Is it possible to throw an object ball? Nope

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, static friction (frozen balls) is stronger than kinetic friction (moving balls), so frozen balls throw more, but that doesn't mean moving balls don't throw - the difference is only fractional. It may also be that the force of the collision adds enough friction to make up the difference (I'm not sure about this).
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Actually, a stunned non-frozen ball can throw as much as a frozen ball as long as the CB and OB gear together during contact.

See Diagram 1 in my Sept '06 BD article dealing with cut-induced throw (CIT). For cut angles less than about 35 degrees, a slow, stunned, non-frozen ball will throw the same amount as a frozen ball. And below about 20 degrees, speed has no effect!

See Diagram 1 in my Dec '06 BD article dealing with spin-induced throw (SIT). For English amounts less than about 50%, a slow, direct hit, non-frozen, stun shot will throw as much as a frozen ball. And below about 25% English, speed has no effect!

Regards,
Dave
 
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Friction

Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, static friction (frozen balls) is stronger than kinetic friction (moving balls), so frozen balls throw more, but that doesn't mean moving balls don't throw - the difference is only fractional. It may also be that the force of the collision adds enough friction to make up the difference (I'm not sure about this).

pj
chgo
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You are right, static friction is always greater than kinetic friction. The reason why can be understood in various ways, and here is one. Try stopping your car by braking very, very softly until the car comes to a complete stop without feeling a jerk at the moment of the complete stop. There is always a little jerk because that is when static friction occurs which is greater than the kinetic that the brakes applied. And if you saw the graph there is quite a difference in many cases, but I believe that this difference is balanced on an angled pool shot because you are mashing two materials together. In the braking car example, the force of gravity holds the two frictional materials together. In the angled shot example the two balls are mashed together by a third ball that carries its extra mass into the picture. Regardless, we are still continuing a misunderstanding between teacher and student.... apparently Vitello meant to tell the student that you can't transfer spin to an object ball that will then curve it around a third ball. The student apparently thought Vitello was telling him that balls will not drag each other from their original paths (throw.) Am I right about the misunderstanding Mr. Vitello?
 
I have seen a vid of somebody masseing an object ball over 2 inches just 2 feet from the pocket, also frozen balls can be thrown a diamond in about 4 foot. Jeff
 
jay helfert said:
Patrick, I thought everyone knew the difference between regular "throw" and the much more sophisticated "thurrow". Only players with advanced skill and knowledge can accomplish "thurrow". I will bet one million dollars I can do it better than anyone else! I am so good that sometimes I even scare myself. :grin:
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Thurrow, is increased with a rear grip on the butt. See JH fundamentals.
 
Wow, nice thread. I read about half of it, and watched Dr. Daves clip from the video encyclopedia he posted.

I really need to work on these shots. I've spun balls my whole pool playing career, rarely ever playing center ball. Recently I've been trying to learn center ball (yes, I know that's backwards), and have been having the hardest time pocketing the OB on simple cuts. I will have to experiment with throw at a stop shot stroke and see how much it is affecting these shots for me.

Question:

For position play, does the CB come off at 90 degrees to the line of centers at impact, or at 90 degrees to the path of the thrown OB, or some in-between angle?
 
iusedtoberich said:
Question:

For position play, does the CB come off at 90 degrees to the line of centers at impact, or at 90 degrees to the path of the thrown OB, or some in-between angle?
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I would post this in a separate thread, you are probably just asking an innocent question but this is a bit of a faux-pas to most here.
 
PGHteacher said:
I would post this in a separate thread, you are probably just asking an innocent question but this is a bit of a faux-pas to most here.
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I don't understand why it would be taken that way. All the science guys are in this thread, and I imagine they would have the best answer. I know in practical terms, its only a couple of degrees difference (if there is a difference), and probably wouldn't affect position play. Its more of a curiousity question from me from a science perspective.
 
TheThaiger said:
It is? :confused:

I'd also like to know the path a spinning CB takes after making contact with the OB (if that was his question).
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That wasn't my question, (but I like it also...).

My question, more explicitly stated is this:

1. For a stop shot stroke with no spin on the CB, cutting a ball at maximum CIT angle, will the CB depart the OB at 90 degrees to the original line of centers of the two balls, or at 90 degrees to the thrown path of the OB, or possibly some intermediate angle?
 
iusedtoberich said:
... does the CB come off at 90 degrees to the line of centers at impact, or at 90 degrees to the path of the thrown OB, or some in-between angle?
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The CB actually comes off a little less than 90 degrees from the line of centers. See Diagram 1 in the following article:

The total angle relative to the OB direction depends on the type and amount of English. See Diagram 1 in the following article:

Regards,
Dave
 
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I'm not going to read every response in this thread.

I will just add my .02

If a spinning sphere contacts another sphere it can make it move to the direction of spin. It will be seen more on very thin cuts.

Example: If you replaced a blade on a table saw with one that had no teeth. Then you turn on the table saw and drop a piece of wood on this super dull but spinning blade. Which way does the wood go after contact?

Sure, that is an extreme example, but on a smaller scale it shows what happens when a spinning cue ball comes into contact with an object ball.
 
jsp said:
Here's an experiment to test this claim.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=135285

(See, I can take it to the table and perform an actual controlled experiment to prove/disprove the validity of a claim...if I felt there really was a need. :thumbup:)
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I agree I'm a tech. idiot, so I could not watch your example, But I know from MY experience that it, throw, can make certain shots that are not 'makable' in an otherwise straight foward manner. Speed is also an important factor as to the success of the shot. I think many who try to say that certain things are myths don't fully understand how speed or lack there of effects these strategies. When more than on force is involved, which one becomes the dominant force is often what results in a make or a miss. If you don't understand the forces involved you can not regulate them accordingly. For instance spin force vs. momentum 'push' force for one example.The more appropriate question may have been. Can spin throw a ball at all speeds? There is much physics involved in pocket billiards & I for one don't have the time when shooting to postulate formulas for every shot. I just know what works & shoot the shot. I don't blame someone else if they 'mis-informed' me of the actual physics. I just care that I learned to make the shot.
 
Too lazy to read the whole page, but here's the easiest proof I know of:

OB on the spot, second OB frozen (or near frozen) directly behind it.

Cut the 2nd object ball into the nearest corner (don't hit the other ball). Even with tons of sidespin, you can't quite throw it in. But add a little chalk to the contact point on the object ball, then use tons of sidespin. It increases the throw enough to sink the ball.

So three different results: No sidespin, the ball's gonna miss by a lot. Plenty of sidespin, it's gonna come close but no cigar. Plenty of sidespin + chalk assistance = it's in the hole.
 
I don't know about anyone else but...

I have certainly seen more than one object ball thrown. Once clear across the bar, from one side to the other!

As far as this thread is concerned that is about the only aspect I am qualified to comment on. Have fun guys...
 
Inside english has very little throw power,Outside english has definitly got throw power, Thick angles english has more throw effect, Thin angles little throw effect. I learned this from a guy named Ray Martin and he has played a little pool in his time.
 
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