spin transfered... a myth?

[Slh]

Many people don't believe spin can be transfered from the cueball to the OB.
This video proves it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B4f...DvjVQa1PpcFM9Mm0drsH2FTDaYFWofVYi_sdnmBD1ZmM=

if the spin is transfered, we should see the vertical lines of the 10 ball change direction, right?
Mike Sigel doesn't believe in spin transfering. I just watched the dr. dave's video and it looks like the spin is trasfering but why we can't see it on the 10 ball in the previous video? The spin trasfered is so small we can't even see it?

 

[WhatsTheSpot]

Of course spin transfers.

Just look at when 2 balls are frozen and you run the cueball into the first one. If you couldn't transfer spin, the 2nd ball would always travel straight in line.

But of course if you spin the cueball, the 2nd ball will be thrown one way or the other. Or if you cut the first ball you can throw the 2nd ball.

IT'S OBVIOUS IF YOU PAY ATTENTION. ALL THAT'S NEEDED IS TO PAY A BIT OF ATTENTION AND THERE IS NO DISCUSSION ABOUT IT.

HOW CAN ANYONE DENY SUCH SIMPLY THINGS. IT IS GOD DAMN OBVIOUS

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Either spin can be transferred or the physics that is the basis for sending telescopes into space, putting men on the moon, etc. is incorrect.

I don't care what a pro pool player 'believes' about physics.

dld

Good. You can back the physicist and I'll back Sigel.

 

[ShootingArts]

imperfect transfer

You don't get a lot of spin transfer but very commonly we use spin from side to reduce collision induced spin.

Unquestionable evidence of transferred spin, if the cue ball and object ball are very near each other, within a foot more or less, it is sometimes possible on very slightly angled bank shots to make the object ball come off the rail on the opposite angle than it should. This is very handy when a corner pocket is blocked or when playing one pocket. May need dirty or wet balls, while I have executed this shot many times I have failed many times too!

Hu

 

[sjm]

I've never heard a player suggest that spin cannot be transferred. Use of the principle is especially important in bank pool.

On the other hand, I have heard many a pool player suggest that, except when the object ball will go to a rail, the advantage that can be gained from spin transfer is negligible.

 

[DrGonzo]

Bank pool

Since the transfered spin has the greatest effect once the ball contacts a rail, just ask any number of the top bank pool players and they will tell you that, of course, the spin of the cue ball transfers to the object ball.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Many people don't believe spin can be transfered from the cueball to the OB.
This video proves it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B4f...DvjVQa1PpcFM9Mm0drsH2FTDaYFWofVYi_sdnmBD1ZmM=

if the spin is transfered, we should see the vertical lines of the 10 ball change direction, right?
Mike Sigel doesn't believe in spin transfering. I just watched the dr. dave's video and it looks like the spin is trasfering but why we can't see it on the 10 ball in the previous video? The spin trasfered is so small we can't even see it?

A common shot where transferred side is used is on banks with "twist". It is easy to demonstrate and is used all the time on banks in bank pool and one pocket.

It is traditional "wisdom" in the UK that side cannot be transferred. Sadly, the people in the UK who believe that are, well, how can I put this gently.... let's just say that they have some excellent learning opportunities ahead of them.

The person who made the above video failed to notice that on his first shot side was transferred to the object ball. The stripe was twisted as the 10 rolled to the pocket -- the ball did not roll like a tire.

One general point on the video: it is not possible to prove a negative. You cannot prove that it is not possible to transfer side. I think the only conclusion we can draw from the video is that the poster was incapable of correctly interpreting his own observations and does not understand the best way to demonstrate transferred side. Also, he does not understand the simple physics behind throw shots.

 

[Slh]

Of course spin transfers.

Just look at when 2 balls are frozen and you run the cueball into the first one. If you couldn't transfer spin, the 2nd ball would always travel straight in line.

But of course if you spin the cueball, the 2nd ball will be thrown one way or the other. Or if you cut the first ball you can throw the 2nd ball.

IT'S OBVIOUS IF YOU PAY ATTENTION. ALL THAT'S NEEDED IS TO PAY A BIT OF ATTENTION AND THERE IS NO DISCUSSION ABOUT IT.

HOW CAN ANYONE DENY SUCH SIMPLY THINGS. IT IS GOD DAMN OBVIOUS

when balls are frozen is a different situation because the friction between the two balls is much higher so the spin transfered is much more.

Since the transfered spin has the greatest effect once the ball contacts a rail, just ask any number of the top bank pool players and they will tell you that, of course, the spin of the cue ball transfers to the object ball.

sorry but this is not a really good example because the top bank pool players ( or pool players in general) believe more in their experience and pratice than in phisics ( usually). For example Allen Hopkins believes that during swerve shots ( or masse shots) he can give more spin by steering the cue immediately after contacting the cueball, this is obviously false because the tip of the cue is contact with the cueball for like 0,001 sec.

A common shot where transferred side is used is on banks with "twist". It is easy to demonstrate and is used all the time on banks in bank pool and one pocket.

It is traditional "wisdom" in the UK that side cannot be transferred. Sadly, the people in the UK who believe that are, well, how can I put this gently.... let's just say that they have some excellent learning opportunities ahead of them.

The person who made the above video failed to notice that on his first shot side was transferred to the object ball. The stripe was twisted as the 10 rolled to the pocket -- the ball did not roll like a tire.

One general point on the video: it is not possible to prove a negative. You cannot prove that it is not possible to transfer side. I think the only conclusion we can draw from the video is that the poster was incapable of correctly interpreting his own observations and does not understand the best way to demonstrate transferred side. Also, he does not understand the simple physics behind throw shots.

sorry but i can't see the vertical lines of the 10 ball changing directions.

 

[Cdryden]

I was teaching my friends son a few things about pool. He is 5 and he picked up on this right away. I wasn't teaching him about throw or anything like that. He asked me how the ball came back when I did a draw shot and it explained "spin" to him.
He said "So, when this ball is spinning and hits that ball, will make it spin the other way?"

He is a smart kid but not any more so than other kids I have observed his age. More importantly he has a fresh outlook and untainted view.

It's amazing what we can learn once we are able to accept that we might not know it all.

 

[cubc]

IT'S OBVIOUS IF YOU PAY ATTENTION. ALL THAT'S NEEDED IS TO PAY A BIT OF ATTENTION AND THERE IS NO DISCUSSION ABOUT IT.

HOW CAN ANYONE DENY SUCH SIMPLY THINGS. IT IS GOD DAMN OBVIOUS

Breathe man. Anyone that's been around pool players for any length of time should become numb to people that don't quite understand simple and obvious things.

Life isn't serious enough for caps lock or rage shifting

 

[Bob Jewett]

I've never heard a player suggest that spin cannot be transferred. Use of the principle is especially important in bank pool.

On the other hand, I have heard many a pool player suggest that, except when the object ball will go to a rail, the advantage that can be gained from spin transfer is negligible.

I agree with this for most US players, but it is a common belief in the UK that spin cannot be transferred. Mostly I think this comes from the most celebrated British pool author, Riso Levi, who consistently and sometimes obnoxiously maintained that side could not be transferred. That was in spite of no less a star than Walter Lindrum -- for history non-buffs, he was more dominant in his time than Greenleaf, Mosconi or Strickland -- saying that he routinely used transferred side.

I also agree that the effect is only useful on banks.

 

[Bob Jewett]

when balls are frozen is a different situation because the friction between the two balls is much higher so the spin transfered is much more.

I think that the effect is not significantly larger for frozen balls. Do you have a demonstration that shows this?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Good. You can back the physicist and I'll back Sigel.

Did Sigel actually say that you cannot transfer spin to the object ball? I doubt that he did, and I'm pretty sure that he knows about twisting banks, as he plays pretty good one pocket.

 

[The Renfro]

Sounds like we have the next TAR match... Sigel VS Brumback playing banks... John gets to transfer spin to the object balls but if Mike does it even accidentally it's a foul.... LOL

I think angle has a ton to do with how much english induced spin can be accomplished but for those angles where english won't transfer well we still get contact induced spin....

Lots of the banks on Freddy's DVD he shoots with contact induced spin... Many but not all can also be shot with english induce spin and actually have to be if the cueball position moves to a straighter angle........

 

[cubc]

I also agree that the effect is only useful on banks.

And combos? Long ago when Junior Harris explained combos to me he explained when the balls are close visualize gears spinning. if you put left english (turning it clockwise), itll spin the next left (counter clockwise), and the next right and so on and that can be particularly useful.

Thoughts ^?

 

[jason]

Americans put "English" on the ball and the English put "spin." That's the difference...case closed!

 

[Bob Jewett]

... sorry but i can't see the vertical lines of the 10 ball changing directions.

On the first shot he shoots, look at the stripe of the 10 ball. It starts out vertical. If the ball gets no side, it should remain vertical and the stripe should roll like a tire towards the pocket. It does not. Try the experiment for yourself. First try a shot without side spin on the cue ball to see if you can send the stripe away rolling straight. Then use side spin. Let us know how your own experiment comes out.

 

[Bob Jewett]

And combos? Long ago when Junior Harris explained combos to me he explained when the balls are close visualize gears spinning. if you put left english (turning it clockwise), itll spin the next left (counter clockwise), and the next right and so on and that can be particularly useful.

Thoughts ^?

I've only seen a very small effect on the second ball on combinations. It is much less than the usual amount of throw. In combinations, it's also hard to separate the spin from spin and the spin from cut.

 

[rayjay]

Breathe man. Anyone that's been around pool players for any length of time should become numb to people that don't quite understand simple and obvious things.

Life isn't serious enough for caps lock or rage shifting

green for that!

 

[bbb]

ok check out this video
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#spin
thanks dr dave
:thumbup: