Is there such a thing as a Brunswick Gold Crown fake?

There are several Gold Crown knock offs.I cannot remeber the name of any but they range from nearly identical and slightly off looking to total pieces of garbage.

I am also not a fan of GCs and I enjoyed the anti GC rants on this thread.They are pretty good home table because they look decent and can be made to play very nicely.As far as Gold Crowns in a competitive setting,they can be Diamonized to some extent but the more we play on Diamond tables the more the GCs will put us on tilt and or gouge our flesh.
 
They didn't have to.

What happened destroyed their reputation. Basically it's people mouthing off about a company not standing behind their product. You lose a lot of business. The customers didn't like getting warranty work rejected and blamed it on M&K, not the criminals. Then you spend the money to go after international criminals destroying your business....and you go broke....

That's basically what happened to them.


Kind of like around here when jackasses go off half cocked about a cue maker not standing behind his work. No forethought at all, just blind anger, and very often wrong anyway. I have seen JOSS attacked, Dan Janes personally attacked. Bill Stroud attacked...even dead cue makers attacked. I've seen McDermott attacked, Viking, Meucci....and a myriad of independent kaers. 90% is unwarranted, unreasonable, and often flat out wrong on the part of the accuser.


So.... yes, it destroys businesses.

When M&K went under all their parts were sold off. None of their current stuff is the same. They had vintage parts to repair all of their old equipment. Now if you need it such things are almost impossible to find and when you do find them they cost and arm and led. So although they are back...they really aren't back and never will be.


Low quality clones destroy a company's reputation because people don't know they are clones! What is really amazing is that most often when people find out they have a clone they still hold it against the original genuine manufacturer!


.

I agree. When I owned Instroke I didn't get inundated with warranty claims from people who owned knockoffs but I got enough to be seriously annoyed, probably 2 or 3 a week. Fortunately there weren't any counterfeits back then to my knowledge. I never came across a case back then with my brand on it that wasn't made by us.

Now these days I have seen many and that really sucks. Fortunately for me none of the people who had knockoffs in need of repair held it against us. Or I should say no one ever got mad at us over it and I did end up repairing a lot of those cases because I wanted to see how they were built. I charged for that so in the end I did make a tiny bit of money off the knockoffs....
 
Here's a picture of my Brunswick Gibson - it's a great table and looks good in a house. Even though the retail is about $9,000 I've seen them for sale as low as $2000 used. It's all real mahogany and mahogany veneers. It has the solid leather pockets which are noisier than the netted drop style, but they hold shots very well. It's really a great playing table.

Ernesto set this one up with Artemis cushions. It's a modern version of the Anniversary and has none of the negatives of a GC.

That's a beauty. Is that an 8 footer?
 
That's a beauty. Is that an 8 footer?

Hi Sarge - it's a 9' footer - I bought it from Jay Helfert a while ago. When I first saw it at Jay's I fell in love with it - then he offered it for sale on AZ. I couldn't believe my luck and I bought it. It's darn tight too. The table skirts and corners are all solid hardwood. He also had the matching rack and threw in a set of centennials and a Gorilla Rack - I highly recommend buying stuff from Jay!
 
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Hi Sarge - it's a 9' footer - I bought it from Jay Helfert a while ago. When I first saw it at Jay's I fell in love with it - then he offered it for sale on AZ. I couldn't believe my luck and I bought it. It's darn tight too. The table skirts and corners are all solid hardwood. He also had the matching rack and threw in a set of centennials and a Gorilla Rack - I highly recommend buying stuff from Jay!

Chris;

I agree that your Gibson is a real stunner. :thumbup:

You're a lucky man to have that setup.

Enjoy!

best,
brian kc <---- loves mahogany
 
Brian:

I agree with Bob. I know your GC1 is pristine, and I look forward to playing on it soon. But visit any pool hall with GCs (especially GCIIIs, which seem to be the most common in our agrea), and you'll see the telltale signs:

1. Score counter assemblies "lifting" out of the foot rail, presenting dangerously sharp metal edges that you can scrape a cue butt on if you happen to lean over them for a shot in the center of the table. Or worse yet -- as I did -- you can take a piece out of your hand on the final business delivery of the cue during a power stroke.

2. The plastic "pocket bucket backs" become rotated within their pockets, presenting the edges for a pocket-bound object ball to bounce off of. I was playing a set of one pocket against an opponent on a GCIII recently, and I actually had a pocket reject a ball that was hit with pocket-speed and literally bounced straight back out of the pocket back onto the table. I thought I was seeing things -- like a hand reached up from inside the pocket and swatted in the inbound ball right back onto the table. Then when I examined the pocket, it was easy to see why -- the pocket bucket liner had rotated, because the material itself stripped away from the screws that held it in place.

3. Screw heads from the pocket bucket liner damaging balls. These screws work loose, and the screw heads present themselves for the ball to hit. They are also poorly located -- right smack-dab at the back of the pocket, at the level where a firmly-hit object ball hits the back of the pocket.

4. The internal railing system (that carry the balls from the pockets to the ball collection tray) is poorly designed. Go into any pool hall, and you'll find at least two out of every six tables that have a "trick" pocket, where a ball falls onto the floor, or else hang inside the railing system, or worse yet, jump off the rail and disappear inside the wood framework of the table. That, by the way, applies to even fanatically-maintained tables (like those at Fast Eddies).

Those pool halls that have a mix of Diamonds and GCs demonstrate the difference between them. Other than pocket liners putting black spots on the balls (i.e. Diamonds), GCs present the most mechanical problems.

The engineering and care taken when putting together a Diamond is that much better than a GC.

-Sean

Sean;

Agreed that the GC3 models left a lot to be desired.

I think some of the things you mentioned above, however, can be considered normal maintenance items - loose screws should be tightened, yes? And these pocket screws are not located in the centers of the pocket but rather, one on each upper side of the pockets and they are recessed into the rubber fairly deep.

As for pockets rotating, I haven't really run into this on GC's that I've played on but I suppose if screws come loose or the material they are screwed into 'strips away', then it stands to reason a pocket liner could rotate. I'm glad to have not run into that issue anywhere I've played.

I have seen a score counter or two come loose from the foot rail - never paid attention to what model gc it was happening on.

I think there is no doubt that Diamond makes a better table but when it comes down to dollars and cents, you can make a good gold crown play like a dream with a visit from the right mechanic and accomplish it all for much less than the cost of a diamond. And, just a personal preference, but I sure do like the beautiful deco lines of a gold crown. :smile:

And, as you probably know, there are a few more issues with diamonds than their pockets leaving marks on the balls. Like, for instance, red labeled tables vs blue labels, why one is considered much better than the other, etc.

As I said earlier, though, I think that both Diamonds and GCs are lifetime tables, that if set up properly, would be a total joy to own. :)

And, btw, it was nice to see you last night - great finish! b-gok! :thumbup: :cool:

best,
brian kc
 
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yup 100000% accurate

they even counterfeit master chalk

And Triangle and Predator and not only that you can find Joss cloth, and Tim Scruggs tips, and fake Aramith balls, McDermott branded cues with Poison designs on them.....the list is endless.

I happen to have a good chalk story involving counterfeit Master chalk which I will save for another time. All I will say is that it led to me brokering the purchase of nearly a million pieces of genuine Master's directly from Tweeten.
 
Sean;

Agreed that the GC3 models left a lot to be desired.

I think some of the things you mentioned above, however, can be considered normal maintenance items - loose screws should be tightened, yes? And these pocket screws are not located in the centers of the pocket but rather, one on each upper side of the pockets and they are recessed into the rubber fairly deep.

As for pockets rotating, I haven't really run into this on GC's that I've played on but I suppose if screws come loose or the material they are screwed into 'strips away', then it stands to reason a pocket liner could rotate. I'm glad to have not run into that issue anywhere I've played.

I have seen a score counter or two come loose from the foot rail - never paid attention to what model gc it was happening on.

I think there is no doubt that Diamond makes a better table but when it comes down to dollars and cents, you can make a good gold crown play like a dream with a visit from the right mechanic and accomplish it all for much less than the cost of a diamond. And, just a personal preference, but I sure do like the beautiful deco lines of a gold crown. :smile:

And, as you probably know, there are a few more issues with diamonds than their pockets leaving marks on the balls. Like, for instance, red labeled tables vs blue labels, why one is considered much better than the other, etc.

As I said earlier, though, I think that both Diamonds and GCs are liketime tables, that if set up properly, would be a total joy to own. :)

And, btw, it was nice to see you last night - great finish! b-gok! :thumbup: :cool:

best,
brian kc

Most of the Gold Crowns came from pool rooms with a million games played on them and were poorly maintained, yet they survived.

You are correct; it's mostly in the set up. They are the classic of the classics, as recognizable to us as a Mustang or a Camaro. They will never go out of style and will always be desirable to own.
 
Try standing back and thinking about how you would change a GC to make it better. If you can think of nothing then you are not afflicted with my problem: engineer's attitude.

I have scars on my knuckles because some Brunswick idiot decided to put scorewheels and nameplates exactly where my knuckles pass if I use a nice, level stroke.

I get nasty, greasy goo on my cue when I have to bridge over the cheap fake rubber pocket liners which often stick out and help balls rattle.

People get dings on their cues because the pocket irons are not flush with the rest of the table.

The rack hanger (GC3) is another idiot design.

Put the balls into the front of the table at 1 pocket and they either rattle back and forth or they slide through to your opponent's side. Sometimes they hide behind the obnoxious Brunswick logo/nameplate, which makes counting difficult.

Pretty much every GC3 installed in this area about 15-20 years ago has dead/dying cushions. Technically, this is not a design misfeature, but it is broken supply chain monitoring. They started dying within a few years of installation. It makes every cushion contact an adventure.

The GC3 does not have doweled slates. (Usually there are brass pins that pass between adjoining slates to keep them aligned.) Some idiot at Brunswick decided to save a little money on the so-called top-of-the-line table. Good job, fool. This may not apply to all GC3s, but it does to the one I often play on where the foot slate started to buckle up.

The diamond sites on the curved rails are often hard to see.

The drop pockets ("drop" means there is no ball return) hold only three balls if you care about hard shots not being rejected. I shot a shot last night into an empty pocket and the ball took a loop around the bottom of the pocket and jumped back onto the table. Here's a trick I learned from Tony Annigoni: if you are going to shoot a ball hard, make sure there are exactly two balls in the pocket. One sits centered on the drain hole and is likely to spring the new ball back. Two balls are random enough to damp the extra energy. Three starts to be too full, and four is very, very dangerous.

All of the cheap, thin plating has worn off the pocket irons where I play. That happened in the first five years or so. Probably more cost-cutting on the "Cadillac". On older GCs, the metal trim leaves your light-colored pants streaked with oxide.

You might be interested in this comment from the official history of the Brunswick company, an excellent book called "Brunswick - The Story of an American Company - The First 150 Years", written by Rick Kogan and published in 1995 by Brunswick (page 97):

During the 1960s, billiards experienced a renaissance thanks to a film called "The Hustler," starring Paul Newman, Jackie Gleason, Piper Laurie, and George C. Scott. It re-introduced Americans to poolrooms around the county, and new facilities began to go up in suburban shopping centers and middle income neighborhoods. Many of these featured wall-to-wall carpeting, ersatz Tiffany lamps, and pastel tabletops. Most of them featured Brunswick tables. In 1966, some 3,000 new poolrooms opened, the majority called "family billiard centers." Though families sampled, they didn't stay. By 1970, this boom too was bust, and billiards would not again play a major role in Brunswick's operations .
(emphasis mine)

Hi Bob;

And thank you for your comprehensive and thoughtful reply.

Two things jumped out at me that I will share with you. I had my table reclothed two or three times prior to RKC coming here for the "cobracize" and during those previous recloths, I had new brunswick superspeed cushions put on. Turns out this was a mistake. A little research by me, unfortunately after the fact, revealed that all of the 'hard / dead spots I was experiencing on my new superspeeds were because of the inferior chinese rubber that is now being used. So, I don't know if that may be the cause of what you've described but I'd be mighty suspicious of this.

As for "the goo" marking your cue, I've had that happen numerous times on olhausen pockets and I even complained about it to my buddy who owned the room. I remember that as part of the first assembly of my table here at my house, that mechanic suggested I get new pocket liners and he said he had a set of the "really good ones" at his shop and I said "sure" and I've never had any problems whatsoever. And Glen even commented the first time he came here saying, "oh good, you have the best pockets". So, purely speculation but I wonder if the pockets you've had marking your cue, and even the ones on the olhausens I've played that black-striped my shafts, were of cheap quality, possibly imports.

As I mentioned in responding to Sean, it's agreed that the gc3's are problematic. Not having doweled slates on these models was a total bs move.

I have never had the unfortunate experience of rasping my knuckles on the counters, though, I have been nearly undressed by olhausens pockets. :eek: they seemed to be the exact right configuration for when you are down on a shot near a corner, occasionally your pants pocket material gets caught and so when you try to stand up and walk away, your pants want to stay.

It's an imperfect world.

best,
brian kc
 
I forgot: The scorewheels often don't work, maybe because they get gummed-up with blood.

that's funny! :grin-square:

you'll appreciate this from an engineers perpective.

my scorers weren't working and I was told it was almost certainly the springs that live inside these counters. So I went to buy them and IIRC, it was 8 that are needed but they were pretty darned expensive so I just order two to see if that was, in fact, the issue, as opposed to say, human blood and flesh. :grin:

as luck would have it, while Glen was here, and with the rail off he asked if I had the replacement springs and I only had the two so he told me to go find a foot or two of metal pallet strap material which I did. He fabricated the springs out of that material and the counters are working like new. :thumbup:

best,
brian kc
 
Aren't all pool tables Brunswick clones? They made tables for more than 150 years.
 
Sean;

Agreed that the GC3 models left a lot to be desired.

I think some of the things you mentioned above, however, can be considered normal maintenance items - loose screws should be tightened, yes? And these pocket screws are not located in the centers of the pocket but rather, one on each upper side of the pockets and they are recessed into the rubber fairly deep.

As for pockets rotating, I haven't really run into this on GC's that I've played on but I suppose if screws come loose or the material they are screwed into 'strips away', then it stands to reason a pocket liner could rotate. I'm glad to have not run into that issue anywhere I've played.

I have seen a score counter or two come loose from the foot rail - never paid attention to what model gc it was happening on.

I think there is no doubt that Diamond makes a better table but when it comes down to dollars and cents, you can make a good gold crown play like a dream with a visit from the right mechanic and accomplish it all for much less than the cost of a diamond. And, just a personal preference, but I sure do like the beautiful deco lines of a gold crown. :smile:

And, as you probably know, there are a few more issues with diamonds than their pockets leaving marks on the balls. Like, for instance, red labeled tables vs blue labels, why one is considered much better than the other, etc.

As I said earlier, though, I think that both Diamonds and GCs are lifetime tables, that if set up properly, would be a total joy to own. :)

And, btw, it was nice to see you last night - great finish! b-gok! :thumbup: :cool:

best,
brian kc

Hi Brian!

Yes, indeed -- virtually all the items I mentioned above are maintenance items. It just appears that the GC3s seem to be the problematic "high maintenance girl" of the bunch -- they need much more TLC than the other models that I've experienced.

The issues with the screws, though, are more common than you think in a big room. Sure, with your personal table, you can be "focused meticulous" in making sure everything's buttoned-up. But a big room of GC3s presents a challenge even to the most meticulous of proprietors -- even to Eddie Locke. Although we didn't discuss it last night (it wasn't the forum for it anyway, with my lady there, and we were enjoying the live music of the blues guitarist, Johnny Chapman), I oftentimes will point-out a pocket bucket problem with a table to Eddie, who, with an expected shake of his head, immediately grabs his toolbox and takes to it. He really has a hard time keeping up with all the maintenance issues with the GC3s.

You saw -- that table we were playing on last night -- had "trick" head-end corner pockets that were jarring even good-hit balls. Of course, that's a pocket-cut (shim?) problem, and not a bucket-liner problem. That's not a simple "go grab your screwdriver" fix-it thing. But, I expect the next time Eddie changes the cloth, he'll resolve that (in time for the Joss tour stop, surely).

I have a scar on the butt cap of my Fury playing cue, from the score counter lifting up out of the foot rail, which, thinking back, I neglected to show you last night. (But I can do that the next time we meet.) I was leaning over the foot rail for a "spot shot" on the head spot, and I was cueing over the score counter. I needed a little wrist snap to put some juice on the cue ball, and when I pulled back on the cue, <thock!> -- the very edge of the bottom of the butt of the cue hit the sharp edge of the score counter, leaving a deep gash on the bottom of the butt right next to the bumper. Yes, it's a Fury and not a thousand dollar custom, but still, it's one of my most favorite and all-time most used playing cues, and I was MIFFED! I've done that to my knuckles, too -- as Bob mentions. But knuckles heal; the damage to a cue has to be repaired.

Like you, I had a pool hall near me that recently closed -- in my case, Iron Willies in Yorktown Heights, NY. They had both Diamonds and GCs (3s and 4s), that were purchased from various WPBA events a good while back (they still had the WPBA & Iwan Simonis logos silk-screened on the sides of the table). The Diamonds were the favorites among the customers that "knew" the difference (i.e. the regulars and the leaguers). My Monday night one pocket sparring partner (a cue maker / repairman) and I had our favorite table at the head of the room, a Diamond with the one pocket ball separation bin option. Diamonds just seem to have that innate "once set up, they stay that way" quality -- you just need to change the cloth per normal schedule.

Don't get me wrong; if I had the space for a 9-footer and I came across a stupendous deal for a Gold Crown (especially an early one like you have -- a GC1), I'd of course take it. After all, a table is as good as it's set up, and I'd have Glen over to set it up -- and I'd know I'd be a happy camper with my investment. But given the CHOICE between a Diamond and GC -- all things being equal, including price -- I'd choose the Diamond. Even with the confusion between "red tag / blue tag" rails and cushions.

P.S.: it was indeed a pleasure seeing/playing you again last night! As you can tell, Lisa and I had a blast -- we were out for fun, and mission accomplished. I was a little sore from doing the "lumberjack thing" yesterday (i.e. splitting and hefting firewood), and I'm definitely feeling it today. But fortunately, I was able to deliver on occasion, and the "finish" was a great way to end the night. ;) BTW, I loved that "in your eye" kick-shot you pulled on Paul, after he locked you up behind a ball. The look on his face was priceless!

We'll have to do it again -- soon!
-Sean
 
By the way, the AMF lookalike table was an excellent pool table.

Now that you mention it, I am starting to notice that my AMF table bears a resemblance a Gold Crown.

The undercarriage is identical to a GC, the slate is Italian, and I bought a new table for the price of a used GC that had been beaten up in a pool hall. The rubber wasn't that great when I first got it. Too stiff. Balls tended to bounce off the rails. But after a couple of years of play, they matured nicely. Very similar to playing in the pool hall on a Gold Crown.

Greg
 

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Hi Sarge - it's a 9' footer - I bought it from Jay Helfert a while ago. When I first saw it at Jay's I fell in love with it - then he offered it for sale on AZ. I couldn't believe my luck and I bought it. It's darn tight too. The table skirts and corners are all solid hardwood. He also had the matching rack and threw in a set of centennials and a Gorilla Rack - I highly recommend buying stuff from Jay!

I thought so, it looked like it from the picture. The reason I asked is that on their website now the Gibson is not even available in 9', only 8'.

I don't know when they stopped making the 9 footer but I guess not only do you have a beautiful table, but it's a collectible as well. ;)
 
Aren't all pool tables Brunswick clones? They made tables for more than 150 years.

Um not quite, there were other companies in existence before brunswick got started and actually Brunswick merged several times with other big manufacturers. The name used to be the Brunswick-Balke & Collender Billiard Table Mfg. Inc. I think.

There are many table manufacturers making original designs. Unfortunately for China they seem to have settled on copying the Brunswicks and adding a bunch of crazy colors to them. But in the rest of the world there are many cool tables that Brunswick never even dreamed of making.
 
Now that you mention it, I am starting to notice that my AMF table bears a resemblance a Gold Crown.

The undercarriage is identical to a GC, the slate is Italian, and I bought a new table for the price of a used GC that had been beaten up in a pool hall. The rubber wasn't that great when I first got it. Too stiff. Balls tended to bounce off the rails. But after a couple of years of play, they matured nicely. Very similar to playing in the pool hall on a Gold Crown.

Greg

Looks like AMF Grand Prix table. It had K66 profile rubber iirc.
ACME was one common knock-off GC that I know of.

FWIW, many believe the GC when it had the Monarch cushions were the best banking pool table of all.
 
I thought so, it looked like it from the picture. The reason I asked is that on their website now the Gibson is not even available in 9', only 8'.

I don't know when they stopped making the 9 footer but I guess not only do you have a beautiful table, but it's a collectible as well. ;)

Try this page and choose "customize" (love the internet) - Seybert's shows the 9' as a $600 option.

http://www.brunswickbilliards.com/brunswick_collection/tables/casual/gibson.html
 
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