If i were in the Philippines i'd be more disgusted by this ("Human trafficking and the prostitution of children is a significant issue in the Philippines, often controlled by organized crime syndicates. Human Trafficking in the Philippines is a crime against humanity.") than if ivory came from a dead or live elephant.
Ivory
- Thread starter Antfarm
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If i were in the Philippines i'd be more disgusted by this ("Human trafficking and the prostitution of children is a significant issue in the Philippines, often controlled by organized crime syndicates. Human Trafficking in the Philippines is a crime against humanity.") than if ivory came from a dead or live elephant.
The crazy part of these laws is that the cues you speak of far predated the regulations which were madein 1989. So the cues are destroyed because the government altered laws as the whims of society changed? Ever see the photos of the mountains of elephant tusks Brunswick used to make billiard balls? At the time people in the USA saw no issue with it. The amount of ivory used in pool cues would pale in comparison.
I was watching this show last night where these hippy white kids from the USA were going to stop some nordic people from conducting an annual whale hunt. The town got together and drowe pilot whales to shore and the kiled 200 or so at once. They used the meat to feed the town for the entire year.
It's none of our business how other nations choose to feed their children. People wonder why the rest of the world despises us.
Pangit
Banned
I fully agree, I can't tell you how many bar girls I've met that sacrifice their bodies so their younger siblings don't have to do it also.
The problem is the Catholic Church. Anywhere on the planet where the
Catholic religion has taken |"charge"...it ultimately turns out SNAFU..
Why is Birth Control such a bad thing??? Especially in poor uneducated countries? "Jesus" said so?
Another HUGE problem is Nepotism. It's rare for anyone to get "freely" elected to Political office In Zambales unless your last name is Gordan or Magsaysay.
Last name "trumps" everything. One "might" be at the extremity of mental problems. "Doesn't matter" U have the "right" last name.
IN most parts of the world animals with
monetary value are protected because
that value can be used to benefit the the
people directly associated with that animal.
There are always those people who will take
advantage and do things illegally to benefit
themselves alone. In this case poachers.
The anti-ivory folks are only going to recognize
and talk about the poaching side of the story.
They don't have any interest in the whole story.
Simply put, poaching is the problem, not the harvesting
of elephants.
This forum is not large enough for all of the really dumb
laws the US Fish and Wildlife have enacted for the sole
purpose of garnering votes for some politician from an
emotional and half informed populace.
The fact is, more animals suffer than benefit because of
US meddling in the management of other countries
wildlife. The road to hell.......
monetary value are protected because
that value can be used to benefit the the
people directly associated with that animal.
There are always those people who will take
advantage and do things illegally to benefit
themselves alone. In this case poachers.
The anti-ivory folks are only going to recognize
and talk about the poaching side of the story.
They don't have any interest in the whole story.
Simply put, poaching is the problem, not the harvesting
of elephants.
This forum is not large enough for all of the really dumb
laws the US Fish and Wildlife have enacted for the sole
purpose of garnering votes for some politician from an
emotional and half informed populace.
The fact is, more animals suffer than benefit because of
US meddling in the management of other countries
wildlife. The road to hell.......
the post just above by jodacus is very logical.
it appears that greg, the op, has received the answer (s) to his question so I hope he will not mind my veering off his specific topic a little.
a few posters have expressed their dismay over the inhumane ways that ivory is harvested and, to be perfectly clear, I am in no way an advocate of poaching or any other illegal or unkind means that may be employed.
With that said, I think we're living in a world of hypocrisy.
look down just below our belly buttons and there's a good chance there's a leather belt holding up our pants, or a little lower there's probably leather shoes oftentimes covering our feet.
it can become even more ridiculous if I ask if we ever drive a car because if you do, the windshield is mass murdering bugs.
just when you thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous, anyone ever had strep throat? You have some hell of a nerve if you poisoned to death the poor streptococcyl bacteria with penicillin. :shocked2:
exactly who is it that decides our morality when it comes to killing animals? and which living beings are more important than others, bugs, elephants, bacteria, etc...
at the end of the day I think we're all murderers.
carry on...
best,
brian kc
it appears that greg, the op, has received the answer (s) to his question so I hope he will not mind my veering off his specific topic a little.
a few posters have expressed their dismay over the inhumane ways that ivory is harvested and, to be perfectly clear, I am in no way an advocate of poaching or any other illegal or unkind means that may be employed.
With that said, I think we're living in a world of hypocrisy.
look down just below our belly buttons and there's a good chance there's a leather belt holding up our pants, or a little lower there's probably leather shoes oftentimes covering our feet.
it can become even more ridiculous if I ask if we ever drive a car because if you do, the windshield is mass murdering bugs.
just when you thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous, anyone ever had strep throat? You have some hell of a nerve if you poisoned to death the poor streptococcyl bacteria with penicillin. :shocked2:
exactly who is it that decides our morality when it comes to killing animals? and which living beings are more important than others, bugs, elephants, bacteria, etc...
at the end of the day I think we're all murderers.
carry on...
best,
brian kc
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I have been reading with great interest. I have four cues with ivory in them, one antique, three modern. It quite simply makes me uncomfortable to even say that.
Last fall I had a very enlightening conversation with mortuarymike about this matter. I appreciate his thoughts on it. I certainly learned a thing or two, like that I was wrong about a thing or two.
I hope the OP got their answer. As for the rest of it, some people are very passionate about the issue and there is more than one valid perspective. I do respect that. I also wish to respect the law.
I think the important thing is that regardless of one's perspective or position one should continue to learn about all aspects of the the issue. That's the best any of us can do.
.
Last fall I had a very enlightening conversation with mortuarymike about this matter. I appreciate his thoughts on it. I certainly learned a thing or two, like that I was wrong about a thing or two.
I hope the OP got their answer. As for the rest of it, some people are very passionate about the issue and there is more than one valid perspective. I do respect that. I also wish to respect the law.
I think the important thing is that regardless of one's perspective or position one should continue to learn about all aspects of the the issue. That's the best any of us can do.
.
That's the difference between a good poster and a bad one; the ability to admit you don't know everything, the willingness to learn, and the humility to admit when you're wrong. That's why some people just aren't worth replying to for the most part; they listen to no one but themselves.
doc
hi doc pretty touchy subject, and how have you been my friend .
Ivory threads
the only reason i ran the other thread on ivory is so people could educate themselfs on the pre band ivory law. The thread was meant to educate azer............................................................................................
I am a optomist i believe most things are possible.
as of the 1988 pre ban Ivory law read it for yourselfs, if you dont understand the law find someone that does understand it enough that they can explain the law to you. but ask some one who knows like a customs agent.
There are some buyers and sellers and world travelers in here that really dont know about the 1988 pre ban ivory act.
How can we protect each other if we dont know the facts.
Sincerely
MMike ps doc tell your wife and kids i said hi
hi doc pretty touchy subject, and how have you been my friend .
Ivory threads
the only reason i ran the other thread on ivory is so people could educate themselfs on the pre band ivory law. The thread was meant to educate azer............................................................................................
I am a optomist i believe most things are possible.
as of the 1988 pre ban Ivory law read it for yourselfs, if you dont understand the law find someone that does understand it enough that they can explain the law to you. but ask some one who knows like a customs agent.
There are some buyers and sellers and world travelers in here that really dont know about the 1988 pre ban ivory act.
How can we protect each other if we dont know the facts.
Sincerely
MMike ps doc tell your wife and kids i said hi
The leather comes from cattle which have already been slaughtered for food. So that isn't relevant unless you're saying we should all be vegetarians.
We could all stay home and never go to work, I guess.
We could all just die from infections, I guess.
Elephant ivory doesn't let anyone's pants fall down or make anyone go barefoot nor does it keep us from going to work or cause us to die of infection. In fact, even a pool cue works just fine without elephant ivory on it.
hi doc pretty touchy subject, and how have you been my friend .
Ivory threads
the only reason i ran the other thread on ivory is so people could educate themselfs on the pre band ivory law. The thread was meant to educate azer............................................................................................
I am a optomist i believe most things are possible.
as of the 1988 pre ban Ivory law read it for yourselfs, if you dont understand the law find someone that does understand it enough that they can explain the law to you. but ask some one who knows like a customs agent.
There are some buyers and sellers and world travelers in here that really dont know about the 1988 pre ban ivory act.
How can we protect each other if we dont know the facts.
Sincerely
MMike ps doc tell your wife and kids i said hi
Doing about the same if that tells you anything...thanks for asking.
The wife says "hi" right back at you. My daughter has been having her weekly guitar lessons and will take guitar in school next year.
As for ivory, understanding it isn't as straightforward as one might like. That's part of the problem.
There is a bit of truth in both extremes here.
Certainly one need not use leather when synthetics could be used. However those synthetics often aren't synthetics at all and are natural products derived from oil...in other words plastics. There goes another natural resource.
The woods that are used in cues, even if not protected species, are taxing the environment. In fact deforestation in general is a major problem that affects all of us.
Pool itself could be called a frivolous pursuit. It is even played in places where poverty is common though. If one wants to be very extreme then none of the resources used can be justified.
In the end it is merely where one draws a line in their view on the matter. Nobody here has taken a vow of poverty and we all consume valuable natural resources for our pleasure, luxury, and frivolity. We all do.
Taking the position that the other's viewpoint is indefensible and unjustifiable is hazardous as none of the consumption of resources in the pursuit of our love of pool is really justifiable.
I would suggest that we seek mutual understanding rather than conflict. I would bet there is more common ground that one might at first suspect and it would be found merely by looking for it rather than looking for the disputes. The benefit of course is strength in numbers. The more we can be of one mind about such things the more we will advance our causes.
you're right of course
Vegans and vegetarians are responsible for thousands of deaths of deer a year! The farmers growing all of the grain and vegetables have to keep the pests down to make a profit, pests up to and including deer! In my state they can't even use or donate the deer. They have to be left to rot. Better to be a hunter who harvests and uses a deer or someone that causes a deer to lay there and rot after being killed so they can eat?
An extreme illustration above of course but it does illustrate that few things are as clear as they seem. Legally taken elephants today are usually utilized down to the last scrap. That is enough meat to feed a small town! Too while elephants need to be protected some places in some places there are too many elephants, bad for us and bad for the elephants too. Logistics and politics prevent moving them so harvesting some is the most humane and practical solution. Disease and famine are nature's ways of controlling overpopulation, a well placed bullet is much kinder in my opinion!
Shades of gray and if we aren't careful we may be doing more harm than the people we look down on. In the end I understand I was created to be both a meat and plant eater. I assume the Good Lord knew what he was doing when he made us this way.
Hu
Vegans and vegetarians are responsible for thousands of deaths of deer a year! The farmers growing all of the grain and vegetables have to keep the pests down to make a profit, pests up to and including deer! In my state they can't even use or donate the deer. They have to be left to rot. Better to be a hunter who harvests and uses a deer or someone that causes a deer to lay there and rot after being killed so they can eat?
An extreme illustration above of course but it does illustrate that few things are as clear as they seem. Legally taken elephants today are usually utilized down to the last scrap. That is enough meat to feed a small town! Too while elephants need to be protected some places in some places there are too many elephants, bad for us and bad for the elephants too. Logistics and politics prevent moving them so harvesting some is the most humane and practical solution. Disease and famine are nature's ways of controlling overpopulation, a well placed bullet is much kinder in my opinion!
Shades of gray and if we aren't careful we may be doing more harm than the people we look down on. In the end I understand I was created to be both a meat and plant eater. I assume the Good Lord knew what he was doing when he made us this way.
Hu
Posting this is pointless but ignorance puts me on tilt...
If you are under the assumption that elephants are killed to make ivory and you will make a difference by not buying any cue with ivory in it then I highly suggest you stop driving a car, or using anything made with plastic including utensils, garbage bags, and computers.
Plastic is made from oil which comes from dead plant and animal remains. If we don't stop using plastic RIGHT NOW the dinosaurs and plants will all go extinct!
Think that's warped? Well, it makes as much sense as thinking green ivory is used in cues. Both the ingredients for plastic and ivory take more than a lifetime to become useful. Knowing this will fall on unlistening, unlearning, and deaf ears though I feel I've just wasted 3 minutes of my life.
If you are under the assumption that elephants are killed to make ivory and you will make a difference by not buying any cue with ivory in it then I highly suggest you stop driving a car, or using anything made with plastic including utensils, garbage bags, and computers.
Plastic is made from oil which comes from dead plant and animal remains. If we don't stop using plastic RIGHT NOW the dinosaurs and plants will all go extinct!
Think that's warped? Well, it makes as much sense as thinking green ivory is used in cues. Both the ingredients for plastic and ivory take more than a lifetime to become useful. Knowing this will fall on unlistening, unlearning, and deaf ears though I feel I've just wasted 3 minutes of my life.
You forgot to mention that if countries with elephant populations were allowed to sell ivory from harvested elephants and elephants that died from natural causes, they would be able to afford better protection and care for their elephant populations. As it stands, they do not have the necessary funds to care for and protect elephants properly.
didn't want to get to wide ranging
Rich,
I didn't want to get too wide ranging but is there anything stupider than burning huge warehouses full of ivory that either was harvested legally, came from animals that died naturally, or was confiscated from poachers and is now in the possession of legal authorities? Much like alcohol prohibition in the US and we know how well that worked. The more rare and valuable we make something the more temptation for the criminal elements. We should be able to chip legal ivory or something similar and put the legal ivory on the market to lessen the value of illegal ivory.
One thing the folks screaming about illegal ivory don't realize, almost all of the illegal ivory goes to the far east, we have almost no impact on illegal ivory. One set of legal tusks would last most cue makes a lifetime. Matter of fact I just gave away about half of my tiny supply of ivory, had more than I felt I would ever need.
Hu
Rich,
I didn't want to get too wide ranging but is there anything stupider than burning huge warehouses full of ivory that either was harvested legally, came from animals that died naturally, or was confiscated from poachers and is now in the possession of legal authorities? Much like alcohol prohibition in the US and we know how well that worked. The more rare and valuable we make something the more temptation for the criminal elements. We should be able to chip legal ivory or something similar and put the legal ivory on the market to lessen the value of illegal ivory.
One thing the folks screaming about illegal ivory don't realize, almost all of the illegal ivory goes to the far east, we have almost no impact on illegal ivory. One set of legal tusks would last most cue makes a lifetime. Matter of fact I just gave away about half of my tiny supply of ivory, had more than I felt I would ever need.
Hu
Probably so because it's no explanation for why poachers are killing elephants for nothing more than their tusks which, since they are on a not yet dead elephant, are probably pretty 'green'.
And if nobody in the world wanted ivory for anything at all then nobody would kill elephants right?
Plenty of people who'd still shoot them just to say they killed one.
I was told your OK if it is pre-banned ivory. Don't ask me how they can tell.
This is just more U.S. Political BullSh*t if you ask me. Just like whats going on with fishing. To many rules and regs. I know there is no problem getting Ivory. Not all of the Ivory is elephant Ivory. I may be wrong but I was under the impression that only elephant Ivory was illegal to sale in less it was pre-banned. I am sure someone on AZ knows more on this subject. All I know is if someone was going to confiscate my cue they better be prepared to have a good *ss whipping