwise your hands will be doing the job not very effective speed or english, some can argue this, my answer to them you have not gotten there yet.
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An elbow drop is not necessary to perform a power draw shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GsRIPSTWfo
Proper tip placement, tip speed, timing, and allowing the natural weight of the cue to do the work with a loose grip are more essential then a big follow through.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GsRIPSTWfo
Proper tip placement, tip speed, timing, and allowing the natural weight of the cue to do the work with a loose grip are more essential then a big follow through.
OK, Mike Masey said in the youtube you have to drop the elbow, but when he shot the shot he did not drop the elbow; Oyster did not drop elbow either
Again you are using terms like tip speed and timing; those are natural results to a pure natural follow through, tip speed is generated by max cue shaft velocity (1/2 mv2) speed not required in draw or follow shot spin is, and timing, what allow your brain to perform pause, and mussel motion of follow through. In a draw shot speed is not very critical it is the tip contact point and the extreem follow through that generate the spin required to bring you back. In fact, Buddy Hall, said, "if you shoot it hard you defeat the purpose" (now i know the purpose is generating spin)
The bridge location is critical of weather to drop elbow or not, for short bridge accurate tip contact, you must drop elbow to generate that spin, for long bridge you will have enough follow through to generate the spin without dropping elbow, and table cloth fast cloth draws much better than slow one, OB clean and shiny also allow CB to maintain spin longer for long shots
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Truthfully Neil, i appreciate your input, would love to know if i am wrong or right and i prove it to my self that it is either of the two. This is the only way to learn anything in life. Plus i will be the first to admit it, no harm done.
I have been on AZB for a year but been playing pool for almost 30 years, hold mech engineering degree, and registered engineer in state of VA, and have a pool table at home. My input to AZB is only to benefit everyone and not give falls information to anyone and get feed back to either i change my findings or prove my findings are good; playing pool is not easy, lots of variable that not many people has discovered or have the time to do so; therefore, have not gotten to that level yet, i am not claiming will not get there it is a matter of time.
Naji,
Keep plugging, bud! You have the attitude it takes to keep pushing the envelope. Whether you're right or wrong, you're still right for at least trying. There's a lot to be discovered yet in our sport and a lot to be rediscovered, too.
Although I don't necessarily agree with everybody in this forum, I respect their opinion. Despite the scoldings I've gotten, I still post info to debate or help someone. If you listen close enough sometimes, you pick up a different perspective to explore. I don't know it all and there's nobody else here that does either.
Looking forward to your next post.
Best,
Mike
Naji,
Keep plugging, bud! You have the attitude it takes to keep pushing the envelope. Whether you're right or wrong, you're still right for at least trying. There's a lot to be discovered yet in our sport and a lot to be rediscovered, too.
Although I don't necessarily agree with everybody in this forum, I respect their opinion. Despite the scoldings I've gotten, I still post info to debate or help someone. If you listen close enough sometimes, you pick up a different perspective to explore. I don't know it all and there's nobody else here that does either.
Looking forward to your next post.
Best,
Mike
Thanks Mike, love to hear that, it is great to hear the nice warm words that will only keep you energized and going. My next post answer to Neil post and findings about the shot you tube mentioned in 1st of thread that started all. Later
Neil thanks for the post here. I do not know what to say. follow through purpose in life is to get object to move in accelerated motion, like throwing a stone, it is impossible to have the stone go far if you did not have very long lever and follow throw. See 9 ball break youtube video, he really explain things nicely, even though he only taking speed for the break, but same apply for english. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW1tsONEI_U
The other thing, long follow through does not effect stroke by any means, in the contrary it improves it. Remember, if your bridge planted, your aim set, only thing will change the outcome is the tip hits CB at an unintended target, and if you are at cue pivot point or beyond i will be highly surprised to see you miss if you follow through & aim correct.
As far as the shot referenced in the first thread, the secret is how far the OB away from short rail, if it is too far, CB will go in an angle to rail that will kill all side spin, it will keep some high forward spin, but if you bring the OB close to the short rail the CB angle will deflect at 90 degree and hit the rail with almost close to 90 degree, if less than 90 degree CB will hit rail and english will take CB to left immediately, if larger than 90 degree by say 5 degrees, then forward and side spin will work immediately after it hits the rail (if OB too close action happens 1/2 diamond from rail depending on speed and english). Again fast speed and about 70% top and follow through action is required. Try it, and let me know. I will post my video finding in couple of days. Unless some one beat me to it. (i hope)