WRISTS - The "hidden power catalyst" of a great stroke or "just along for the ride"?

[CJ Wiley]

And of course he knew he had indeed "Pinned it"

Pinning is a carpentry term. I use an air nailer with small brads to connect two pieces together. I also take it as a literal movement downward or pushing against a surface.

Does the stroke feel like you are pushing slightly down and through the cue ball? That's what I feel. Then my tip comes up as it rolls off the top of the cue ball. Not like deflecting up, but still grabbing the cue ball.

I can't tell exactly where I'm hitting the cue ball. I thought it was a very slight amount above center. I need to hit a slight amount below center to get a better stroke? I may be doing that already, just not able to see it because I am so close to center.

Best,
Mike

"Pinning" is a term often used by the one handed champions. They have to perform this technique to maneuver the cue ball around without using a bridge OR a rail. This is MUCH more difficult than playing with two hands.

I traveled with Jr. Weldon, who many considered one of the all time greatest one handed players and he showed me this technique when I was 19. It was incredible how well he played one handed "jacked up" and could draw his ball the length of the table "jacked up" using no bridge and no rail.

He used to look at me after he shot something like that, smile, and say "I pinned that one didnt' I?" And of course he knew he had indeed "Pinned it". 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

There are many ways to play this Game of pool well

I never said I was tired of the thread just all the petty nit picking. I'm not sure what CJ said that you keep referring to as not factual and has caused so much animosity in your posts. On a pool forum believe it or not some of us are interested in how a world champion approaches the game. Maybe his opinions or methods differs from yours but why continue the nit picking?
In a nutshell I take away from this thread 3 things that CJ is giving his insights on, keep in mind that over and over he is explaining how he does it, not how everyone must do it.
1) He cocks his wrist and as he contacts the cb uncocks it with a forward down motion. He feels this makes a big difference in his stroke. His grip is also described as tight in his fingers giving him a better feel for the cb, not a loose grip advocated by some instructors. For whatever reason the way CJ strikes a ball really rubbed a few the wrong way.
2)He likes to slightly elevate his cue rather than a level stroke and used the term "pinning" to describe using the top of the tip to precisely strike the ball. He was quickly ridiculed by a few because they said it was impossible to follow using this technique. Even a couple of diagrams were thrown in to prove the folly. As soon as a couple of posters with some cred post that it is possible, all of a sudden the technique is old news and well known.
3) the third thing I found interesting is to not use a bunch of practice strokes once you are down on the ball. I have tried this and so far I like it. Different strokes for different folks.
I'm still not sure what CJ has said that is not factual.

There's really know reason for anyone to feel threatened by sharing how I stroke the ball, aim, play position, or how my "cue angle" is effected by my wrists/hands/fingers to create the ability to "Pin" the cue ball.

There are many ways to play this Game of pool well. Mine is just one of them, and I'm sure sure if several champion players described what they do they would sound slightly different.

The "Pinning Technique" is a bit advanced and I probably introduced that one out of order. There are a few others that I want to talk about in the next couple of weeks, until I have to totally prepare for the Mosconi Cup.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I have the patience, as long as players truly want to improve

I wasn't gonna "go there", but I can't help myself....

Another factor to consider in all this drama is the faction of very knowledgeable and (usually) helpful veterans of this forum sometimes seem to become very protective of "their turf".

I understand that most of these subjects have been discussed before, and that there is probably very little that is truly "new". But just because some of you folks have been discussing this back to the RSB days, well.... I wasn't around pool then. I expect that many, many more of us haven't been discussing pool theories and techniques on a forum for an extended period of time, either. So when someone starts talking about something here and you've discussed it before, doesn't mean that it isn't fresh and new to a bunch of people.

Similarly, just because someone phrases things differently than you folks have been doing here for so long, doesn't mean the message is bad. And yes, while it could be less confusing if most people used the same terminology, it doesn't have to be a flash point.

Having different ways to describe the same thing is not bad, either. While the specific example escapes me at the moment, something CJ was referencing clicked for me, where it hadnt before, simply because it was described differently.

I think that debate is healthy. I don't think that sniping, and continuously nit picking points of discussion is helpful at all, and takes away from the message.

Yes, it's said sometimes it take explaining things in several different ways to completely understand a new paradigm.

Some of the techniques I'm describing takes a full 20 to 30 minutes to describe in person and that's with me demonstrating as well.

I have the patience, as long as players truly want to improve I'll spend how ever long it takes to pass on the information and knowledge.

The resistance to new information makes me wonder what's really going on in these Forums. I know one thing for sure, it's not what they say it is. :wink: I'll bet all I can carry on that one. :groucho:

 

[ENGLISH!]

Why don't you cite your reference data proving me wrong?

Oops, doesn't matter, I'm slitting my wrists now that you've taken back my "greenie". LMAO!

I can assure you that you will be better served focusing on your nut hugging and keeping me on ignore. Sooner or later, you'll "Real Eyes" that.

And BTW, the game isn't my teacher. Good Instructor(s), fundamentals and FACT BASED information is my teacher. The game is the joy and entertainment I receive from that learning.

nob,

Like pool, I learned golf so many years ago that I can not remember my original reference source. (I guess we should ask for your reference sources in regards to anything that you say so as to suggest lying or mis-information. Seems like it's a common tactic for the 'Vigilante Committee')

However... thanks to the internet you can go to www.golfclubtechnology.com/gear.effect

Maybe you'll learn something. Maybe you'll learn that there are many things that you simply do NOT know, in spite of your immense EGO.

Speaking of nut hugging, how are Scott Lee's?
I just saw your 'advertisment' for him in your 'breaking' thread.
You have a direct connection to Scott Lee. I, however, have no such connection with CJ Wiley other than here on AZB & a couple of visits to his Facebook Page.

You're starting to look more & more like a stereotypical used car salesman for Scott Lee & the SPF system.
Or maybe you got a great deal & you just have to make a few 'payments'.

or

Does anyone else on AZB wonder about the possiblity of multiple identities?

Have a good evening, nob.


Best thing I ever did on AZB, for myself, was putting Neil on ignor.

The second best thing I ever did on AZB, for myself, was putting the insulting nobcitypool on ignor.

I never should have peeked.

Sorry all you used car salesman out there, I know most, if not all, of you are not the stereotypical used car salesman type.

 

[TheThaiger]

I just saw your 'advertisment' for him in your 'breaking' thread.

And terrific repost from Renfro, I hope.

 

[dr_dave]

Follow physics is very different from draw physics.

With draw, the CB loses backspin as the CB drags across the cloth on the way to the OB. The only way to get more draw action is to use more speed and/or hit the CB lower. Although, there are diminishing returns as you approach the miscue limit. With a power draw shot (with good draw action over a long distance), the optimal tip offset is not at the miscue limit, but a little bit higher (but still well below center). For more info, see:

power draw advice
physics-based draw advice
“How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011)​

The following video illustrates, describes, and demonstrates this effect:

NV B.65 - Power draw technique advice from VEPS I​

Here's the image I posted earlier (from the normal roll and overspin resource page) that summarizes recommended tip positions for different types of shots:

With a draw shot, added cue elevation generally results in less draw. For more info, see:

draw shot cue elevation effects​

However, cue elevation is required for certain types of draw shots (see quick draw).

With follow shots, the CB naturally picks up topspin as it drags across the cloth. The following illustration posted by PJ many years ago illustrates the effect very well:

If there is enough distance between the CB and OB and/or if a shot is hit softly enough, it can have full follow effect regardless of how high or low you hit the CB, as long as the CB develops full roll before it reaches the OB.

Now, with force follow shots, where the CB is close to the OB and/or where fast speed is used, the only way to get maximum follow action is to hit the CB at or above the immediate-roll height. Although, as with draw, there are diminishing returns as you approach the miscue limit. For more info, see:

“How High or Low Should You Hit the Cue Ball?” (BD, September, 2011)​

With follow shots, cue elevation doesn't have any negative effect on the amount of follow, but it can reduce accuracy significantly. Even if the tip is just a hair off center (left or right) the swerve resulting from the cue elevation will push the CB off line. For more info, see:

follow shot accuracy​

Wow, if I studied this long enough I would play like a beginner again.

If that is the case, I strongly recommend that you ignore every bit of it.

Some people actually benefit from knowledge and understanding of pool principles. Is it necessary to play at a top level? Obviously not. Can it help many people improve their games? Most definitely. Do some people on this forum enjoy reasoned and logical discussions concerning how and why things happen at the table, and do they hope to learn from these discussion? Yes (not for all, but for many).

See:

knowledge can be useful, but you still need skill
physics "understanding" sometimes provides useful insight​

Knowledge and Understanding can be Powerful.

Regards,
Dave

 

[One Pocket John]

Pinning

CJ, when you talk about pinning are you saying that you are pinning the QB between the tip of the cue and the cloth during the forward stroke?

I'm practing what I believe to be pinning and at the same time thinking to myself "how would I explain to someone in writing what I'm doing and feeling when pinning." I cant come up with an explanation.

Maybe in your video for AZB you could demonstrate the process.

Thanks for your help. :smile:

John

 

[dr_dave]

Example.
2 power draw shots identical starting points, identical distance to the object ball, identical impact speed on the cueball.
1st one is done with the person's best draw stroke.
2nd one is done with a semi jacked up draw stroke.

Which one draws the ball better?

Answer, the jacked up one.

That's not true, unless the jacked-up stroke is hitting with more tip offset (from center ball) and/or with more speed. The explanation (backed up by both physics and actual play) can be found in this article:

"Draw Shot Physics - Part IV: cue elevation effects" (BD, July, 2009)​

Check it out.

Now, cue elevation does allow the CB to draw back at a sharper angle (AKA "quick draw"), and with less OB motion, and that is useful for certain types of shots (e.g., the ones shown in the article). For more info, see:

quick draw resource page​

It is true that the CB loses less (almost no) spin while it is airborne. However, the CB loses a greater amount of spin when it is driven down into the table with the cue elevation. The physics doesn't lie ... nor can it be "cheated." Now, some people might be using more tip offset and/or speed with the jacked-up stroke (maybe even without knowing it). That would certainly result in more draw action.

Now, sometimes you are forced to elevate due to closeness to a cushion, or to cue over a ball, or to avoid a double hit, but that's another story.

ok. First, I don't see any videos of jacked up draw shots.

The shots illustrated in the cue elevation effects article are demonstrated in VEPS-I. Sorry, but I don't have any online videos showing these; although, the shots are fairly easy to execute. Give them a try.

And quite frankly, I don't see explanations about how much friction is saved due to the time the ball is in the air, vs if it were struck with a level cue, and the speed of the shot that determines that.

Here's what I have in the article:

Some people think that with an elevated cue, the CB will be airborne during most of the shot, and therefore won’t be losing any spin on the way to the object ball (OB). The airborne part is true, especially for fast speed shots, because the cue elevation drives the CB into the table causing the ball to hop and bounce on the way to the OB. It is also true that the CB doesn’t lose significant spin while it is airborne (because there is no friction between the CB and the cloth). However, the CB loses significant spin during the hops, including the first hop when the CB is driven down into the table. The more you elevate the cue, the less spin the CB will have when it gets to the OB, for a given tip offset and cue speed.​

A more detailed explanation and a physics-based proof can be found here:

TP B.10 – Draw shot cue elevation effects​

WARNING: this document is not intended for a general audience. Full understanding requires a solid math and physics background. However, the plots on the 2nd to last page and the conclusions on the last page are fairly easy to understand. Check them out.

And based on your diagrams, it looks like the elevated cue you are talking about, looks like its a jump shot.

To get more quick draw effect, you need to elevate the cue more. The CB will certainly hop some, but not much with a playing cue and for the speeds used in those shots.

You also mention being close to the ball as in that diagram with the 5 ball, and that is way closer then I am talking about.

The advice and conclusions in the article and analysis pertain to a wide range of distances and shot speed. With long power draw shots, greater draw distance can be achieved by keeping the cue as cue as possible at CB impact. Here's a demonstration:

NV B.65 - Power draw technique advice from VEPS I​

Also, the analysis (and experience a the table) backs up the claims and advice. I encourage you and others to do your own experiment. I have, and I get much better draw with a level cue than I do with an elevated cue (using the same tip offset and cue speed for each shot). The physics doesn't lie ... and it can't be cheated.

When you post up some videos of the jacked up draw shots and the effects noticed, then we can discuss if you are doing it right or not, and the subsequent scientific explanation for it.

Sorry, but I don't feel that the burden of proof is on me. I've already provided more than enough videos, instructional articles, and a physics-based proof that back up my claims. I've also tried everything out at the table, which I encourage you and others to do. I think if somebody wants to claim or insist my statements and advice are incorrect, the burden of proof should be on them.

Regards,
Dave

 

[nobcitypool]

Nice try but still very incorrect. Why am I not surprised? If you're going to have me on ignore, quit stalking me. You're a very, very strange individual, that bothers me. Keep your obsession and nut hugging weirdness towards CJ and simply leave me alone.

Sorry you're jealous of people who can afford lessons and of qualified instructors such as Scott. Given the number of posts you make where you pretend to give "expert" advise, it is clear you wish you could be an instructor. Sorry, you clearly aren't qualified dude, you should quit doing so many people a dis-service by posting your stupid recommendations.

nob,

Like pool, I learned golf so many years ago that I can not remember my original reference source. (I guess we should ask for your reference sources in regards to anything that you say so as to suggest lying or mis-information. Seems like it's a common tactic for the 'Vigilante Committee')

However... thanks to the internet you can go to www.golfclubtechnology.com/gear.effect

Maybe you'll learn something. Maybe you'll learn that there are many things that you simply do NOT know, in spite of your immense EGO.

Speaking of nut hugging, how are Scott Lee's?
I just saw your 'advertisment' for him in your 'breaking' thread.
You have a direct connection to Scott Lee. I, however, have no such connection with CJ Wiley other than here on AZB & a couple of visits to his Facebook Page.

You're starting to look more & more like a stereotypical used car salesman for Scott Lee & the SPF system.
Or maybe you got a great deal & you just have to make a few 'payments'.

or

Does anyone else on AZB wonder about the possiblity of multiple identities?

Have a good evening, nob.


Best thing I ever did on AZB, for myself, was putting Neil on ignor.

The second best thing I ever did on AZB, for myself, was putting the insulting nobcitypool on ignor.

I never should have peeked.

Sorry all you used car salesman out there, I know most, if not all, of you are not the stereotypical used car salesman type.

 

[ENGLISH!]

If that is the case, I strongly recommend that you ignore every bit of it.

Some people actually benefit from knowledge and understanding of pool principles. Is it necessary to play at a top level? Obviously not. Can it help many people improve their games. Most definitely. Do some people on this forum enjoy reasoned and logical discussions concerning how and why things happen at the table, and do they hope to learn from these discussion? Yes (not for all, but for many).

See:

knowledge can be useful, but you still need skill
physics "understanding" sometimes provides useful insight​

Knowledge and Understanding can be Powerful.

Regards,
Dave

Dave,

I support the efforts & labor you have invested in bringing out so much of the science based knowledge regarding pocket billiards. The information that you have made so readily available can certainly be very useful & therefore is valuable to anyone wishing to employ such understanding.

I certainly can not speak for anyone else but it seems your work became the focus of a defensive mechanism in response to an onslaught of argument where techniques were being argued.

When your work is brought into the arguments it too can be subjected to the arguments. It's as though you need a disclaimer with every post.

While I know very much of the science, I am not that type of player that needs to know why it happens just that it does happen. That being said, it is still aways nice to have some understanding as to why.

Different strokes for different folks.

I personally appreciate all of your efforts & labor. I again take this opportunity to thank you once again for them & the 'tools' that they have brought to the AZB population.

Sincerely,

 

[mosconiac]

Sorry you're jealous of people who can afford lessons and of qualified instructors such as Scott.

Thanks for this...it clarifies your motives. Scott was also contesting/challenging CJ's coaching efforts. You've made it clear that you two are teaming up on CJ to discredit him...and ultimately retain the status of Scott's business.

 

[mosconiac]

Btw Neil, your comments about nut hugging are kind of creepy, ok? A world champ is giving out info. If you don't like it, don't read it. Nobody designated you to save the readers of this forum from another perspective. JoeW is right.

Perfectly worded. I could not agree more.

 

[mosconiac]

Interesting that "nobcitypool" & "Neil" are both deriding CJ in a similar way and using the same "nut hugging" slang for anyone that is interested in what CJ has to say...wonder if Neil's in cahoots with Scott too?!?!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Wow, if I studied this long enough I would play like a beginner again.

I can show so many reasons on the table that this chart is deceptive. First off the examples with a "level cue". Who uses a "level cue"? Certainly not Advanced or Pro players. Look at the first 2 shots (with Bustemante and Efren Reyes), he's cueing with low to "follow" the ball

I will assure you that no one that plays at a championship level would agree that this helps AT ALL in playing the game better. I don't understand why it's so important to make the game Confusing and Ambiguous?

We're ALL confused by them because they're designed to be confusing. You're just
trying to act like you know something (semantics) that doesn't
carry much weight to playing better. Discussing potential problems
without focusing on the solutions is a one way ticket to "pool
purgatory".

Many players (including myself) have reached
the highest levels without making the things you are showing here as "A BIG DEAL." It's very
simple how to adjust for deflection/hot mustard/squirt/sugar
spin/spicy ketchup/swerve/syrup spin/veer and whatever else you can come up
with to confuse curious players. These things are like the
"shank", slice, hook of golf - understood, but not dwelled on for developing
positive fundamentals and techniques.

The fact of
the matter is you can become a champion player by learning how to eliminate
these factors. Illustrating them to make them appear important to the game can be deceptive. Not to mention very unnecessary to developing and maturing as a pool
player, so you can reach the ultimate outcome "truly enjoying the Game".

Best post ever...................

 

[nobcitypool]

Thanks for this...it clarifies your motives. Scott was also contesting/challenging CJ's coaching efforts. You've made it clear that you two are teaming up on CJ to discredit him...and ultimately retain the status of Scott's business.

I don't team up with anybody, it's not a conspiracy. I can't help it if you and English both share the paranoia issues. It may have escaped you but there are multiple AZBers that have similar feelings. We're I you though, I'd be watching my rear view mirror, someone may be out to get you.

 

[Pay Up Sucker]

I"m saying they cue the ball low, almost to the botton and come up to create topspin or what's called "high english".

This gets a different reaction than simply hitting it above center, instead it's used to "Pin" the ball. The cue when this is done will naturally be close to level, but it won't start out that way, that's why you can see the tip is coming up to impart topspin.

Ok, so what you are saying is instead of cueing center ball and moving up to the 3/4 ball for follow they are cueing the bottom of the cue ball and moving up to half ball for follow.

Now this "pinning the ball" your talking about is a name for this particular follow technique or is it the name for top of the tip technique?

 

[TheThaiger]

Interesting that "nobcitypool" & "Neil" are both deriding CJ in a similar way and using the same "nut hugging" slang for anyone that is interested in what CJ has to say...wonder if Neil's in cahoots with Scott too?!?!

You must've noticed there's a clique at work here - trolls, I call them - that suck up to each other and shill the other's work and/or posts? It's quite obvious.

 

[nobcitypool]

Interesting that "nobcitypool" & "Neil" are both deriding CJ in a similar way and using the same "nut hugging" slang for anyone that is interested in what CJ has to say...wonder if Neil's in cahoots with Scott too?!?!

Yeah, kind of like English has used "real eyes" and "the teacher is the game" many times now. Oops, pardon me, I need to call Neil to form strategy on today's postings.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Nice try but still very incorrect. Why am I not surprised? If you're going to have me on ignore, quit stalking me. You're a very, very strange individual, that bothers me. Keep your obsession and nut hugging weirdness towards CJ and simply leave me alone.

Sorry you're jealous of people who can afford lessons and of qualified instructors such as Scott. Given the number of posts you make where you pretend to give "expert" advise, it is clear you wish you could be an instructor. Sorry, you clearly aren't qualified dude, you should quit doing so many people a dis-service by posting your stupid recommendations.

Self censored for the benefit of the general 'normal' population of AZB.

I invite everyone to go the website to make your own determination. www.golfclub-technology.com/gear.effect

nobcity, or who ever you are, you need help. I hope you get it soon. I'll continue to pray for you.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Thanks for this...it clarifies your motives. Scott was also contesting/challenging CJ's coaching efforts. You've made it clear that you two are teaming up on CJ to discredit him...and ultimately retain the status of Scott's business.

Tap! Tap! Tap!

'teaming up' or.... is he Scott Lee? He writes so very much like him.