What effects do joints have on the way cues play?

Pre-Flag Master

Pre-Flag Master

Cue Ball Man
Silver Member
I know that different joints have different feels, but to what extent do they effect the actual play of the cue?

Specifically, if you do something with a cue's joint to partially isolate the vibration from the shaft, making the butt vibrate less does this effectively stiffen the shaft, or move the flex point more forward? For example if I took my wood to wood sneaky with no joint collars and had a cue maker add phenolic joint collars or some such. If this were true, I would imagine that different types of joints would have a more profound effect on this than others, true?

Thank you
Fatz
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I know that different joints have different feels, but to what extent do they effect the actual play of the cue?

Specifically, if you do something with a cue's joint to partially isolate the vibration from the shaft, making the butt vibrate less does this effectively stiffen the shaft, or move the flex point more forward? For example if I took my wood to wood sneaky with no joint collars and had a cue maker add phenolic joint collars or some such. If this were true, I would imagine that different types of joints would have a more profound effect on this than others, true?

Thank you
Fatz
Click to expand...

This topic has previously been beaten to death..... But I will say the thoughts range from "I only play with a "yadda yadda" joint becaus it's the best....... to .... it doesn't make any difference.

The same goes for joint screws.......


I personally think the joint material has an affect (metal is the worst) but the joint screw does not........... but that's just me.......

Kim
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I know that different joints have different feels, but to what extent do they effect the actual play of the cue?

Specifically, if you do something with a cue's joint to partially isolate the vibration from the shaft, making the butt vibrate less does this effectively stiffen the shaft, or move the flex point more forward? For example if I took my wood to wood sneaky with no joint collars and had a cue maker add phenolic joint collars or some such. If this were true, I would imagine that different types of joints would have a more profound effect on this than others, true?

Thank you
Fatz
Click to expand...



The tighter fitting the joint is the less vibration you will feel in both the butt and the shaft. This is why so much experimentation has occurred over the years, and this is why we have so many different pins and joint configurations to choose from.

If the truth is know most cue makers try and make their cues hit like there is no joint at all, similar to a good one piece house cue. Now I am not trying to tell you which is best, but I prefer a wood to wood joint with a big pin 3/8-10 with a Phenolic insert in the shaft. This configuration gives you a very snug joint that transmits the hit and power, again in my opinion only.

Take Care
 
I do know that certain joints, the ones that Canadians in BC are famous for making, definitely can make a huge difference in the way I play at times.

But this is a family channel so we can't go into much detail.
 
manwon said:
The tighter fitting the joint is the less vibration you will feel in both the butt and the shaft. This is why so much experimentation has occurred over the years, and this is why we have so many different pins and joint configurations to choose from.

If the truth is know most cue makers try and make their cues hit like there is no joint at all, similar to a good one piece house cue. Now I am not trying to tell you which is best, but I prefer a wood to wood joint with a big pin 3/8-10 with a Phenolic insert in the shaft. This configuration gives you a very snug joint that transmits the hit and power, again in my opinion only.

Take Care
Click to expand...

I make mine that way and I totally agree.........

Kim
 
Take 2

I'll ask this question from a different angle. Are there cue makers who make a joint with the goal of isolating vibration from the shaft to the butt (to whatever extent possible/feasible)?

If so, for what reason?

thanks
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I'll ask this question from a different angle. Are there cue makers who make a joint with the goal of isolating vibration from the shaft to the butt (to whatever extent possible/feasible)?

If so, for what reason?

thanks
Click to expand...


Like I said above vibration takes away from a cues ability to transmit power, how the cue sounds when it hits the cue ball, and the way hit feels to the person holding the cue.

The concept of making a two piece cue was to make a cue easier to transport from place or simply to carry. With that said, cue makers throughout history have strived to eliminate vibration especially caused by a loose jointing of the cue because it will have a major effect on the sound made and the hit imparted when the tip strikes a cue ball.

There is no way to stop all vibration in any cue, however, with that said there is vibration / sound that people look for in the hit of a cue and there is vibration / sound that people do not want in the hit of cue. If a cues joint has that sloppy rattle that sounds like something loose that alone will effect how people perceive the cues playability.

In the end to my knowledge most cue makers seem to build their cues so that the cue produced feels like it has no joint at all.
 
Pre-Flag Master said:
I'll ask this question from a different angle. Are there cue makers who make a joint with the goal of isolating vibration from the shaft to the butt (to whatever extent possible/feasible)?

If so, for what reason?

thanks
Click to expand...
Yes, somewhat.
I build my cues to have the vibration/flex in front the bridge hand and on the grip hand.
It's the Just F'ng Magic Taper. :wink:
DSC01052.jpg

I'm partial to hard bones/phenolic and big pins.
Vibration and resonance have to be there. Where they are more pronounced and almost absent is up to the maker.
Just my opinion. Might be quackery science but I'm convinced.
 
From my understanding of the mechanics, the type of joint shouldn't effect how the cue plays but can effect how the cue feels. The size of the joint can effect the geometry of the shaft, which would change how the cue plays, as well as feels.
 
Lexicologist71 said:
From my understanding of the mechanics, the type of joint shouldn't effect how the cue plays but can effect how the cue feels. The size of the joint can effect the geometry of the shaft, which would change how the cue plays, as well as feels.
Click to expand...

You are spot on. :thumbup:
 
Lexicologist71 said:
From my understanding of the mechanics, the type of joint shouldn't effect how the cue plays but can effect how the cue feels. The size of the joint can effect the geometry of the shaft, which would change how the cue plays, as well as feels.
Click to expand...


Paul the cues joint along with the cues shaft are flex points. If the cues joint isn't tight fitting it will flex at that point, as an example most wood to wood cues that do not have phenolic collars will over time chip at the joint. While the flex is unpredictable it certainly effects how a given cue will transmit power and of course how a cue will feel. Now with that said, metal jointed cues do have a harder hit than phenolic or wood to wood jointed cues, but from there it is all the preference of the player using the cue.

I have used many types of cues over the last thirty years, and I have built cues with most types of joints currently used. From this I have found that the most important thing with any joint used in construction of cues is the strength of the area jointed.

While I have no education in engineering, I also do have an aptitude for simple mechanics so while I understand what you are saying, we can agree to disagree.

Have a great day Paul.
 
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What we refer to as 'hit' IS vibration and how we manage it.
You can soften or stiffen the hit of a cue quite easily, 'hit' being what you feel in your grip-hand.
With regards to the joint, it can be designed to deliberately take some of the hit out of the cue.
Conversely, it can be designed to stiffen the hit.
Huebler had/has a nylon insert in some shafts. Unlike threads in a brass insert, the nylon threads will move.
By 'move', I mean that they are subject to tension & compression.
This creates a dampening effect to the vibrations. To what degree, who's counting?
This also means that the shaft is not as tightly secured to the handle as it would be with a brass insert.
Some vibration doesn't make it across the opposing joint faces thereby reducing the hit.
Just about every component of a cue can have a give or take effect on a cue's hit.

I personally prefer a tightly mated joint. I use the big pin into a phenolic insert.
Why the phenolic insert he asked inquisitively? Because like nylon, wood is subject to tension & compression.
I also prefer phenolic collars as opposed to SS or wood (no collar).
IMO, SS dulls the hit and while wood to wood is the holy grail, in this area it would
benefit from increased structural integrity, ergo the phenolic collar which has a closer feel to wood than SS.
Other than preferred feel/hit of the cue, I don't think that one joint PLAYS much differently than another.
I don't think there's any performance to be gained or lost there.

In the end, I want the purest hit that is humanly possible.
If I want to adjust it up or down from there, I can do that with my choice of woods.

KJ
 
manwon said:
Paul the cues joint along with the cues shaft are flex points. If the cues joint isn't tight fitting it will flex at that point, as an example most wood to wood cues that do not have phenolic collars will over time chip at the joint. While the flex is unpredictable it certainly effects how a given cue will transmit power and of course how a cue will feel. Now with that said, metal jointed cues do have a harder hit than phenolic or wood to wood jointed cues, but from there it is all the preference of the player using the cue.

I have used many types of cues over the last thirty years, and I have built cues with most types of joints currently used. From this I have found that the most important thing with any joint used in construction of cues is the strength of the area jointed.

While I have no education in engineering, I also do have an aptitude for simple mechanics so while I understand what you are saying, we can agree to disagree.

Have a great day Paul.
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Seeing how I've played with a Schuler cue forever, I haven't spent a lot of time with a cue that flexes much at the joint. A well designed joint should NOT flex much. But, I believe the OP addressed playing characteristics, not feel. They are different aspects. That is what I addressed in my post.
 
KJ Cues said:
In the end, I want the purest hit that is humanly possible.
If I want to adjust it up or down from there, I can do that with my choice of woods.

KJ
Click to expand...
I didn't read that.
:D
It's amazing how little consideration what's inside get often.
 
manwon said:
Like I said above vibration takes away from a cues ability to transmit power, how the cue sounds when it hits the cue ball, and the way hit feels to the person holding the cue.

The concept of making a two piece cue was to make a cue easier to transport from place or simply to carry. With that said, cue makers throughout history have strived to eliminate vibration especially caused by a loose jointing of the cue because it will have a major effect on the sound made and the hit imparted when the tip strikes a cue ball.

There is no way to stop all vibration in any cue, however, with that said there is vibration / sound that people look for in the hit of a cue and there is vibration / sound that people do not want in the hit of cue. If a cues joint has that sloppy rattle that sounds like something loose that alone will effect how people perceive the cues playability.

In the end to my knowledge most cue makers seem to build their cues so that the cue produced feels like it has no joint at all.
Click to expand...



I've said this in the past and I still stand by it. I may be much different than other cue-makers but if I thought that my cues hit like a house-cue I would quit building cues.

Dick
 
Take 3

When you strike a cue ball it will cause a vibration in the cue, even in a one piece house cue. This is a natural thing. In a good playing cue, the vibration is "right". I will call this favorable resonance. I understand that having a joint introduces complications and can result in UNWANTED vibration as opposed to a good cue's natural and favorable resonance.

What constitutes favorable resonance is a subjective matter and certainly must be something that many cue makers strive to control, as demonstrated by Joey's post. I would not say that the shaft is a flex point, but that a cue has flex points, and of those flex points, one or more would be ON the shaft. Again I'll acknowledge Joey's thinking. I think (just my opinion) the reason house cues play so well (with exceptions, of course) has more to do with the taper than the fact that they have no joint. The "pro" taper irks me to no end. A whippy shaft has a lower vibration frequency than a stiff shaft and to me this is a bad thing (again, just my opinion). How to tune a cues vibration? One way is in designing the cue's geometry (to quote Lexicologist71). This entails the shaft taper/joint diameter/butt taper.

Now here's the crux of the original question. Can you actually tune the cue's resonance with joint design? Are there cue makers who have joints designed to inhibit (notice I said "inhibit" not "prevent") vibration transmitting from the shaft to the butt - sort of like pressing a guitar string would "shorten" the string and cause a higher frequency vibration?

Unless I'm reading things wrong it sounds like everyone is trying to say that it doesn't work that way. But Joey does say "somewhat". And Joey, I am very interested in your work, as I think you know by now.

Also Dick, why do your cues not play like house cues? Generally I'm interested in your work as well, but specifically within the context of this thread, does it have something to do with how you do your joint? Thank you.

Fatz
 
Ahhh..........I just love it.

A forum full of cuemakers poo pooing stainless joints. Meanwhile "best playing cues" polls are being dominated by SS jointed cues.

By some of ya'lls writing I could deduce that a Honda Civic with a fart pipe should sound better than my Corvette with Borla exhaust. I mean the fart pipe does not dampen the harmonics as much as my Borlas right?
 
I have to agree with Dick here and I will take it one step further. The attributes that make a one piece cue play like they do has nothing to do with the absence of a joint.

rhncue said:
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I've said this in the past and I still stand by it. I may be much different than other cue-makers but if I thought that my cues hit like a house-cue I would quit building cues.

Dick
Click to expand...
 
Murray Tucker said:
Ahhh..........I just love it.

A forum full of cuemakers poo pooing stainless joints. Meanwhile "best playing cues" polls are being dominated by SS jointed cues.

By some of ya'lls writing I could deduce that a Honda Civic with a fart pipe should sound better than my Corvette with Borla exhaust. I mean the fart pipe does not dampen the harmonics as much as my Borlas right?
Click to expand...

So true, most of the best cues out there have steel joints, and play as good, or better than any big pin flat face.
 
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