Image of Pool, in Fact, was Created by a Con Artist

CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qam1fbQmA_s

By the presence of a pool table in your community.
Ya got trouble, my friend, right here,
I say, trouble right here in River City.
Why sure I'm a billiard player,
Certainly mighty proud I say
I'm always mighty proud to say it.
I consider that the hours I spend
With a cue in my hand are golden.
Help you cultivate horse sense
And a cool head and a keen eye.
Never take and try to give
An iron-clad leave to yourself
From a three-reail billiard shot?
But just as I say,
It takes judgement, brains, and maturity to score
In a balkline game,
I say that any boob kin take
And shove a ball in a pocket.
And they call that sloth.
The first big step on the road
To the depths of deg-ra-Day--
I say, first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon,
Then beer from a bottle.
An' the next thing ya know,
Your son is playin' for money
In a pinch-back suit.
And list'nin to some big out-a-town Jasper
Hearin' him tell about horse-race gamblin'.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no!
But a race where they set down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey'boy
Sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil?
Well, I should say.
Friends, lemme tell you what I mean.
Ya got one, two, three, four, five, six pockets in a table.
Pockets that mark the diff'rence
Between a gentlemen and a bum,
With a capital "B,"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
And all week long your River City
Youth'll be frittern away,
I say your young men'll be frittern!
Frittern away their noontime, suppertime, choretime too!
Get the ball in the pocket,
Never mind gittin' Dandelions pulled
Or the screen door patched or the beefsteak pounded.
Never mind pumpin' any water
'Til your parents are caught with the Cistern empty
On a Saturday night and that's trouble,
Oh, yes we got lots and lots a' trouble.
I'm thinkin' of the kids in the knickerbockers,
Shirt-tail young ones, peekin' in the pool
Hall window after school, look, folks!
Right here in River City.
Trouble with a capital "T"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
[ From: http://www.metrolyrics.com/ya-got-trouble-lyrics-music-man.html ]
Now, I know all you folks are the right kinda parents.
I'm gonna be perfectly frank.
Would ya like to know what kinda conversation goes
On while they're loafin' around that Hall?
They're tryin' out Bevo, tryin' out cubebs,
Tryin' out Tailor Mades like Cigarette Feends!
And braggin' all about
How they're gonna cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen.
One fine night, they leave the pool hall,
Headin' for the dance at the Arm'ry!
Libertine men and Scarlet women!
And Rag-time, shameless music
That'll grab your son and your daughter
With the arms of a jungle animal instink!
Mass-staria!
Friends, the idle brain is the devil's playground!


Read more: MUSIC MAN - YA GOT TROUBLE LYRICS http://www.metrolyrics.com/ya-got-trouble-lyrics-music-man.html#ixzz26NORHVy1
Copied from MetroLyrics.com
 
This got me thinking about why pool has such a negative connotation attached to it. Obviously the gambling that goes on is a big part of it but it doesn't really explain it.

Take casinos for example, it's widely know that back in the day several of them were crooked but they are looked at with acceptance by most people today.

Horse and dog tracks are almost the as far as the gambling is concerned and yet they are not looked down upon like pool gambling is.

Boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports in history and yet it is still revered in most peoples eyes.

Basketball, baseball, football etc, all have had crooked games and are still considered wholesome.

So why is it pool suffers this fate?

Recently I saw a friend of mine who came into the pool hall after being at the casino for a few hours. We were having a few drinks and started shooting some pool. After several games I said lets play the next one for a round of drinks (just for fun, I wasn't thinking of anything more)
Right away the mood changed some, it wasn't unfriendly or anything like that but I could tell he felt weird about it.

So I asked him what was up and he started talking in a hushed voice like we were doing a drug deal. He said "Do they allow that in here?" " can you get in trouble?" I told him dont worry about it, lol I was just looking to make it interesting but I can see your uncomfortable about it.

So why is it looked at so differently?

Sorry if I derailed your thread CJ, but when I read the topic called "The Image Of Pool" it started my wheels turning!
 
Yes, I always come back to those lyrics, if only it were that simple, all we'd have to do is write another song
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qam1fbQmA_s

By the presence of a pool table in your community.
Ya got trouble, my friend, right here,
I say, trouble right here in River City.
Why sure I'm a billiard player,
Certainly mighty proud I say
I'm always mighty proud to say it.
I consider that the hours I spend
With a cue in my hand are golden.
Help you cultivate horse sense
And a cool head and a keen eye.
Never take and try to give
An iron-clad leave to yourself
From a three-reail billiard shot?
But just as I say,
It takes judgement, brains, and maturity to score
In a balkline game,
I say that any boob kin take
And shove a ball in a pocket.
And they call that sloth.
The first big step on the road
To the depths of deg-ra-Day--
I say, first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon,
Then beer from a bottle.
An' the next thing ya know,
Your son is playin' for money
In a pinch-back suit.
And list'nin to some big out-a-town Jasper
Hearin' him tell about horse-race gamblin'.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no!
But a race where they set down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey'boy
Sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil?
Well, I should say.
Friends, lemme tell you what I mean.
Ya got one, two, three, four, five, six pockets in a table.
Pockets that mark the diff'rence
Between a gentlemen and a bum,
With a capital "B,"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
And all week long your River City
Youth'll be frittern away,
I say your young men'll be frittern!
Frittern away their noontime, suppertime, choretime too!
Get the ball in the pocket,
Never mind gittin' Dandelions pulled
Or the screen door patched or the beefsteak pounded.
Never mind pumpin' any water
'Til your parents are caught with the Cistern empty
On a Saturday night and that's trouble,
Oh, yes we got lots and lots a' trouble.
I'm thinkin' of the kids in the knickerbockers,
Shirt-tail young ones, peekin' in the pool
Hall window after school, look, folks!
Right here in River City.
Trouble with a capital "T"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
[ From: http://www.metrolyrics.com/ya-got-trouble-lyrics-music-man.html ]
Now, I know all you folks are the right kinda parents.
I'm gonna be perfectly frank.
Would ya like to know what kinda conversation goes
On while they're loafin' around that Hall?
They're tryin' out Bevo, tryin' out cubebs,
Tryin' out Tailor Mades like Cigarette Feends!
And braggin' all about
How they're gonna cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen.
One fine night, they leave the pool hall,
Headin' for the dance at the Arm'ry!
Libertine men and Scarlet women!
And Rag-time, shameless music
That'll grab your son and your daughter
With the arms of a jungle animal instink!
Mass-staria!
Friends, the idle brain is the devil's playground!


Read more: MUSIC MAN - YA GOT TROUBLE LYRICS http://www.metrolyrics.com/ya-got-trouble-lyrics-music-man.html#ixzz26NORHVy1
Copied from MetroLyrics.com
Click to expand...
It predates that by quite a bit. You can go back to the "Bowery boys", W.C. Fields and just about anytime a pool table is in the scene in a movie it is depicted as a comfort zone for the unsavory. Fast forward to the "Hustler" TV episodes of "The Lucy show", "My Three Sons", every episode of "Beretta" even the "Dick Vandyke show"and you can go on and on. Now here is the paradox. This image may be the only thing that has ever captured the interest of the public in the first place in regard to pool.

Even though it may feel to many as a negative, it may really be the only asset pool has of interest to the public. Even when they did the old timers thing on TV the theme song was from the "Sting" a movie about con men. I don't think a cleaned up image would really attract more attention then the mystique of the hustler/gunfighter/living by their wits rogue character who the public feels is interesting even admired. Meredith Willson didn't creat it, in "The Music man", he just fell in line with the popular perception.
 
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macguy said:
It predates that by quite a bit. You can go back to the "Bowery boys", W.C. Fields and just about anytime a pool table is in the scene in a movie it is depicted as a comfort zone for the unsavory. Fast forward to the "Hustler" TV episodes of "The Lucy show", "My Three Sons", every episode of "Beretta" even the "Dick Vandyke show"and you can go on and on. Now here is the paradox. This image may be the only thing that has ever captured the interest of the public in the first place in regard to pool.

Even though it may feel to many as a negative, it may really be the only asset pool has of interest to the public. Even when they did the old timers thing on TV the theme song was from the "Sting" a movie about con men. I don't think a cleaned up image would really attract more attention then the mystique of the hustler/gunfighter/living by their wits rogue character who the public feels is interesting even admired. Meredith Willson didn't creat it, in "The Music man", he just fell in line with the popular perception.
Click to expand...




I've been saying the same thing for many years. Give the people what interests them about pool and they might watch. Trying to clean up the image is like the "war on drugs" ! It's been tried and tried for so many years and it hasn't worked. Time to give them what they really want!
 
cuesmith said:
[/COLOR][/COLOR]


I've been saying the same thing for many years. Give the people what interests them about pool and they might watch. Trying to clean up the image is like the "war on drugs" ! It's been tried and tried for so many years and it hasn't worked. Time to give them what they really want!
Click to expand...

I disageee. Before the PGA, professional golf & golfers were fround upon. Only ametuer golf was respectable. Challenge matches & tourmanments involving both started to smoooth things out a bit. The difference is that it is no longer publicized that golfers gamble. When touranments became more prominant, golfers were playing for prize money. Playing for prize money seems to be more honorable & respectable than gambling one's own money or playing for a backer who get his 'cut' off of the players talent. It seems sort of like prostitution to the public. I would say pool should follow more along the lines of golf to gain respect & a piece of the money pie but pool is not like golf. Pool is more like tennis & maybe that is the route to take or a combination of golf & tennis as golf had & occasionally still does have challenge matches (match play events) like the Rider Cup & the President's Cup.

If they want seedy & you give them seedy then pool will ALWAYS be thought of as seedy. To the public you are what they percieve you to be. I do not think the true gentelmen of pocket billiards like Mr. Wiley want to be thought of as seedy. That's why Willie Mosconi did not like the image that Fats was promoting. Just my long winded nickel.

PS Pool needs to be standardized by one(1) national & one(1) international governing body. As for the public playing on easy tables to better enjoy the game, I disagree with that also. Most golfers can't break 90 & most bowlers can't average 200 but they play at least once a week, every week. They are amazed by those professionals because they can NOT do what the Pros can do.
 
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Might want to do a Pinocchio Check on the title of this thread, "in fact." The Music Man came out and was a hit on Broadway in 1957. Pool was notorious *way* before that. Hell, the story takes place in 1912.

Lou Figueroa
I'd give it
four noses
 
Very cool, it sounds like me, hanging out in seedy places, that would let me in, because I could play real good, growing up. The conversation, the gamble, the blues. The half dressed tramps. All good. A different world for sure. Thank you for sharing this.
 
macguy said:
It predates that by quite a bit. You can go back to the "Bowery boys", W.C. Fields and just about anytime a pool table is in the scene in a movie it is depicted as a comfort zone for the unsavory. Fast forward to the "Hustler" TV episodes of "The Lucy show", "My Three Sons", every episode of "Beretta" even the "Dick Vandyke show"and you can go on and on. Now here is the paradox. This image may be the only thing that has ever captured the interest of the public in the first place in regard to pool.

Even though it may feel to many as a negative, it may really be the only asset pool has of interest to the public. Even when they did the old timers thing on TV the theme song was from the "Sting" a movie about con men. I don't think a cleaned up image would really attract more attention then the mystique of the hustler/gunfighter/living by their wits rogue character who the public feels is interesting even admired. Meredith Willson didn't creat it, in "The Music man", he just fell in line with the popular perception.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the image of pool goes back quite a way. The original musical came out in 1957 but it was set in the early 1900's, inspired by the author's boyhood memories.
 
From a post I made to the Usenet newsgroup rec.sport.billiard in 1998. This was in response to someone's (Daniel's) comment about the tarnished image of pool.

If you're squeamish, skip this.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The following post has several purposes:

To satisfy Daniel's blood lust. The following will have to suffice
until Steven Spielberg does "Rambo Meets Mackey."

To alert you to one of the best-researched surveys of cue sports
history, namely "William Hendricks' History of Billiards,"
subtitled "A Compleat Historie of Billiards Evolution With Numerous
Illustrations," published by the author in 1974.

To give European, Asian and other "foreign" RSB readers some
insight to the American approach to the sport.

To demonstrate that the US has, in fact, made great progress in
cleaning up the game, contrary to other views expressed here.

The following is from page 14 of Hendricks' "History" in the section
titled "The Eighteenth Century: Billiards for Everyman."

[billiards still expensive ...] Even when the affluent did not wish
to mingle, the less-wealthy colonists could be obstreperously
democratic when it came to billiards. A horrified British officer
describes a 1780 dispute at colonial billiards between a gentleman
and "a low fellow" at a public table.

I shall relate the way the accident happened, to shew the
ferociousness of the lower class in this country; this gentleman
was at play in the billiard-room, where there were a number of
gentlemen and several of our officers: a low fellow, who
pretends to gentility came in, and in the course of play, some
words arose, in which he first wantonly abused [the gentleman]
and afterward ... flew at him, and in an instant turned his eye
out of the socket, and while it hung upon his cheek, the fellow
was barbarous enough to endeavor to pluck it entirely out, but
was prevented.(*)

(*) From Jane Carson's "Colonial Virginians at Play," University
Press of Virginia, 1964, p. 85.
​
I understand that this sort of thing never happens at the U.S. Open
in Virginia Beach, even when Earl is present.

Bob Jewett
 
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Pool's Image....the real story

Cdryden said:
This got me thinking about why pool has such a negative connotation attached to it. Obviously the gambling that goes on is a big part of it but it doesn't really explain it.

Take casinos for example, it's widely know that back in the day several of them were crooked but they are looked at with acceptance by most people today.

Horse and dog tracks are almost the as far as the gambling is concerned and yet they are not looked down upon like pool gambling is.

Boxing has been one of the most corrupt sports in history and yet it is still revered in most peoples eyes.

Basketball, baseball, football etc, all have had crooked games and are still considered wholesome.

So why is it pool suffers this fate?

Recently I saw a friend of mine who came into the pool hall after being at the casino for a few hours. We were having a few drinks and started shooting some pool. After several games I said lets play the next one for a round of drinks (just for fun, I wasn't thinking of anything more)
Right away the mood changed some, it wasn't unfriendly or anything like that but I could tell he felt weird about it.

So I asked him what was up and he started talking in a hushed voice like we were doing a drug deal. He said "Do they allow that in here?" " can you get in trouble?" I told him dont worry about it, lol I was just looking to make it interesting but I can see your uncomfortable about it.

So why is it looked at so differently?

Sorry if I derailed your thread CJ, but when I read the topic called "The Image Of Pool" it started my wheels turning!
Click to expand...

This song REALLY started all the bad rumors about pool rooms....as strange as it may seem when you tell the masses the same lie enough times they begin to believe it....like they say pool is NOT a good TV sport...that's BS, I have done a number of TV events and they ALWAYS got good ratings...people just don't know the facts about why pool hasn't made it into the main culture...it did with 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money'....the fault is in the industry not understanding advanced marketing techniques and how to create positive images and characters..... Minnesota Fats and Steve Mizerak knew how to do it.....and other know it too ;)
 
Actually, CJ, it started long before that. The Music Man was in the '50's. In the '30's, a motion picture by the name of Pinocchio got pool's poor image started. In the movie, Pinocchio wants badly to become a real boy. His wish is granted, and he immediately falls in with the "wrong crowd", where he proceeds to skip schoool, and go to Pirate Island. While there he enters a pool hall (shaped like a giant 8ball), where he begins playing pool, while smoking a stogie and drinkng a beer. What happens? Why Pinocchio is turned into a donkey! (shudder) Mothers across America began telling their male children, "See, that's what will happen to YOU, if you hang out in the pool hall. So smoking, skipping school and underage drinking were ignored, while playing pool got the bad rap. This was 2 decades before the musical, The Music Man, came out. Just thought I'd set ya straight on the history angle! LOL

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Edit: A doff of the hat to Lou and Bob...I posted before I read the entire thread. I've been telling the Pinocchio story for 20 yrs.

cjssecrets4u2 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qam1fbQmA_s

By the presence of a pool table in your community.
Ya got trouble, my friend, right here,
I say, trouble right here in River City.
Why sure I'm a billiard player,
Certainly mighty proud I say
I'm always mighty proud to say it.
I consider that the hours I spend
With a cue in my hand are golden.
Help you cultivate horse sense
And a cool head and a keen eye.
Never take and try to give
An iron-clad leave to yourself
From a three-reail billiard shot?
But just as I say,
It takes judgement, brains, and maturity to score
In a balkline game,
I say that any boob kin take
And shove a ball in a pocket.
And they call that sloth.
The first big step on the road
To the depths of deg-ra-Day--
I say, first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon,
Then beer from a bottle.
An' the next thing ya know,
Your son is playin' for money
In a pinch-back suit.
And list'nin to some big out-a-town Jasper
Hearin' him tell about horse-race gamblin'.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no!
But a race where they set down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey'boy
Sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil?
Well, I should say.
Friends, lemme tell you what I mean.
Ya got one, two, three, four, five, six pockets in a table.
Pockets that mark the diff'rence
Between a gentlemen and a bum,
With a capital "B,"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
And all week long your River City
Youth'll be frittern away,
I say your young men'll be frittern!
Frittern away their noontime, suppertime, choretime too!
Get the ball in the pocket,
Never mind gittin' Dandelions pulled
Or the screen door patched or the beefsteak pounded.
Never mind pumpin' any water
'Til your parents are caught with the Cistern empty
On a Saturday night and that's trouble,
Oh, yes we got lots and lots a' trouble.
I'm thinkin' of the kids in the knickerbockers,
Shirt-tail young ones, peekin' in the pool
Hall window after school, look, folks!
Right here in River City.
Trouble with a capital "T"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
[ From: http://www.metrolyrics.com/ya-got-trouble-lyrics-music-man.html ]
Now, I know all you folks are the right kinda parents.
I'm gonna be perfectly frank.
Would ya like to know what kinda conversation goes
On while they're loafin' around that Hall?
They're tryin' out Bevo, tryin' out cubebs,
Tryin' out Tailor Mades like Cigarette Feends!
And braggin' all about
How they're gonna cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen.
One fine night, they leave the pool hall,
Headin' for the dance at the Arm'ry!
Libertine men and Scarlet women!
And Rag-time, shameless music
That'll grab your son and your daughter
With the arms of a jungle animal instink!
Mass-staria!
Friends, the idle brain is the devil's playground!


Read more: MUSIC MAN - YA GOT TROUBLE LYRICS http://www.metrolyrics.com/ya-got-trouble-lyrics-music-man.html#ixzz26NORHVy1
Copied from MetroLyrics.com
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
cjssecrets4u2 said:
This song REALLY started all the bad rumors about pool rooms....as strange as it may seem when you tell the masses the same lie enough times they begin to believe it....like they say pool is NOT a good TV sport...that's BS, I have done a number of TV events and they ALWAYS got good ratings...people just don't know the facts about why pool hasn't made it into the main culture...it did with 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money'....the fault is in the industry not understanding advanced marketing techniques and how to create positive images and characters..... Minnesota Fats and Steve Mizerak knew how to do it.....and other know it too ;)
Click to expand...

Rumors, not exactly. The image of pool came from fact. Pool rooms were in fact what people thought they were. They were places where you could place bets or just hang out and do nothing. They were not in any way wholesome or a place where everyday people went.

My father owned a pool room/bowling alley in N.J. in the 30's. It was nothing more then a front for other activities with customers such as Arthur Flegenheimer (Dutch Shultz), Jack Legs Diamond, Joe Adonis and others. Many pool rooms were exactly what they were perceived as.
So this makes sense, my mother was not my fathers first wife and he was already an old man when I was born dying when I was pretty young. His story was actually an episode on the old TV show "The Untouchables" although highly fictionalized. I remember he loved that show. He used to sit on the floor watching TV and laugh like hell.
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
This song REALLY started all the bad rumors about pool rooms....as strange as it may seem when you tell the masses the same lie enough times they begin to believe it....like they say pool is NOT a good TV sport...that's BS, I have done a number of TV events and they ALWAYS got good ratings...people just don't know the facts about why pool hasn't made it into the main culture...it did with 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money'....the fault is in the industry not understanding advanced marketing techniques and how to create positive images and characters..... Minnesota Fats and Steve Mizerak knew how to do it.....and other know it too ;)
Click to expand...


Good grief. "The Music Man" had next to nothing to do with it.

Here's two others for your reading list: "The History of Pool" by Bill Hendricks and "Hustlers, Beats, and Others" by Ned Polsky.

Lou Figueroa
 
cjssecrets4u2 said:
This song REALLY started all the bad rumors about pool rooms....as strange as it may seem when you tell the masses the same lie enough times they begin to believe it....like they say pool is NOT a good TV sport...that's BS, I have done a number of TV events and they ALWAYS got good ratings...people just don't know the facts about why pool hasn't made it into the main culture...it did with 'The Hustler' and 'The Color of Money'....the fault is in the industry not understanding advanced marketing techniques and how to create positive images and characters..... Minnesota Fats and Steve Mizerak knew how to do it.....and other know it too ;)
Click to expand...

You're on the Internet dipstick, look it up.

Start with Google for an explaination of the term 'fact check'

Dale
 
lfigueroa said:
Good grief. "The Music Man" had next to nothing to do with it.

Here's two others for your reading list: "The History of Pool" by Bill Hendricks and "Hustlers, Beats, and Others" by Ned Polsky.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Lou to the rescue once again.
Personally, I blame it all on Willie's slip stroke.

Dale
 
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