Gameland Billiards (now called Dismuke Billiards but I no longer visit) has Asian gold crown knockoffs branded as Olio. These tables resemble Gold Crowns but they are not as good and the slates can't be leveled in the same way according to Mark Gregory who expertly recovered them a couple of times.
Is there such a thing as a Brunswick Gold Crown fake?
- Thread starter rocshooter
- Start date
Gameland Billiards (now called Dismuke Billiards but I no longer visit) has Asian gold crown knockoffs branded as Olio. These tables resemble Gold Crowns but they are not as good and the slates can't be leveled in the same way according to Mark Gregory who expertly recovered them a couple of times.
The knock-off "clone" trade can be deadly to businesses.
One of my favorite speaker manufactures, Miller & Kreisel, went under several years ago because of it. They are the company that invented the satellite/sub speaker system (not BOSE, BOSE is crap equipment, real junk). They are back now but they are not the same company. Basically they were inundated with warranty claims that were actually cheap Chinese knock-offs. It put them under. They were a real legend in the industry....relatively unknown in the general public...as I implied most would think BOSE invented the satellite system. Numerous sound stages in Hollywood were outfitted by them as well as famous recording studios. I have one of their subs that I run with a pair of old Polk studio monitors.
I have heard of Brunswick clones before. As JB said I would doubt you would find many in the US.
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One of my favorite speaker manufactures, Miller & Kreisel, went under several years ago because of it. They are the company that invented the satellite/sub speaker system (not BOSE, BOSE is crap equipment, real junk). They are back now but they are not the same company. Basically they were inundated with warranty claims that were actually cheap Chinese knock-offs. It put them under. They were a real legend in the industry....relatively unknown in the general public...as I implied most would think BOSE invented the satellite system. Numerous sound stages in Hollywood were outfitted by them as well as famous recording studios. I have one of their subs that I run with a pair of old Polk studio monitors.
I have heard of Brunswick clones before. As JB said I would doubt you would find many in the US.
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That right there is the $1k in extras Tate was talking about. Premium cloth and cushions, with subrail extensions (not shims) to tighten the pockets is not cheap.
Doc, why did they have to make warranty repairs or take returns/refunds on product that wasn't theirs?
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the chinese "gold crown" replicas will most likely have their own brand on the table.. olio, aiilex, etc.
Personally I would buy a table that could be set up by a top mechanic to my specs. If I ran across one that played like a dream already, I would buy it, but that's not easy.
I would look for a decent table like a Diamond or Brunswick, decide if I wanted a certain look, decide on drop pockets or return (drop pockets are more reliable and less noisy for home use).
The major thing is the cushions and cloth. (I like Artemis rubber and Simonis cloth). As far as equipment goes, cushions and cloth really are the table. The mechanic is also major - how well they install the cushions, the precision of the pocket cut, how they level the slate, how they fix a bellied slate, how they set the joints, secure the rails, set the rail height, how well they stretch the cloth, what materials they use so everything is solid and stays that way. Also, a good mechanic will forsee issues that will become a problem and try to fix them.
So lets say you find a table for $1500 - budget an extra $1000 in it for custom cushions, cloth and set up. Then you have a dream playing table.
You want a quality table like a Diamond or Brunswick because they will usually have high grade slate and a proper support structure. After that, an occasional recovering and leveling is all you will need for many, many years. There are other brands that are high quality as well. If you know any good table mechanics, you could ask their opinions.
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rocshooter
Addicted
Definitely getting photos, and I will likely post them here if I have any questions. If it goes well I will go visit the table and inspect it. From the sounds of it, he is just using the term loosely.
rocshooter
Addicted
Does said Cobra travel to Rochester, NY? :frown:
If it's a GC 1, 2, or 3 I would not get it because of all the design "misfeatures". I know a lot of players grew up on GCs (as did I) and have bonded to them, but from an engineer's point of view, they are done wrong. The room I play in has both GC3s and Medalists from about 17 years ago. The Medalists are actually a better design as far as usability goes. (I don't know about being as solid.)
But try to find a Diamond if you can.
The "cobra" travels all over!
And by the way I recently picked up a 9' GC for $700, so they're out there.
Sent by a bass playin' mofo!
This is very surprising to read.
Bob, can you elaborate on what would be considered these "misfeatures" on the early GC's.
My GC1 was a very good table before it was "cobracized", and after Glen worked his magic, well, it's phenomenal.
I know of a couple of things like the early ones had brunstone instead of slate and the "1's" did not have the leveling feet but I am curious as to what all of the other issues are.
thanks.
best,
brian kc
This is very surprising to read.
Bob, can you elaborate on what would be considered these "misfeatures" on the early GC's.
My GC1 was a very good table before it was "cobracized", and after Glen worked his magic, well, it's phenomenal.
I know of a couple of things like the early ones had brunstone instead of slate and the "1's" did not have the leveling feet but I am curious as to what all of the other issues are.
thanks.
best,
brian kc
Brian:
I agree with Bob. I know your GC1 is pristine, and I look forward to playing on it soon. But visit any pool hall with GCs (especially GCIIIs, which seem to be the most common in our agrea), and you'll see the telltale signs:
1. Score counter assemblies "lifting" out of the foot rail, presenting dangerously sharp metal edges that you can scrape a cue butt on if you happen to lean over them for a shot in the center of the table. Or worse yet -- as I did -- you can take a piece out of your hand on the final business delivery of the cue during a power stroke.
2. The plastic "pocket bucket backs" become rotated within their pockets, presenting the edges for a pocket-bound object ball to bounce off of. I was playing a set of one pocket against an opponent on a GCIII recently, and I actually had a pocket reject a ball that was hit with pocket-speed and literally bounced straight back out of the pocket back onto the table. I thought I was seeing things -- like a hand reached up from inside the pocket and swatted in the inbound ball right back onto the table. Then when I examined the pocket, it was easy to see why -- the pocket bucket liner had rotated, because the material itself stripped away from the screws that held it in place.
3. Screw heads from the pocket bucket liner damaging balls. These screws work loose, and the screw heads present themselves for the ball to hit. They are also poorly located -- right smack-dab at the back of the pocket, at the level where a firmly-hit object ball hits the back of the pocket.
4. The internal railing system (that carry the balls from the pockets to the ball collection tray) is poorly designed. Go into any pool hall, and you'll find at least two out of every six tables that have a "trick" pocket, where a ball falls onto the floor, or else hang inside the railing system, or worse yet, jump off the rail and disappear inside the wood framework of the table. That, by the way, applies to even fanatically-maintained tables (like those at Fast Eddies).
Those pool halls that have a mix of Diamonds and GCs demonstrate the difference between them. Other than pocket liners putting black spots on the balls (i.e. Diamonds), GCs present the most mechanical problems.
The engineering and care taken when putting together a Diamond is that much better than a GC.
-Sean
Try standing back and thinking about how you would change a GC to make it better. If you can think of nothing then you are not afflicted with my problem: engineer's attitude.
I have scars on my knuckles because some Brunswick idiot decided to put scorewheels and nameplates exactly where my knuckles pass if I use a nice, level stroke.
I get nasty, greasy goo on my cue when I have to bridge over the cheap fake rubber pocket liners which often stick out and help balls rattle.
People get dings on their cues because the pocket irons are not flush with the rest of the table.
The rack hanger (GC3) is another idiot design.
Put the balls into the front of the table at 1 pocket and they either rattle back and forth or they slide through to your opponent's side. Sometimes they hide behind the obnoxious Brunswick logo/nameplate, which makes counting difficult.
Pretty much every GC3 installed in this area about 15-20 years ago has dead/dying cushions. Technically, this is not a design misfeature, but it is broken supply chain monitoring. They started dying within a few years of installation. It makes every cushion contact an adventure.
The GC3 does not have doweled slates. (Usually there are brass pins that pass between adjoining slates to keep them aligned.) Some idiot at Brunswick decided to save a little money on the so-called top-of-the-line table. Good job, fool. This may not apply to all GC3s, but it does to the one I often play on where the foot slate started to buckle up.
The diamond sites on the curved rails are often hard to see.
The drop pockets ("drop" means there is no ball return) hold only three balls if you care about hard shots not being rejected. I shot a shot last night into an empty pocket and the ball took a loop around the bottom of the pocket and jumped back onto the table. Here's a trick I learned from Tony Annigoni: if you are going to shoot a ball hard, make sure there are exactly two balls in the pocket. One sits centered on the drain hole and is likely to spring the new ball back. Two balls are random enough to damp the extra energy. Three starts to be too full, and four is very, very dangerous.
All of the cheap, thin plating has worn off the pocket irons where I play. That happened in the first five years or so. Probably more cost-cutting on the "Cadillac". On older GCs, the metal trim leaves your light-colored pants streaked with oxide.
You might be interested in this comment from the official history of the Brunswick company, an excellent book called "Brunswick - The Story of an American Company - The First 150 Years", written by Rick Kogan and published in 1995 by Brunswick (page 97):
During the 1960s, billiards experienced a renaissance thanks to a film called "The Hustler," starring Paul Newman, Jackie Gleason, Piper Laurie, and George C. Scott. It re-introduced Americans to poolrooms around the county, and new facilities began to go up in suburban shopping centers and middle income neighborhoods. Many of these featured wall-to-wall carpeting, ersatz Tiffany lamps, and pastel tabletops. Most of them featured Brunswick tables. In 1966, some 3,000 new poolrooms opened, the majority called "family billiard centers." Though families sampled, they didn't stay. By 1970, this boom too was bust, and billiards would not again play a major role in Brunswick's operations .
(emphasis mine)
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I forgot: The scorewheels often don't work, maybe because they get gummed-up with blood.
rocshooter
Addicted
Did you have him do your table? It seems like he is the man for the job. Any idea how much having him come to my house will end up costing?
Since my original post, I have been put in contact with a potential diamond table. It is a 15 year old 9' professional. Are there any major differences between that and a newer table?
That right there is the $1k in extras Tate was talking about. Premium cloth and cushions, with subrail extensions (not shims) to tighten the pockets is not cheap.
Doc, why did they have to make warranty repairs or take returns/refunds on product that wasn't theirs?
They didn't have to.
What happened destroyed their reputation. Basically it's people mouthing off about a company not standing behind their product. You lose a lot of business. The customers didn't like getting warranty work rejected and blamed it on M&K, not the criminals. Then you spend the money to go after international criminals destroying your business....and you go broke....
That's basically what happened to them.
Kind of like around here when jackasses go off half cocked about a cue maker not standing behind his work. No forethought at all, just blind anger, and very often wrong anyway. I have seen JOSS attacked, Dan Janes personally attacked. Bill Stroud attacked...even dead cue makers attacked. I've seen McDermott attacked, Viking, Meucci....and a myriad of independent kaers. 90% is unwarranted, unreasonable, and often flat out wrong on the part of the accuser.
So.... yes, it destroys businesses.
When M&K went under all their parts were sold off. None of their current stuff is the same. They had vintage parts to repair all of their old equipment. Now if you need it such things are almost impossible to find and when you do find them they cost and arm and led. So although they are back...they really aren't back and never will be.
Low quality clones destroy a company's reputation because people don't know they are clones! What is really amazing is that most often when people find out they have a clone they still hold it against the original genuine manufacturer!
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He did my table last October, the price depends upon the work that has to be done. It would be best to talk to him about that. The biggest problem for Glen, is that he is a one man show, and travels the entire country. I waited almost 3 years for him to get to my table. It was worth the wait.
Differences between a 15 year old Diamond and a new one....besides price, the new diamonds have the rails modified so they don't bank as short.
Differences between a 15 year old Diamond and a new one....besides price, the new diamonds have the rails modified so they don't bank as short.
Here's a picture of my Brunswick Gibson - it's a great table and looks good in a house. Even though the retail is about $9,000 I've seen them for sale as low as $2000 used. It's all real mahogany and mahogany veneers. It has the solid leather pockets which are noisier than the netted drop style, but they hold shots very well. It's really a great playing table.
Ernesto set this one up with Artemis cushions. It's a modern version of the Anniversary and has none of the negatives of a GC.
Ernesto set this one up with Artemis cushions. It's a modern version of the Anniversary and has none of the negatives of a GC.
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That is the most beautiful table I have seen!! I have an Anniversary and the Gibson is just awesome. Thanks for posting the pic!
Curly
Sir I don't know if the table you are referring to is a "Black Crown". If so they are not junk and are made in Canada. Here is alink to Mika Immonen doing a dvd on one.http://www.runoutmedia.com/masteringpool.html Here is a link to Canda Billiard that supplies them. Just click on the Black CrownII for specs. http://www.canadabillard.com/english/html/produits/html/comm.shtml#
I wish you every success. I have had one mechanic with over 30 years experience tell me he thinks they are great and would take one over a diamond any day. I have no comment on that as I don't fix tables. I have played on the black crown and enjoyed it. I prefer a Gold Crown myself. Best of luck. They are not junk but are much less than a gold crown. You can probabaly pick up a good one for $2g max used.
I wish you every success. I have had one mechanic with over 30 years experience tell me he thinks they are great and would take one over a diamond any day. I have no comment on that as I don't fix tables. I have played on the black crown and enjoyed it. I prefer a Gold Crown myself. Best of luck. They are not junk but are much less than a gold crown. You can probabaly pick up a good one for $2g max used.
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Jay what are your thoughts on these tables? Please hit link and scroll down to Black Crown II. Look at specs. I would appreciate and be grateful for any feedback privately if you like. I know it isn't easy when you aren't looking under a real table. Mika Immonen used one of these to film his Mastering pool series of DVDS. I respect you opinion and loved your book. Just reading it again for second time. Thanks:
http://www.canadabillard.com/english/html/produits/html/comm.shtml
http://www.canadabillard.com/english/html/produits/html/comm.shtml