Draw by bending your shaft

zpele said:
So just recently I started bending my shaft against the table when applying force english. I have found that it helps add more spin to the cueball and can help to break apart clusters while still spinning straight through them without changing the original course of the cueball that much.

Is this type of technique generally well accepted or well used? I find it harder to control the speed of the draw using this technique and I wanted to know how badly this will damage my shaft over time.
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With a power draw shot, using a near-level cue and a pendulum stroke (i.e., no elbow drop), it is natural for the tip to be driven into the cloth; and if you are using a closed bridge, the cue will tend to bend (more with more follow through). There is nothing wrong with this, but it certainly isn't required or recommended. For more info, see:

Now, if you are purposely elevating the cue some to purposely drive the tip into the table and bend the cue more than normal, this is not a good approach, for many reasons. For more info, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
CreeDo said:
... when you say "off the rail" do you mean the cue ball is like a foot from the rail, and you just make your bridge on the rail? Or do you mean the cue ball is stuck to the rail?

It actually doesn't matter... if you're in a situation where you can't level out your cue, you're striking downward, so your tip might hit the table when you follow through. But that's more like an unfortunate side effect, not something you actually want to try for.
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Good summary. Although, there are cases where cue elevation does help draw shots. When there is a cut angle, the elevation causes the cue ball draw back more quickly (over a shorter distance). For more info, including video demonstrations, see:

Regards,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Good summary. Although, there are cases where cue elevation does help draw shots. When there is a cut angle, the elevation causes the cue ball draw back more quickly (over a shorter distance). For more info, including video demonstrations, see:

Regards,
Dave
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Hmmm that quick draw is the pronounced action I was getting using this. It seemed to spin through clusters using this as there seemed to be more spin on the ball sooner.

It almost seems like it hits the cluster and keeps spinning in place until the balls get out of the way then it keeps on going. I understand this can't happen and the path the cueball is traveling changes but that was the easiest way I could think of to explain it.

I also understand you can get this effect with regular level cue draw but I think what I was doing when playing around with this was closed bridge elevated cue draw. Because of the elevation the cue hits the cloth and bends when it continues through the follow through. Because I was using this technique with an elevated cue and a power draw type of shot the after effect is for the cue to bend.

I know I probably won't be using this at the table much in a real match but it is good to have that quick draw shot in the arsenal.


Anyway, this all came up because of that Mike Masse power draw shot and I tried to copy his technique to see if I could get even more draw. Apparently it inadvertently made me do a quick draw shot but didn't add too much to the distance the cueball travels.
 
zpele said:
... this all came up because of that Mike Masse power draw shot and I tried to copy his technique to see if I could get even more draw.
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In In Mike Massey's power draw video, the cue is elevated some to make sure his grip hand clears the rail; otherwise, be would bust his hand up. His cue would normally be a little more level on power draw shots (if the grip hand were a safe distance from the rail).

What makes Mike's draw so powerful is his ability to hit the CB low and accurately while generating lots of cue speed with tremendous acceleration during the forward stroke into the ball. As others have pointed out, the shaft bend is a "red herring" and should not be your focus; although, a healthy follow through is a symptom of a well executed power stroke.

zpele said:
Apparently it inadvertently made me do a quick draw shot but didn't add too much to the distance the cueball travels.
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I'm glad my quick draw page helped you figure things out.

Regards,
Dave
 
zpele said:
Hmmm that quick draw is the pronounced action I was getting using this. It seemed to spin through clusters using this as there seemed to be more spin on the ball sooner.
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The idea of "quick draw" is to get as much backspin as possible with as little forward speed as possible. Minimizing forward speed minimizes the distance the cue ball caroms sideways along the tangent line before curving back with the backspin, thus creating a steeper draw angle. This is usually accomplished by hitting as low as possible and as slow as possible (just fast enough to get the CB the needed distance) - so the amount of backspin is also usually lower than a typical draw shot where you're going for distance or clusterbusting power.

You can also get a steeper draw angle by jacking up, which reduces forward speed while allowing a faster stroke and more backspin.

pj
chgo
 
desi2960 said:
If he's just laying the shaft on the table with slight pressure, it wont effect it , but if he applies enough pressure it effects the woods structure,and eventually will cause the shaft to have a taper roll ..



you do not know " taper roll "

now to the poster of this thread, if you are digging the shaft into the cloth on your draw stroke, QUIT that is not the correct way to draw the ball. stop this as it will destory the cloth. hire an instructor to show you how to stroke the ball.
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I know more than you do apparently in regards to what causes shafts to warp, aka gain a "taper roll"..

Keep in mind, the term "taper roll" is used loosely ...

I do realize taper rolls true definition is wood that is not completely round ,be it butt or shaft, , this doesn't necessarily mean the wood isn't straight.. Now in days this term is commonly used as a substitute for the word warpage ..

Think before you quote me.. :wink:


Black-Balled said:
An ironic use of common sense!

It is wood, not metal.
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Wood can be broken down when put under strain, plain and simple, aka common sense.. :thumbup2:
 
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To answer the question of OP..

As it was stated prior, bending your shaft will not increase the amount of english you get ..
 
CueRepairGuy said:
You can and probably will warp your shaft eventually.. I have even seen them break doing this.
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I turned a Meucci original butt to sawdust and splinters behind the joint by flexing the shaft into the cloth. It broke real easy.
 
skillezlite

your knowledge of pool cue definitions, boggles the mind, as you are once again wrong about the definition of taper roll.
i would also suggest you not get into a battle of wit's with me as you seem to to be only 1/2 prepared.
 
SKILLZELITE said:
I know more than you do apparently ...
Wood can be broken down when put under strain, plain and simple, aka common sense.. :thumbup2:
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I guess we would need to define what a 'bend' is. Even a wet piece of pasta can be broken, given enough 'bend'.

I say, unless the bending is significant deviation from straight, there will be unmeasurable changes to the resting structure during regular use.

Certainly, if you go nutty on the blitch, you might find yourself holding firewood.
 
as described in the cue makers section

07-17-2012, 04:14 AM

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Taper roll is not a warp. You can prove it many different ways. The easiest way is just think of a perfect cyclinder. Now, sand a little off one side. When you roll it now, you will see a little daylight as it hits that one spot. Is it still straight? Definitely. Do you see light? Sure. Some say that if you see a variance in the amount of light you can see under that shaft then it is warped. If you had the instrumentation to do the testing, you could prove that there is not a single shaft on the planet that was made by man that is straight. No matter who made it, I guarantee that it isnt perfectly round all the way up and down the shaft. But I know there will be some that want to say they have a perfect shaft. But what they have is a shaft that is very, very close to perfect

this is the definition used by many cue builders of taper roll. the term today is used by many trying to sell a cue with a warp.

my PERSONAL opinion, is if a shaft, rolled on a pool table, or spun in a lathe wiggles or wobbles, it is crooked no mater what name is used.
 
desi2960 said:
... The easiest way is just think of a perfect cyclinder. Now, sand a little off one side. When you roll it now, you will see a little daylight as it hits that one spot. Is it still straight? Definitely. ...
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I think the shaft is no longer straight. If you sight along the side that was not sanded, it will look straight. If you turn the shaft 90 degrees, it will not look straight. I think the most important thing with a shaft is that it look straight because that is what gets into your aiming. I can play fine with a seriously bent shaft if the bend hangs down because the shaft looks straight from above.

I think a more reasonable way to define "straightness" is to consider many cross sections of the shaft, take the middle (center of gravity) of each cross section (each is a point) and join all the points into a line. If that line is straight, the shaft is straight. The shaft sanded on one side would not be straight unless you sanded the other side as well.

You could also hope that each cross section is round, which is probably a good thing. On the other hand, I've seen a triangular shaft that may have been an improvement over round.
 
bob, just to clairfy

the first paragraph of my last post, were not my words, that is a description of taper roll that i got from the cuemakers section.
i have never seen a triangle shaft, but i have seen a square one. a mennoite gentleman, that played in a few tournaments in buffalo missouri, showed up with a cue he made using a saw and plane. one piece square tapered, with the sharp edges sanded off a bit. could not roll it on the table, but it played o.k.
 
desi2960 said:
the first paragraph of my last post, were not my words, that is a description of taper roll that i got from the cuemakers section.
i have never seen a triangle shaft, but i have seen a square one. a mennoite gentleman, that played in a few tournaments in buffalo missouri, showed up with a cue he made using a saw and plane. one piece square tapered, with the sharp edges sanded off a bit. could not roll it on the table, but it played o.k.
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Awesome. A square shaft. Was the tip sguare? Now let's talk about miscue & english, etc.
 
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