WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[ENGLISH!]

So this "fairly common technique" can't be described in any rational way.

Par for this thread.

pj
chgo

PJ,

I'm not sure, at all, but I think they might be referring to the cue stick angle more than 'above the vertical axis'.

My cue angle changes slightly from a low draw to a high follow.

I think they probably keep their cue more on the same angle & adjust with their bridge height & distance from the CB.

Hence they would be hitting more closely toward center than I would.

Just my guess.
Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have to aim on the right edge to hit the left edge and cut the ball in the corner.

CJ,

Regarding the blue highlights, as Spock would say, 'Interesting'.

I've found just the opposite. It's always about getting the correct combination of squirt & swerve back to the OB. I've found it easier to do that with a more level cue & have been doing it very well for 46 years, however I probably shoot at slower speeds than you, so the CB has time to swerve back. When I do elevate the cue, I occasionally get too much swerve as I don't hit it hard enough.

I guess that is why they say, different strokes for different folks.

I'm still trying to find my 'fingerprint' on the firm grip/wrist catalyst. I think I took the tennis grip part too literally. I'm now going to put it a bit more into my fingers, similiar to the bottom hand of the golf grip.

Wish me 'luck',

That doesn't make any sense to me. When you spin the cue ball with a level cue it DOESN'T curve back as much as if you use your cue angled down slightly. When I arrived at a major tournament I would always shoot shots at the speed and angle it took to counter act their effects.

Different cloth types, humidity conditions and ball weights will effect this, so I would suggest learning how to test it for yourself. It's the difference that might make the difference in adjusting quickly to your surroundings.

When shooting a long shot that "requires" spin it's essential to know the speed you need to hit it so you don't allow for the spin/deflection ratio. This gives you a referential index for other similar shots that may come up.

The idea playing perfect pool is difficult for me to imagine without trying to hit as many shots as possible at the same speed. Speed effect spin and deflection ratios and would be virtually impossible for someone to judge time and time again. For this reason it's best to hit the cue ball at a consistent speed and have your cue at a constent angle. imho

Take any masse' shot as an example, the more you elevate, the more the spin will make it curve(relative to how how much it deflects). I do a shot where I freeze the object ball on the middle end diamond and cue ball ON the opposite end diamond. I have to aim on the right edge to hit the left edge and cut the ball in the corner.

This is the "trick" to this shot, it looks impossible to many people, but you have to aim at one side to hit the other. This is because I have to use a level cue and the ball deflects WAY more than it curves back. I would hate to have to allow for this much veer/deflection in a game.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Using a level cue, and spin is a bad combination when applying excess speed too

The better I get, the more I tend to lean towards this style. It takes some practice and getting used to and might prove difficult for people that don't have a good amount of feel for the game, but its far easier to visualize when you have to spin the cue ball from far away.

Yes, when you're a beginner they tell you to use "center ball" and a "level stroke" and then when you get to: intermediate level you know you need to spin the cue ball at times, but it's difficult with a "level stroke".

You have to learn on your own or watching top players the technique of elevating your cue slightly on most shots. This will really become apparent as you start adding speed to your shots.

Using a level cue, and spin is a bad combination when applying excess speed too. Try setting up some long shots and use a level cue and spin. You will be lucky to make 50% of them under pressure.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

This technique sounds like the way warren kiamco shots to me, his follow looks to me like he is at most a half tip above center cue ball. Now it also looks to me like he hits the cue ball with the top part of his tip lol maybe im loosen it I really like kiamco and his technique is very interesting to me. I have to play some league tomorrow and will try it.

http://vimeo.com/48011269#t=2878

 

[swest]

.
then when you get to: intermediate level you know you need to spin the cue ball at times, but it's difficult with a "level stroke"
.
.
You have to learn on your own or watching top players the technique of elevating your cue slightly on most shots.
.
.

I'm sorry, why is it difficult to spin the ball (I assume you are talking left or right side) with a level stroke?

And, elevate your cue slightly on most shots? Why is that?

 

[ENGLISH!]

That doesn't make any sense to me. When you spin the cue ball with a level cue it DOESN'T curve back as much as if you use your cue angled down slightly. When I arrived at a major tournament I would always shoot shots at the speed and angle it took to counter act their effects.

Different cloth types, humidity conditions and ball weights will effect this, so I would suggest learning how to test it for yourself. It's the difference that might make the difference in adjusting quickly to your surroundings.

When shooting a long shot that "requires" spin it's essential to know the speed you need to hit it so you don't allow for the spin/deflection ratio. This gives you a referential index for other similar shots that may come up.

The idea playing perfect pool is difficult for me to imagine without trying to hit as many shots as possible at the same speed. Speed effect spin and deflection ratios and would be virtually impossible for someone to judge time and time again. For this reason it's best to hit the cue ball at a consistent speed and have your cue at a constent angle. imho

Take any masse' shot as an example, the more you elevate, the more the spin will make it curve(relative to how how much it deflects). I do a shot where I freeze the object ball on the middle end diamond and cue ball ON the opposite end diamond. I have to aim on the right edge to hit the left edge and cut the ball in the corner.

This is the "trick" to this shot, it looks impossible to many people, but you have to aim at one side to hit the other. This is because I have to use a level cue and the ball deflects WAY more than it curves back. I would hate to have to allow for this much veer/deflection in a game.

'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

I almost never hit near or through the vertical axis. I'm usually hitting @ 5:00, 7:00, 11:00, or 1:00 with some variations & usually well away from center & with as level a cue as I can. I have long been very adept with these types of hits. By varying the speed I can play a deflection compensation 'straight' hit or I can play a mini masse to increase or decrease the cut angle if needed.

When I elevate the cue, I usually mis-hit the OB on the curve side rather than the deflection/squirt side. My speed is off because firstly I do not hit elevated as often & secondly I usually do not want to hit TOO hard so I do not committ correctly & wind up under hitting which allows the spin to 'overtake' the squirt with in my planned aim.

Maybe I am a 'savant' in the level cue area. It works very well for me.

Best Regards,

 

[CJ Wiley]

The closest in history that I can think of was Steve Gumphreys

I'm sorry, why is it difficult to spin the ball (I assume you are talking left or right side) with a level stroke?

And, elevate your cue slightly on most shots? Why is that?

It's not difficult to spin the ball, it's difficult to judge the amount that it deflects out and curves in. There's an angle you can make that deflects and curves the same amount, however the "level cue" doesn't do it.

That's why you'll see the top pros shooting down on the cue ball most of the time. When you're following the ball it's really not that important UNLESS you're shooting it with a lot of speed. If you can play at a high level with a level cue then I'd be amazed because I've never played anyone does. It's just TOO difficult to judge spin shots with excess speed.

The closest in history that I can think of (that played with less angle) was Steve Gumphreys MANY years ago. But he played a different type game and was great shooting with a broomstick and followed his ball much more then anyone I had ever seen. He also was an expert with a big ball on a bar table (and a big table).

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
There's an angle you can make that deflects and curves the same amount, however the "level cue" doesn't do it.

There's really no such thing as a truly level cue, even when hitting above center ball. So swerve is a factor in all shots with side spin, and the amount of swerve changes not only with butt elevation and speed, but also with distance and amount of side spin. So the "angle" where squirt and swerve are equal is different for just about every shot.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

"If you want to start winning you better stop spinning,"

CJ,

I almost never hit near or through the vertical axis. I'm usually hitting @ 5:00, 7:00, 11:00, or 1:00 with some variations & usually well away from center & with as level a cue as I can. I have long been very adept with these types of hits. By varying the speed I can play a deflection compensation 'straight' hit or I can play a mini masse to increase or decrease the cut angle if needed.

When I elevate the cue, I usually mis-hit the OB on the curve side rather than the deflection/squirt side. My speed is off because firstly I do not hit elevated as often & secondly I usually do not want to hit TOO hard so I do not committ correctly & wind up under hitting which allows the spin to 'overtake' the squirt with in my planned aim.

Maybe I am a 'savant' in the level cue area. It works very well for me.

Best Regards,

I'm not sure your level of play, but I would think you have some room for improvement.

It sounds like you're using english to help pocket the object ball and in my opinion that's a critical error. It's difficult for any of us to judge spin shots consistently and it's best to figure out how to play with "NO SPIN".

You know my position on this from the aiming threads. "If you want to start winning you better stop spinning," is the best advice I ever heard. :wink:

 

[Masayoshi]

There's really no such thing as a truly level cue, even when hitting above center ball. So swerve is a factor in all shots with side spin, and the amount of swerve changes not only with butt elevation and speed, but also with distance and amount of side spin. So the "angle" where squirt and swerve are equal is different for just about every shot.

pj
chgo

It technically is different for every shot, but the differences are very miniscule so with practice, your subconsious can make all the necessary adjustments.

I think its important to use a combination of compensation for english by changing the aim of the cue (like BHE) and the angle elevation because using just one technique will not be ideal in every situation. Its A LOT easier to visualize long shots when you can aim somewhere near the object ball. Pure BHE would have you aiming into no-mans-land on standard cues. Likewise, if you are very close to the object ball, it would not be practical to do a full masse into the OB. Ideally you would want to gain enough experience to have a balance between the two techniques.

 

[CJ Wiley]

This looks AMAZING, but is actually pretty easy, IF you know how it works.

There's really no such thing as a truly level cue, even when hitting above center ball. So swerve is a factor in all shots with side spin, and the amount of swerve changes not only with butt elevation and speed, but also with distance and amount of side spin. So the "angle" where squirt and swerve are equal is different for just about every shot.

pj
chgo

The more I elevate, the more the spin curves in compared to the deflection going out. At some point I have to adjust my aiming for this factor and if I'm applying speed it's virtually impossible to do every time. Understanding speed control is "the difference that makes the difference", once you calibrate your speed, relative to your cue angles and spin variances you are 90% "golden".

There's a technique for masse's that you go around balls that are in your way, that allows you to "pretend they aren't there." The ball will deflect out (around the ball) and come back the same amount to make the ball you're shooting at. This looks AMAZING, but is actually pretty easy, IF you know how it works.

I would hate to have to play under these conditions, especially under humid conditions. How many of you play in Florida or Houston? How does the spin and deflection change when it get's really "wet" outside? Brutal conditions for the "ball spinners" out there. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[sfleinen]

I'm not sure your level of play, but I would think you have some room for improvement.

It sounds like you're using english to help pocket the object ball and in my opinion that's a critical error. It's difficult for any of us to judge spin shots consistently and it's best to figure out how to play with "NO SPIN".

You know my position on this from the aiming threads. "If you want to start winning you better stop spinning," is the best advice I ever heard. :wink:

Uh oh, CJ, you just undermined his whole world of pool (see his profile and .sig). You keep that stuff up, and you might get added to his AZB-only-time-history-that-someone-published-their-Ignore list (with the event announced to the world at the same time, no less).

All funnin' aside, I agree with you. I used to think -- and l-o-n-g ago -- that one is supposed to pocket balls with "helping" english or spin. It was only after I learned how to do the same thing with no english (center-axis hit, or even inside spin for holding-cueball/checking-off-the-cushion purposes) that another cylinder in my pool engine started firing. And it opened another level of 14.1 high runs for me, personally.

-Sean

 

[cookie man]

So this "fairly common technique" can't be described in any rational way.

Par for this thread.

pj
chgo

Pretty common for you, its been described but apparently "not in your language".

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Pure gold right there CJ.

The idea playing perfect pool is difficult for me to imagine without trying to hit as many shots as possible at the same speed. Speed effect spin and deflection ratios and would be virtually impossible for someone to judge time and time again. For this reason it's best to hit the cue ball at a consistent speed and have your cue at a constent angle. imho

 

[CJ Wiley]

I don't think we ever reach a level that isn't still good to experiment

Uh oh, CJ, you just undermined his whole world of pool (see his profile and .sig). You keep that stuff up, and you might get added to his AZB-only-time-history-that-someone-published-their-Ignore list (with the event announced to the world at the same time, no less).

All funnin' aside, I agree with you. I used to think -- and l-o-n-g ago -- that one is supposed to pocket balls with "helping" english or spin. It was only after I learned how to do the same thing with no english (center-axis hit, or even inside spin for holding-cueball/checking-off-the-cushion purposes) that another cylinder in my pool engine started firing. And it opened another level of 14.1 high runs for me, personally.

-Sean

I can certainly relate to that, Sean. It seems like it's natural to put "helping englsh" on the shots, but I know it's essential to resist that temptation.

As I've stated on more than one occasion, I even cue the ball slightly to the inside (without spinning it), and MAKE SURE I don't put any outside english on it, even by mistake.

I'm glad eveyone's given their input on this thread. My stroke is almost back to where it used to be, but I've had to make some adjustments. I'm more certain than ever that my wrist/fingers are critical in my own Game.

MAKING myself play with no practice strokes and using my wrist primarily in practice has really brought back my old feel for the Game. I hope it's helping you guys improve if nothing more than "soul searching" about how you like doing things. There's many ways to play this game effectively.

I don't think we ever reach a level that isn't still good to experiment, just to see if something might be just a shade better. You never know what you might discover just "playing around" with how someone else experiences the game. 'The Game is the Teacher'
www.cjwiley.com

 

[TheThaiger]

Uh oh, CJ, you just undermined his whole world of pool (see his profile and .sig). You keep that stuff up, and you might get added to his AZB-only-time-history-that-someone-published-their-Ignore list (with the event announced to the world at the same time, no less).

Not true. I've seen ignore lists published several times on here - chefjeff alone has about 20 posters on ignore.

 

[sfleinen]

Not true. I've seen ignore lists published several times on here - chefjeff alone has about 20 posters on ignore.

Funny how you pick the parts of posts to reply to that have nothing to do with continuing discussion on the topic at hand.

We are getting off-topic here, and I disagree with your observation. From what I can see, chefjeff doesn't "publish" his Ignore list -- either in his signature nor any place on his profile that I can see:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=1042

Try again, Tim. He may have mentioned it in a single post (most likely in NPR somewhere), but he doesn't "advertise" his Ignore list in every single post he makes -- via signature display -- as my post stated.

It takes a severe case of OCD to do that. And more importantly, what purpose does it serve, except to seek attention?

But again, we're getting off-topic here.
-Sean

 

[TheThaiger]

Funny how you pick the parts of posts to reply to that have nothing to do with continuing discussion on the topic at hand.

We are getting off-topic here, and I disagree with your observation. From what I can see, chefjeff doesn't "publish" his Ignore list -- either in his signature nor any place on his profile that I can see:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/member.php?u=1042

Try again, Tim. He may have mentioned it in a single post (most likely in NPR somewhere), but he doesn't "advertise" his Ignore list in every single post he makes -- via signature display -- as my post stated.

It takes a severe case of OCD to do that. And more importantly, what purpose does it serve, except to seek attention?

But again, we're getting off-topic here.
-Sean

'Getting off topic?'. On THIS thread?

You should only gloat when you're on very firm ground, Sean. Your post is quite emphatic, and has been repeated. It is also wrong.

AZB-only-time-history-that-someone-published-their-Ignore list

 

[ENGLISH!]

The more I elevate, the more the spin curves in compared to the deflection going out. At some point I have to adjust my aiming for this factor and if I'm applying speed it's virtually impossible to do every time. Understanding speed control is "the difference that makes the difference", once you calibrate your speed, relative to your cue angles and spin variances you are 90% "golden".

There's a technique for masse's that you go around balls that are in your way, that allows you to "pretend they aren't there." The ball will deflect out (around the ball) and come back the same amount to make the ball you're shooting at. This looks AMAZING, but is actually pretty easy, IF you know how it works.

I would hate to have to play under these conditions, especially under humid conditions. How many of you play in Florida or Houston? How does the spin and deflection change when it get's really "wet" outside? Brutal conditions for the "ball spinners" out there. 'The Game is the Teacher'

CJ,

I'm in New Orleans, so dealing with different conditions day in & day out on different table clothes is 'normal'.

I use inside more than I use outside. I almost never use excess speed. I'm using spin more to control the cue ball than to pocket balls. I do not use side spin on the money ball unless there is a scratch to be avoided.

Your 'around the ball' shot works just as well even if a ball is not in the way. It can increase or decrease the cut angle & thus the path that the cue ball takes after contact.

The human mind & body is an amazing combination of attributes. I fully believe that the subconscious mind can make ones body make the necessary adjustments in order to perform the task at hand. It really is not that 'difficult' just as the 'J' piston stroke is not that 'difficult'.

Would you suggest telling Earl & Efren to stop using spin?

For me, playing with no spin would not be fun. It would be like going back to painting houses with a roller & a four(4) inch brush after having painited masterpieces with an artist's brush.

I've never seen an accomplished player that could not use english. I think not being able to use english is a sentence to mediocrity. One might win the games they are suppose to win but they will not win the games that do not roll their way. They will not be able to take the win from the jaws of defeat.

Different strokes for different folks.

Maybe I'm an enigma. But... I'm a happy one.:smile:

Best Regards & Respect,

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The more I elevate, the more the spin curves in compared to the deflection going out.

This is why I question the wisdom of habitually elevating your butt - doing that accentuates swerve (makes the curve sharper), which makes it harder to estimate, not easier.

The usual theory about this is that creating more swerve to exactly cancel squirt (so you can aim straight at the contact point) makes aiming easier - but I think that's backward. Between squirt and swerve, swerve is by far the more difficult to estimate, because it's caused by a much more complex set of variables. The amount of squirt is determined only by the amount of tip offset, but the amount of swerve depends on that plus distance, speed, butt elevation, equipment age and cleanliness, even humidity and temperature.

If we could eliminate swerve altogether and deal only with squirt, aiming would be much easier, even though we'd have to aim farther from the contact point, because squirt is consistent. So increasing swerve (making it harder to estimate), even though it means we can aim closer to the contact point, is ultimately harder to do consistently.

It may be that many pros do it (I'm not entirely convinced), but pros can adapt even to questionable practices much more readily than mere mortals. I personally would hesitate to recommend this technique, especially to developing players.

pj
chgo