Where does "taper roll " end and warp starts??

B

bbb

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if a shaft by itself apart and/or together with butt
shows undulation of space between the shaft edge and the table
when rolled and
the tip doesnt wobble up and down
how much of that is acceptable??as a general question
i beleve thats what people mean by "taper roll" correct me if that assumption is wrong

at what limit of space between the shaft and table when rolled does "warp " begin to define whats happening???

or does the tip have to "wobble?? for the shaft to be "warped"??

thanks for the replies
 
Taper roll

Warp is warp no matter how you look at it. I will admit it can be hard to get a perfectly straight shaft every time you turn them and wood does move occasionally due to atmospheric reasons. The words taper roll seem to have been coined to lessen the impact of the word "warp" and sell a cue. The buyer must decide what he/she will accept. The question I will raise is just how reproducible is your stroke??? Some people use credit card thickness to measure the warp(oops taper roll). Sometimes turning tapers that are oval in cross section will also produce an irregularity in shaft rolling.

If your stroke is flawlessly perfect, you may want a straight shaft because you have worked for many years to perfect it. If you are at a lower skill level you may accept a little warp(oops again, roll) and use the money you save on a lower level cue to pay for more pool practice time. Some people play for decades with a warped cue with a dot or mark that shows where it is, so they can orient it pointing up or down all the time.

It seems to me that working on a TRUE stroke should come first. Practice practice practice!!!! You will have plenty of time in your life to worry about slight warp/taper rolls then.

Don't blame your equipment, it only does what you tell it to do.

Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
Pancaking

Hi,

Very in depth subject there you have touched on.

One thing that lay persons may notice is an air gap change under the shaft when rolled. It can be several things.

One thing is that the shaft can be sanded too much. Because the wood grain is harder (on end grain) and more resistant to sanding on that radial area up and down the shaft. This condition is what can be described as pancaking. The axial x plane thru the centerline of the shaft is correct but the OD has been skewed, hence a variance on the table in the center but the tip rolls cool.

To avoid pancaking the CM must develop a machining method whereby the contour of his taper has a burnished or very smooth RMS finish when it comes off his machine so he has very little sanding after the fact. Less sanding more fun.

I have done shaft tapering on 4 different machines and when I got my table saw taper machines I never saw pancaking again because of very slow lathe speed and the number of carbide teeth and the rpm. Some shaft wood has a higher propensity to pancake but that is a whole other topic.

And don't forget the cue seller's ultimate cop out justification. The pool table is warped. I was at a show and actually heard someone say that.:shocked:

There are other reasons for a shaft taper role concerning aspects of machining a cue like concentricity, facing and turning a shaft into a butt that can be a root causation but I will leave it for others to explain.

Rick G
 
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DoubleD said:
For argument's sake, let's say that pancaking exists in a large enough form to actually notice a change of light under a cue.

If the cue is pancaked, it would have basically four extreme radius points located 90deg +/- to each other. Thus, you would see a varying amount of light when rolled with two points where there was the most light.

I've never seen a cue that had that. Every cue I have seen had two extremes--one high, one low.

Also, if it is because of sanding and the way the grain grows, it would make sense that a well made cue would have absolutely no noticeable roll as the shaft needs to be sanded from ferrule to joint.

Finally, if these shafts all pancake and the plastic/ivory/metal joint collars don't, why aren't there mis-matches between the wood and joint? Or do you fit every ring by hand to match it to the pancaked shaft?

I think it is sad that people have adopted the term to claim a that an obviously warped cue is straight.

Of course, I think that the myth of the necessity of a straight shaft is the biggest lie in our game.

dld
Click to expand...

Hi,

2 not four.

Pancaking does exist not with all shafts but with shafts that need too much sanding because the RMS finish is so bad, aggressive sanding must occur! If you have the right equipment and a control process it never happens because you don't have to sand aggressively.

If you have to sand too aggressively it can happen and is only one reason for taper roll as I stated. X axis concentric between centers ( not warped ), OD contour that is oval shaped a some point(s) on the cone. Some shaft wood is more susceptible to this but that is a different subject.

Any cue or shaft that does not roll straight when joined or by itself should be a rejected, every time and not leave a shop. No excuses!

If you have not built any shafts you should not argue for argument sake.

If you build some shafts and get practical experience you will find that shit can happen with wood IMHO. You must be on your game when selecting your collated planks, measuring density, reading the grain orientation, hogging the initial taper in 4 passes, then taking 12 or 13 passes in wood seasoned a minimum of 5 years IMHO. All along the way you must look for the bad cookies that should be culled from the herd.

You statements in red below: I have no idea what you are getting at or what you are trying to say at all.

Also, if it is because of sanding and the way the grain grows, it would make sense that a well made cue would have absolutely no noticeable roll as the shaft needs to be sanded from ferrule to joint.

Finally, if these shafts all pancake and the plastic/ivory/metal joint collars don't, why aren't there mis-matches between the wood and joint? Or do you fit every ring by hand to match it to the pancaked shaft?

I think it is sad that people have adopted the term to claim a that an obviously warped cue is straight.

Of course, I think that the myth of the necessity of a straight shaft is the biggest lie in our game.


If you buy cue from a CM who knows his craft the shafts should be straight, no myth, just plane geometry.

Rick
 
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bbb said:
if a shaft by itself apart and/or together with butt
shows undulation of space between the shaft edge and the table
when rolled and
the tip doesnt wobble up and down
how much of that is acceptable??as a general question
i beleve thats what people mean by "taper roll" correct me if that assumption is wrong

at what limit of space between the shaft and table when rolled does "warp " begin to define whats happening???

or does the tip have to "wobble?? for the shaft to be "warped"??

thanks for the replies
Click to expand...



When you spin it on a lathe between centers to see if there really is a problem.

Never roll a cue or a shaft on a table if want accurate information concerning whether it is straight or not!!!!
 
DoubleD said:
Review my original reply. There will be four extremes. Two where the shaft is thin (most light under the cue), two where the shaft is fat (least light under the cue). Kind of like if you spun a football.

I'm not sure if I can rewrite the things you quoted in red in any clearer english. Maybe that is my fault.

I have built shafts. I built a few dozen. I made them with traditional wood turning equipment. I never saw any that had pancaked noticeable enough that it could be seen or felt. I'm sure it could be measured using quality instruments.

Don't get me wrong, I like your definition, but without actual caliper measurements showing me a significant amount of 'pancaking', the cue is warped.

dld
Click to expand...

Your absolutely right, I have never seen this pancaking on a shaft and I made it up just to confuse you and argue.:ignore:
 
Here's my take on it...

Lets say I have bought a cue and I get it and it rolls perfectly straight to the naked eye. I play with the cue for a while and then it starts to not roll straight months later and I decide to sell it. Would I say it has a taper roll even though it has not been retapered? I think if it is warped it is warped, although some are not extreme enough to care about. For me if I were a buyer I look at each situation independently.

As far as pancaking goes, it's easy to pancake a piece on a lathe by sanding that isn't straight between centers. Has happened to me on other things besides cues.
 
I first heard the term Taper Roll used in the 70's when buying a custom cue. At that time very few joints were put in perfectly concentric. So the shaft had to be matched to the butt. When cutting that back few inches to match the butt that part of the shaft would no longer be perfect to the rest of the shaft even though the shaft was perfectly straight before installing the joint and matching it to the butt. This is what true taper roll is as far as I know. The shaft could be straight, but the back end would be off center at the joint which causes the shaft to appear warped when rolling on the table.
With a shaft with taper roll in it, you can set two boards up on a table about 20" apart and roll the front end of the shaft and see that the front was straight. Taper roll would probably not affect the play of the cue, but it gave retailers fits with people saying the shafts were warped. Now most cuemakers are getting their joints in much closer than before so taper roll is not much of an issue on modern cues.

So to define Taper Roll here is a simple definition: It is a mis-match between original shaft taper and joint taper. Or Joint taper is not concentric with shaft taper.

On the other hand warp is a bow in the shaft. I cannot answer the question of how much warp is acceptable. If a shaft moves just .010" it will cause the warp to look like .020" when rolled on the table. So finding perfectly straight shafts is very rare and even rarer when the shafts have any age on them. Would .010" of actual warp affect the play of the shaft? I doubt it. But some players will allow it to mess with them mentally if they knew it is there.
 
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cueman said:
So to define Taper Roll here is a simple definition: It is a mis-match between original shaft taper and joint taper. Or Joint taper is not concentric with shaft taper.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty solid & sound definition. A lot has been written & discussed about taper roll. A quick search would likely reveal all anybody would care to read. But the joint taper not being concentric to the shaft taper is IMO, the most obvious & common taper roll. Completely different than a warp.
 
Taper Roll

This might have been covered, as I didn't read all posts entirely. Most shafts are made taking small passes over time. If on the final pass, there is any run out for some reason (laziness, spur driver wasn't zeroed out, etc.), the cutting bit may only but cutting one side of the shaft. The shaft would be mildly egg shaped. When you roll it on the table the light would show a wobble or taper roll. The shaft may be gun barrel straight, as in no bow or warp, but because it is egg shaped it will appear to wobble. I had this happen a few times in the early days or at least I think this is what happened. Needless to say I doubt anyone could detect this type of imperfection while shooting
 
manwon said:
When you spin it on a lathe between centers to see if there really is a problem.

Never roll a cue or a shaft on a table if want accurate information concerning whether it is straight or not!!!!
Click to expand...

Thank you.

IMHO - with some practice, you can determine close enough by
sighting down the shaft as if it were a rifle while slowly rotating it
with your fingers.

Dale
 
taper roll starts with the seller and ends with the buyer. Seriously unless the shaft is badly warped, your game will not be affected. Very few shafts stay straight forever. I have a Schon shaft that is 25 years old and still very straight. I also have some fairly new customs that the shaft is barely starting to wobble somewhat. Its a head game between buyer and seller. A negotiating factor to buy a cue at a lesser price. Wood moves and sometimes changes weekly, monthly. Give a "A" player a nice hitting cue with a slighly warped shaft and watch what he can do. It aint the arrow. it IS the indian. It would be nice if a shaft remained perfect and true for the life of the cue, but it dosent always work out that way. IMHO
 
manwon said:
When you spin it on a lathe between centers to see if there really is a problem.

Never roll a cue or a shaft on a table if want accurate information concerning whether it is straight or not!!!!
Click to expand...

I can roll a cue on a table and find out anything i need to know about it's relative condition concerning warps or joint issues. A pool table is flat enough to use as a constant against which to to observe out of round/concentric motions of an object rolling across its surface. I.E. a pool cue. It is no different for a shaft to Roll or spin as long as there is a steady UN-moving point from which to measure its variances.
 
cueman said:
I first heard the term Taper Roll used in the 70's when buying a custom cue. At that time very few joints were put in perfectly concentric. So the shaft had to be matched to the butt. When cutting that back few inches to match the butt that part of the shaft would no longer be perfect to the rest of the shaft even though the shaft was perfectly straight before installing the joint and matching it to the butt. This is what true taper roll is as far as I know. The shaft could be straight, but the back end would be off center at the joint which causes the shaft to appear warped when rolling on the table.
With a shaft with taper roll in it, you can set two boards up on a table about 20" apart and roll the front end of the shaft and see that the front was straight. Taper roll would probably not affect the play of the cue, but it gave retailers fits with people saying the shafts were warped. Now most cuemakers are getting their joints in much closer than before so taper roll is not much of an issue on modern cues.

So to define Taper Roll here is a simple definition: It is a mis-match between original shaft taper and joint taper. Or Joint taper is not concentric with shaft taper.

On the other hand warp is a bow in the shaft. I cannot answer the question of how much warp is acceptable. If a shaft moves just .010" it will cause the warp to look like .020" when rolled on the table. So finding perfectly straight shafts is very rare and even rarer when the shafts have any age on them. Would .010" of actual warp affect the play of the shaft? I doubt it. But some players will allow it to mess with them mentally if they knew it is there.
Click to expand...


Finally .... an explanation that makes sense and one that I can believe. We have beaten this term to death.

I know what Chris is talking about because one of my first cues actually did this a little bit and I had a hard time figuring it out. It was the loss of concentricity in the shaft joint.

If concentricity is good, you won't have taper roll. Sanding until the shaft is oval will also give you a similar effect when you roll it but careful examination and measurement can prove which problem you have.

Kim
 
i appreciate all the replies
thanks guys
:thumbup:
the concentricity helps explain the roll together
and the oval or panckaking when apart
yes??
 
bbb said:
i appreciate all the replies
thanks guys
:thumbup:
the concentricity helps explain the roll together
and the oval or panckaking when apart
yes??
Click to expand...

No. The shaft taper roll will be there when together or apart. It will make no difference. It will always be there.
 
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